Does ‘Traditionis custodes’ have a future?
Pope Francis restricted older liturgical forms. Will those restrictions last?
Above, I post the link to the Pillar's attempt to decipher what Cardinal Roche said about the Traditional Latin Mass recently. The author interviews the usual suspects about the possibility that Roche will relax Traditionis Custodes.
The liturgical terrorists don't see TC being relaxed by Roche or that he even meant that it might be. These terrorists don't want anyone to celebrate the TLM because God has spoken that the Modern Mass is what God wants. Talk about Catholic fundamentalism!
Of course, those friendly to the TLM see Roche as seeing the handwriting on the wall and that eventually Traditionis Custodes will be relaxed, if not replaced by Summorum Pontificum, as it should be. These sane liturgists aren't trying to forbid anyone from attending a Modern Mass. They, sanely enough, have a live and let live attitude about it!
My personal opinion, based upon my well-known clairvoyance, is that the liturgical wars that Pope Francis has reignited and bringing the Church backwards to the 1970's, not just in liturgy, but certainly in the liturgy wars, will be debated at the next conclave, perhaps held this year.
Sane cardinals, who are not liturgical terrorists, will want more of Summorum Pontificum and less of Traditionis Custodes.
Read the Pillar article above. The comments are good too and I will put forward my 2 cents worth about an all Latin Modern Mass verses an all vernacular Traditional Ancient Mass:
1. The modern Mass, be it in the vernacular or Latin, bombards the congregation and the priest with wordiness and constant out-loud speaking of prayers. Be it in Latin or the vernacular, the inability of the Modern Mass to create a mature spiritual appreciation for silence during the Mass, especially its prayers is quite evident. Modern Mass goers would not know what to do with a silent Canon and most of the priest's prayers prayed in a very low voice. They don't have the spiritual maturity to understand it or appreciate it. That's not their fault but the fault of the Modern Mass itself that has formed spiritually immature Catholics when it comes to silence.
2. I would promote the Traditional Ancient Mass allowing for a considerable amount of the vernacular, because the congregation would not even know that the priest his praying in his own tongue! All of the private prayers of the priests are silently prayed. No one would know he is using his vernacular. The Offertory Prayers as well as the Roman Canon is prayed quietly. No one would know that the priest is praying it in his own vernacular.
3. The Traditional Ancient Mass could be reformed by allowing the Liturgy of the Word to be in the vernacular and that the Liturgy of the Word be celebrated as it is in the Modern Mass, but making sure any lay readers are properly vested and officially instituted as lectors.
I think most parishioners would have no problem attending a vernacular Traditional Ancient Mass, but with all its rubrics concerning silence of certain prayers. They would have to adjust to a silent Roman Canon and grow in maturity to understand the Real Presence of God in that Grand Silence. That would take time and catechesis.
Most Catholics, traditional or otherwise, would not want an all Latin Modern Mass!
Most traditional Catholics, though, have no problem with the TLM celebrated as it is in Latin according to the 1962 Roman Missal.
11 comments:
TC is ultra vires and void ab initio
I would prefer an all Latin Mass - only the non sentient can’t follow the Missal with a vernacular translation. Our sacred musical treasures are lost with an all vernacular Mass. My late mother, a former Methodist and soloist in her church’s choir, said the greatest tragedy of the “reforms” was the loss of chant and sacred polyphony. Obviously converts readily see what many cradle Catholics cannot.
Father the Latin Mass with vernacular Epistle and Gospel was what we had in the 1965 Missal.THAT was what the Coucil Fathers intended, not the inadequacies of the current Missal.
In 2021 A.D., in a rare moment of his having treated Pope Francis fairly, New Catholic (Rorate Caeli) made it clear that Traditionis Custodes was not launched as a vicious attack against "traditionalists"/TLM.
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https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/09/francis-in-interview-actually.html
-- Francis, in interview: Actually, the Traditional Mass was not abolished, I just wanted a “constructive reordering” of Summorum Pontificum…
Pope Francis: "Then the subject was studied and based on that, the concern that appeared the most was that something that was done to help pastorally those who have lived a previous experience was being transformed into ideology. That is, from a pastoral thing to ideology.
"So, we had to react with clear norms. Clear norms that put a limit to those who had not lived that experience. And on the other hand, to support and consolidate Summorum Pontificum.
"I did more or less the outline, I had it studied and I worked, and I worked a lot, with traditionalist people of good sense. And the result was that pastoral care that must be taken, with some good limits."
"For example, that the proclamation of the Word be in a language that everyone understands...
"If you read the letter well and read the Decree well, you will see that it is simply a constructive reordering, with pastoral care and avoiding an excess..."
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It light of the above, it is disgraceful that certain "traditionalists" misrepresented Pope Francis/Traditionis Custodes.
Pope Francis has attempted to move said folks away from Satan. That is imperative as more than a few "traditionalists" have weaponized Summorum Pontificum against the Council, Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, as well as Magisterium.
Have said folks responded obediently to the holy correction that Pope Francis has offered via Traditionis Custodes? That leads to the following insight that A
“Of course, it’s possible that the effect of TC over time will be to quell the sectarian mentality to which traditionalist groups are so prone, which could lead to further revisions. But the astonishingly vicious reaction to TC gives little cause for hope.”
“I know many bishops who had little experience of traditionalism in their dioceses, but when they saw the response to TC completely understood why it was so necessary. For these reasons, I think TC is here to stay.”
Lol! MT, when you dissect how a priest saying the Novus Ordo in a bathing suit on a raft in the water is sacred and holy, holy, we’ll talk.
I remember the 60s so well.
Make the Mass “relevant” and “meaningful” - the two most overused words in the “Liturgists” lexicon. That worked well, didn’t it?
No need for Francis and reform apologists to respond. I’ve heard those losers lies for years. They are the only ones who believe them.
I had hit the "publish" button prior to my having completed my comment. With Father McDonald's permission, I wish to add the following:
Have said folks responded obediently to the holy correction that Pope Francis has offered via Traditionis Custodes? That leads to the following insight from Austen Ivereigh, as quoted by The Pillar:
“Bishops in those countries were concerned by the schismatic rhetoric of many traditionalist communities, or at least their vociferous leaders, in opposing the Second Vatican Council and the papal magisterium.
“Of course, it’s possible that the effect of TC over time will be to quell the sectarian mentality to which traditionalist groups are so prone, which could lead to further revisions. But the astonishingly vicious reaction to TC gives little cause for hope.
“I know many bishops who had little experience of traditionalism in their dioceses, but when they saw the response to TC completely understood why it was so necessary. For these reasons, I think TC is here to stay.”
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Unfortunately, at least among those who serve as TLM Movement leaders (most certainly, among those online), Mister Ivereigh had made clear that said folks have continued their vicious attacks in question.
Pope Francis' holy attempt to correct said folks has failed. T, at least among “Of course, it’s possible that the effect of TC over time will be to quell the sectarian mentality to which traditionalist groups are so prone, which could lead to further revisions. But the astonishingly vicious reaction to TC gives little cause for hope.
I have done it again. I had hit the "publish" button early.
My point is that speaking humanly, I find it difficult to disagree with the following from Austen Ivereigh:
"Of course, it’s possible that the effect of TC over time will be to quell the sectarian mentality to which traditionalist groups are so prone, which could lead to further revisions. But the astonishingly vicious reaction to TC gives little cause for hope.”
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Again, as New Catholic (Rorate Caeli) in 2021 A.D., via his rare moment of fairness to Pope Francis, had made clear, Traditionis Custodes is not an attack against Summorum Pontificum.
Unfortunately, TLM extremists have refused the holy correction that Pope Francis offered via Traditionis Custodes. Said folks have continued their Satanic war against the Council, "Novus Bogus," as well as Magisterium.
Nevertheless, as the FSSP has, for example, proclaimed, Pope Francis has continued to support the TLM.
May the following from Austen Ivereigh which, again, speaking humanly, is difficult to accept, nevertheless prove correct:
“Of course, it’s possible that the effect of TC over time will be to quell the sectarian mentality to which traditionalist groups are so prone, which could lead to further revisions."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
MT,
Show us your intellectual chops and respond to this:
1) MT, when you dissect how a priest saying the Novus Ordo in a bathing suit on a raft in the water is sacred and holy, holy, we’ll talk. Please explain how Pope Francis or the Vatican disciplined him.
2) Please explain this from Pope Benedict. "The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication. They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. (Ratzinger in Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104)." I would submit that is why Pope Benedict issued Summorum Pontificum, a holy, holy, holy document to begin the undoing of the devastation.
You come off as unhinged toady for the disastrous liturgical reform and a cruel pope.
FYI, Austen Ivereigh is a leftist and only respects fellow leftists like Francis.
The linked article from The Pillar quoted Austen Ivereigh as follows:
"...as was clear from the consultation of bishops, SP was a failed experiment."
Summorum Pontificum failed to establish the goals that Pope Benedict XVI had delineated via his letter that had accompanied Summorum Pontificum.
But I believe that it is important to note that the above was/is not Pope Benedict XVI's fault.
Summorum Pontificum had enraged numerous bishops. In turn, said bishops were not on board with Pope Benedict XVI's liturgical peace plan in question.
Numerous "traditionalists" insisted that Summorum Pontificum had been written poorly...was muddled...contained "lies" that Pope Benedict XVI had concocted to force an "impossible" peace between the "True Mass," and the "Jewish/Masonic/Protestant" Mass of Pope Paul VI that six Protestants had helped to invent supposedly.
That is the horrific situation with which holy Pope Benedict XVI had contended. That is the horrific situation that Pope Francis inherited.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
MT,
Actually, leftist Austen Ivereigh, is dead wrong. He hates the TLM so he is spinning propaganda. TC was issued precisely because Summorum Pontificum WAS successful and those old, bitter, leftists in the Hierarchy could not stand it. The Vatican NEVER released the actual bishops' surveys because it does not say what they hoped it would say. The Vatican just cherry-picked the information they wanted people to hear. If you believe them on this, I imagine you think the clerical sex scandals were made up.
In France, most people won't walk across the street for the Novus Ordo, but 60,000 French young people, marched from Paris to Chartres to see the TLM celebrated. 1% of Belgium Catholics attend Sunday Mass, so knock it off and address the 2 questions I posed to you. Cut and Paste drivel is not an argument.
MT,
The message has been received, loud and clear. You cannot refute Pope Benedict’s honest and legitimate criticism of the Novus Ordo. The rest of your posts are just a barrage of lies.
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