Praytell is gloating over the fact that Pope Francis has approved the new Roman Missal in Italian. The biggest thing for them is that His Holiness, in contradiction to the Emeritus Pope, approved the used of the term "for all, per tutti" at the consecration of the Precious Blood.
Our new and glorious English translation, at the behest of Pope Benedict, has "for many."
Technically, "pro multis" could be translated into English, loosely as "for all" but more accurately it would be "for the multitudes" if you want an English word derived from the Latin. Or simply add "the" to "many", "for the many."
Evidently, too, the Italian Our Father has the novelty that Pope Francis desired and the Gloria has this little ditty: "Glory to God and to people beloved by God..."
And also there are additional Collects for the Sunday Mass according to the lectionary cycle, A, B, C. These are options in place of the one collect our current Roman Missal has. These are concocted collects.
It's all very sad to say the least unless you are the group that likes it. It boils down to taste and preferences. What a novel idea as it concerns the liturgy.
10 comments:
Well, these "new translations" will really pack the pews! It is difficult to take the Italian hierarchy with their "back to the 1970s" seriously.
The complaints over "for many" versus "for all" are silly.
First, there is simply the matter of being faithful to the verbiage being translated; it's not "translation" when you simply substitute ideas you like better.
Second, there is a lot of Scripture and history behind the words our Savior uttered at the Last Supper, which we translate, "for many," or really better, "for THE many," or as you say, "for the multitudes." The Lord went to great trouble to ensure that "all Scripture be fulfilled," and this is part of that; the language of "for the many" runs throughout Scripture, particularly in Isaiah, where we hear about the suffering servant.
Third, this whole business of complaining that "many" makes you feel bad, because it's not "all," is narcissistic. "All" and "many" do not form a natural contrast, at least in English. To illustrate, let's play a game where I suggested a word, and you were to reply with a natural partner-word:
I say "up," you say... (down, right?)
I say "left," you say...
I say "day," you say...
I say "all," you say...
Now, honestly, who -- playing that game, comes back with "many"?
But let's continue:
I say "many," you say...? I'm betting "few," right?
So that's the idea: Jesus dies for the MANY, as opposed to the...FEW.
Now, I'm only explaining what these words connote in English; and I'm only doing this to rebut the lachrymose complaints about translating the Latin text of Mass with "many." "Many" isn't about being less inclusive, it's not about that; it's about what the Latin prayers actually say, representing, as far as we know, what Jesus himself actually said.
Father Fox made a great response as always.
When I worked as a manager, one of my tasks was to write and/or edit reports. My mentor told me to avoid using absolutes like "all" and "each and every" etc. because all you had to do was find one exception and that would throw your point out.
The same people who like 'pro multis' translated 'for all' are probably the same people who think everyone immediately goes to Heaven for good when they die....no Purgatory or Hell.
Can you imagine what the Germans will do?
Fr Fox, may I expand on your point? It is easy for me to imagine that even the most ardent sinner, even a Satanist, upon beholding the majesty of the triune God at the moment of death will experience the most sincere contrition for a life of sin and sincerely confess the primacy of our God in all three Persons. But the flaw in that gem will always be the grain of sand in the soul of the sinner that hates and resents Our Lord for His relative position of authority. That is what will send a philanthropist, teacher, or even priest to Hell as surely as any number of other sins.
Sowing the sees of more discord and disunity. The sign of a true liberal.
The approved ICEL translation of the Roman Canon appeared in 1967, and was used (with a slight modification to conform to the Novus Ordo) until 2011. The original line was 'It will be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven.' The word 'men' was dropped some time later (1980s?).
The fact that it wasn't an accurate translation of 'pro multis' has to be seen in the context of the Canon as a whole, which did not set out to translate the Latin accurately.
Pope Benedict XVI wanted the German bishops to replace 'für alle' with 'für viele', but they demurred.
The French have the more accurate 'pour la multitude'.
All this is just confirmation that the NO is dying.
John said..."All this is just confirmation that the NO is dying."
Where?
Once again, not in Africa. The NO is booming in Africa. Packed pews. Packed seminaries.
Same in regard to the Church in Asia.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas
What do you mean by 'in Africa'? It's a vast continent and in many parts of it the Catholic Church does not figure very highly. In sub-Saharan Africa the greatest increase in Christians since 1970 is due to the influence of evangelical/pentecostalist protestant movements. It's their worship styles rather than the NO which appeal to Africans.
The Catholic Church has benefited in post-colonial Africa because it provides social services which are lacking since post-colonial governments are generally corrupt and incompetent. Again, nothing to do with liturgy, however 'inculturated' it tries to be.
As for Asia, it is a vast land mass and in most of it the Catholic Church is statistically insignificant.
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