"It seems short-sighted to brush aside the hunger of many young Christians for ritual and formality by branding it as imbecile nostalgia. Why not enable them to find within their own tradition a patrimony rightfully theirs?"
–Bishop Erik Varden, September 2024
19 comments:
Bishop Varden said..."Why not enable them to find within their own tradition a patrimony rightfully theirs?"
Pope Leo XIV has promoted the notion that said patrimony exists within the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI. Pope Leo XIV declared:
"The question about, people always say ‘the Latin Mass.’ Well, you can say Mass in Latin right now. If it’s the Vatican II rite there’s no problem.
"Again, we’ve become polarized, so that instead of being able to say, well, if we celebrate the Vatican II liturgy in a proper way, do you really find that much difference between this experience and that experience?"
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In regard to Pope Leo XIV's declaration in question: Via a different thread today, Father McDonald said:
"Pope Leo in his first lengthy interview as pope said that the (Bugnini) Novous Ordo Mass may be celebrated in Latin now. But is that true?"
Father McDonald has posed a fair question.
His Holiness has insisted that the traditional Roman Liturgical experience is available via the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Therefore, to ensure the validity of his desire to steer his spiritual children into the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, Pope Leo XIV must make good in regard to his declaration in question.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Bishop Varden said..."It seems short-sighted to brush aside the hunger of many young Christians for ritual and formality by branding it as imbecile nostalgia. Why not enable them to find within their own tradition a patrimony rightfully theirs?"
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Various "traditionalists" have attempted for decades to poison hearts and minds against the Holy Mass of Pope Paul VI.
Conversely, Holy Mother Church has, for decades, guaranteed that the Roman Liturgical Tradition exists within the Holy Mass of Pope Paul VI. Pope Leo XIV is our latest holy Pope to attest to that teaching.
In regard to the young folks whom Bishop Varden referenced:
The SSPX's determination, even without Papal mandate, to consecrate bishops has met with opposition among certain trads.
I hope that young Catholics who hunger for the Roman Liturgical Tradition will join those who recognize danger of the SSPX's destructive plan in question — a destructive plan that radtrads favor.
From there, may the young folks whom Bishop Varden referenced resist the radtrad nonsense that has long permeated the TLM Movement.
From there, may the young folks in question embrace Pope Leo XIV's tremendous support of the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI. Even if said young folks worship via the TLM, may they reject the radtrad war against the holy Mass in question.
May they reject the radtrad war against Vatican II. May the young Christians in question embrace Pope Benedict XVI's following teaching:
"Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books.
"The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness."
In line with Pope Benedict XVI: May the young Christians whom Bishop Varden has referenced recognize the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI's tremendous "value and holiness."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Respectfully, Mark, if you are implying from this that Leo XIV concluded the TLM shouldn't be made available to those who want it, you are just flat-out wrong and are (I assume unintentionally) misrepresenting Leo XIV. The Holy Father observed that the Novus Ordo can be said in Latin as part of a broader point that there is more to the liturgical issue than just the language. At *no* time in the interview you just quoted did Leo XIV even remotely hint, by his observation that the Novus Ordo can be said in Latin, that this is sufficient to solve the problem, and that those who desire the TLM should be satisfied with simply attending the Novus Ordo in Latin. He was, rather, making the broader point that there is more to this than the language.
I say this as someone who occasionally attends the TLM maybe 4 times a year, but otherwise goes daily to the Novus Ordo, prefers the Novus Ordo, and has gotten a ton of spiritual benefit out of the Novus Ordo. I do not understand why you are attempting to put words into the Holy Father's mouth that he never said. I personally think Benedict XVI's solution via Summorum Pontificum was the proper way to go. There is no reason why those who prefer the TLM shouldn't be able to have it, as an ancient and wonderful liturgy of Holy Mother Church.
Again, I just do not understand why you are continuing to claim that Leo XIV's comments show some sort of disagreement with Bishop Varden. They do not. I strongly encourage you to re-read what he said, very carefully. And while I fully agree with you that there are plenty of "rad-trads" that give a bad name to people who love the TLM, that is no reason to deny the TLM to those who love the Holy Father and who have received spiritual nourishment from it.
“What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.” Pope Benedict XVI
Taking speech lessons from Kamala Harris? LOL
Until you, MT, use your rare copy and paste commenting to zero in on the real threat to Church unity, the German Synodal Way and its heretical desire to upend the entire Catholic Church and make it something else, you have no credibility with your crocodile tears about those who want the TLM. Germany is the problem, not the TLM, Summorum Pontificum or even the FSSPX!
Bravo Father McDonald!
So....are you saying, Mark, that Varden is wrong? What's youre point?
ThomasMore1535,
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your charitable tone.
I recognize that Pope Leo XIV may accommodate in this, or that way, his spiritual children who desired the TLM. I will obey certainly any teaching(s) that His Holiness may render — liturgical, or otherwise.
I love the TLM. I do not oppose anybody who, with Church approval, assists at the TLM.
I recognize also the Church's Holy Ghost-inspired liturgical reform that enhanced the Roman Liturgy. The Church had determined decades ago the need to apply major liturgical reform to the Roman Liturgy.
Therefore, I agree with then-Cardinal Ratzinger's declaration that Pope Saint Paul VI's Roman Missal had "brought with it some authentic improvements and a real enrichment" to the Roman Liturgy.
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ThomasMore1535, I do not believe that I said that His Holiness disagreed with Bishop Varden.
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ThomasMore1535, peace and good health to you and your family.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
ThomasMore1535 said..."At *no* time in the interview you just quoted did Leo XIV even remotely hint, by his observation that the Novus Ordo can be said in Latin, that this is sufficient to solve the problem, and that those who desire the TLM should be satisfied with simply attending the Novus Ordo in Latin."
ThomasMore1535, I believe that Pope Leo XIV expressed to "traditionalists" the opportunity to experience the Roman Liturgical Tradition via the Holy Mass of Pope Paul VI.
To begin, from Pope Saint Paul VI to date, Holy Mother Church has guaranteed that the Roman Liturgical Tradition exists within the reformed Mass.
In regard to Pope Leo XIV's Crux interview in question:
In regard to the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI: Pope Leo XIV questioned why anybody would find it difficult to not experience the Roman Liturgical Tradition that one encounters within the TLM.
Pope Leo XIV:
"...if we celebrate the Vatican II liturgy in a proper way, do you really find that much difference between this experience and that experience?"
Pope Leo XIV also authorized the liturgical-related paper that Cardinal Roche had presented during last month's Consistory. That letter had made it clear that the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI contains the Roman Liturgical Tradition.
There isn't any question that Pope Leo XIV has made it clear that a "traditionalist," or anybody, may access the Roman Liturgical Tradition via the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
But that does not mean that Pope Leo XIV will not accommodate in a way that differs from current Church discipline those who desire to worship via the TLM.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
ThomasMore1535 said..."So....are you saying, Mark, that Varden is wrong? What's youre point?"
ThomasMore1535, thank you for your question.
My point is that I pray that the "young Christians" whom Bishop Varden identified do not fall for attempts to poison their hearts and minds against the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Within the TLM Movement, unfortunately, such attempts have proved numerous from 1969 A.D. to date.
I had stated that "may the young folks in question embrace Pope Leo XIV's tremendous support of the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI."
I stated also...very important: "Even if said young folks worship via the TLM, may they reject the radtrad war against the holy Mass in question."
"Even if said young folks worship via the TLM..."
Please note that I did not oppose their attendance at the TLM.
ThomasMore1535, thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald said..."Until you, MT, use your rare copy and paste commenting to zero in on the real threat to Church unity, the German Synodal Way...you have no credibility with your crocodile tears about those who want the TLM."
Father, I have not shed crocodile tears, or any so-called type of tears, "about those who want the TLM." I do not oppose attendance at Church-approved TLMs. We have an FSSP parish that has blessed me abundantly.
I was baptized via the Roman Rite as offered during Pope Saint John XXIII's reign. Despite Holy Mother Church's reform of said Rite, which I recognize as necessary, I love and respect said Rite.
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Father, I do not mean the following in smart-alec fashion:
My credibility rests upon whether I comment upon the German Synodal Way?
Why not base my credibility upon my opinions related to oh...President Trump's immigration policy versus Church teaching...or whether I comment upon the treatment of widows...or the financial mistreatment of workers?
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By the way, I have commented negatively upon the nonsense related to the German Synodal Way.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Pope Venerable Pius XII:
"It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification."
The above covered Pope Benedict XVI's replacement of the traditional Good Friday Prayer...despite earlier generations having held said traditional prayer as sacred.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Well there’s several cut and pasters no one will read!
In his reply above, Father mentioned MT's "rare copy and paste commenting." If only these comments were rare.
Some days on this blog I truly wish that there was a character limit when one comments. Today is one of those days. Time for an Excedrin.
"I recognize also the Church's Holy Ghost-inspired liturgical reform that enhanced the Roman Liturgy. The Church had determined decades ago the need to apply major liturgical reform to the Roman Liturgy."
The work of the reform was the work of men, not of the Holy Spirit. It may have been beneficial, or it may not have been, but it is blasphemous to attribute it to the Holy Spirit.
We also have to be precise at what happened decades ago. Vatican II called for a modest reform of the liturgy, one that respected tradition, not a major reform. That was the decision of Pope Paul VI following the recommendations of the Consilium and going against the limited mandate of the Council. And what Pope Paul reformed yesterday can be reformed again today.
It may be the right of the Sovereign Pontiff to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, but it is also the right of the faithful to let their opinions be known and seek redress of grievances. Obedience to the present rites does not require silence. If that were the case there would never have been a reform in the first place.
Lol! But the “Wisdom!”
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