Of course I am speaking about Bishop Shawn McKnight who issued a very good document banning certain heterodox and just plain stupid music at Mass in his diocese. But there was a heterodox backlash and he relented. Not sure that was good, but he had common sense about which tree he wanted to die upon and heterodox music wasn’t it.
A bishop in my province has issued an incredibly stupid document and more incredibly, stupendously stupid talking points about doing away with a liturgy of the Church that has more than 1,500 years of tradition and the talking points suppose to give his logic for an incredibly and stupendously stupid decision
Perhaps this neophyte Bishop could learn from Bishop McKnight and rescind what is really a stupid decision and burn the talking points which are incredibly and stupendously condescending.
25 comments:
This bishop has been chastised online. Not ideal, neither was his decision.
I won't contribute towards the negativity speaking up for my suffering TLM brethren.
Bishop, if you read this, part of your flock just wants to attend mass and then, in the form Benedict XVI only a few short years ago said was okay.
Please reconsider how you are addressing their pastoral needs. A 2.5 hour drive one way, and with children in some instances, doesn't seem like the safest or most compassionate approach.
Thank you.
This Bishop will certainly be remembered …..for all the wrong reasons!
I credit Bishop Martin for saying the quiet parts out loud, such as:
-You damn trads just need to do penance for your selfishness.
-You damn trads could also just leave the Faith; that way, we can finally be united, just not with you.
-Even though you horrible rigid backwardists mostly "accept Vatican II," the fact that a few of you don't means you all need to suffer the consequences.
-You stupid trads just don't appreciate the miraculous reform that the Novus Ordo is.
-Your damn donations mean nothing to me.
-Don't you dare say anything on social media about this. It'll just make this PR headache worse for me.
-This former Bible church is just like that Pantheon, you ingrates!
-Only it's too small for all current TLM attendees, but that's actually the idea--the crappy location is meant to discourage attendance.
-I have no control over my diocese; I just do what my predecessor and Rome tell me to.
To the last point, if that's the case, why couldn't he be made redundant and there just be an encrypted email connection with Rome?
It's a bold strategy. Let's see if it pays off for him.
On the flip side, incompetent hirelings make me more grateful for my bishop, who is both careful and quietly very robust, as he would never pull a stunt like this.
Query: how soon, and to what degree, will Charlotte's vocation numbers tank, which up until now have been relatively strong? We saw a global decrease every year between 2013 and 2025; I'm sure such awkard coincidences can occur on the local level, too.
Nick
While I do not see any reason to limit the form of the Mass that we have used for over 1500 years, if bishops are going to insist that we must be limited to the present form of the Novus Ordo, then they should be held to the same standard: the present form of the Novus Ordo with all of its options, not one that restricts or eliminates those that would maintain our links with tradition.
In particular, the good bishops should acknowledge that a fully traditional form of the Novus Order is completely legitimate and welcomed in his diocese. Such a Mass would include 1) Mass in Latin, 2) Gregorian chant, 3) ad orientem worship, 4) exclusive use of the Roman Canon, 5) the traditional form of Communion, ie, on the tongue and kneeling, 6) use of fully installed and vested male only ministers, 7) no non-installed lay readers, and 8) no extraordinary ministers of Communion. All of this is already authorized by the present Missal.
I am not saying that all the Masses need to take this form but there is no reason that one such Mass should not be celebrated every Sunday in each parish, and not in a few limited token places and times. The restrictions on this form of the Novus Ordo is what has created the desire for the traditional Mass in the first place. While I still think that the traditional Mass is superior, if the form of the Novus Ordo I have outlined has been freely celebrated I believe there would never have been the increasing demand for the traditional Mass. Most people attracted to the old Mass would have been satisfied.
Anthony,
FYI, rumor has it that in June or July, Bishop Martin will prohibit parishes from doing... many of the things you've mentioned. We'll see if the rumors are true soon enough.
Nick
From the moment of then-Cardinal Robert Prevost's election as Pope, to this second, such prominent TLM Movement folks as Michael Matt have preached the following message to their fellow "traditionalists":
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Relax! We know that Pope Leo XIV is not a "traditionalist." He belongs to the Vatican II/Novus Ordo Revolution. Nevertheless, he may grant us a few favors in regard to the TLM. Therefore, let us hope for the best.
But when Pope Leo XIV teaches contrary to that which we (traditionalists) believe, then we will resist him to his face. That is what traditionalists do.
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Michael Matt reiterated that troubling message via his recent video: Michael Matt's Open Letter to Leo XIV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1njqlBQpp64
From the 12:20 to 12:45 marks, Michael Matt repeats that message. He claimed that "traditionalists" are Pope Leo XIV's most loyal sons.
Traditionalists will be "watching and praying that Peter's Faith will not fail him. If it does, then they will be left with no choice but to resist him to his face."
That is not what trads desire. But they will not hesitate to resist Pope Leo XIV to his face.
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The TLM Movement is marked, as well as marred, by the horrific spirit of rebellion against our Popes/Magisterium. More then a few "traditionalists" believe that God has empowered them to work for the "Novus Ordo Church's" destruction.
Michael Matt repeated a week or so ago the notion that "we (traditionalists) will win"...that God has tasked "traditionalists" to destroy the Council/Novus Ordo/Novus Ordo Church.
That horrific belief is alive and well within the TLM Movement. "Traditionalists" of that ilk will not cease to wage war against the so-called "Novus Ordo Church."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Lay people of a progressive bent have been telling popes and bishops to go and jump in the lake. Libreral Catholics whom have joined other Christian sects far outnumbered renegade traditionalists. But the problem is not with laity here, but bishops in Germany who make traditionalists here look like saints. MT do you homework on the greater threat, not traditionalists but progressive especially the bishops in Germany.
The bishop is evil, there I said it. He will answer to God!
Unfortunately, Bishop Martin is another example of the rotten fruit that comes from the Franciscans of Ellicott City, Maryland. I read some of their Catholic (sic) spiritual pamphlets a few years ago, and I was scandalized. Pure heterodox drivel. I wonder if Bishop Martin is on the rolls of the Association of United States Catholic Priests.
Fr. AJM,
To build on your comment, vast numbers of self-described Catholics support things like same-sex marriage, abortion, IVF, contraception, ordination of women, and on and on and on. Who knows how many priests and bishops do the same. We do know that many "progressive" laity, priests, and bishops implicitly or explicitly rebelled against the pope in no uncertain terms, starting no later than 1968 and continuing to 2013, possibly beyond.
One thing the anti-trad alarmists must maintain is the cognitive dissonance between the positions of "trads are so small in number, why should anyone care if they're unhappy" and "trads are so dangerous to the Church that it would be better if they simply left."
As for Michael Matt, refer to my previous comment: "Even though you horrible rigid backwardists mostly 'accept Vatican II,' the fact that a few of you don't means you all need to suffer the consequences."
And I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face: if this standard were applied to the Church at large, in the area of liturgy no less, 99% of Novus Ordo communities would be up for suppression for ignoring Sacrosanctum Concilium's mandates regarding sacred music, use of Latin, and against innovations and personal changes to the liturgy, not to mention papal directives such as Redemptionis Sacramentum.
Nick
"Michael Matt repeated a week or so ago the notion that "we (traditionalists) will win"...that God has tasked "traditionalists" to destroy the Council/Novus Ordo/Novus Ordo Church."
MT,
Care to post the full quote in context? Or any full, in-context quotes about the trad war on the Church?
Nick
Father McDonald said..."Lay people of a progressive bent have been telling popes and bishops to go and jump in the lake."
Father, you are correct.
Said folks deserve to hear the Truth. Therefore, in charitable fashion, we are called to offer holy correction to progressives who have trampled the Truth as preached by our Popes, as well as bishops in communion with our Popes.
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Father McDonald said..."But the problem is not with laity here, but bishops in Germany who make traditionalists here look like saints. MT do you homework on the greater threat, not traditionalists but progressive especially the bishops in Germany."
The situation in Germany is bad. Catholics in Germany who have discarded the Truth deserve to hear the Truth. Charitable correction is offered to said folks.
"Traditional" Catholics deserve to hear the Truth. If we value our confused brothers and sisters attached to the TLM Movement, then we will offer to said folks charitable correction.
"Traditionalists" deserve to hear that the notion that they trump Pope Leo XIV's awesome, God-given Magisterium, is false. Michael Matt, as well as "traditionalists" who have bought into his anti-Catholic pronouncements, deserve, to receive charitable correction.
They are God's children. If we care about them, then we will present to them the Truth.
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Father McDonald, the situation is not either/or. The Church deals with a multiplicity of issues simultaneously. The situation in Germany is dreadful.
But that does not mean that rebellions among traditionalists, as well as progressives, are to be ignored.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Again, the extent to which Michael Matt, as well as his ilk within the TLM Movement are confused, is mindboggling. They have informed Pope Leo XIV...
We ("traditionalists") are your most loyal sons. By the way, Your Holiness, when you teach, govern, and sanctify us in ways that we reject, we will resist you to your face.
Pope Leo XIV, we ("traditionalists") trump your God-given authority over us. Instead, we ("traditionalists") teach, govern, and sanctify you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Fr. Mark Thomas,
You are being disingenuous when you call members of TLM Movement to obedience to the Church and Vatican II when you yourself are not obedient. I challenge you to introduce a regular Sunday Mass as I have outlined above. All of this is not only approved by Vatican II but by the Novus Ordo itself. Vatican II explicitly called for the retention of Latin. Do you do so? Vatican II called for Gregorian chant to have pride of place. Does it at your parish? There have been many instructions not to use extraordinary ministers of Communion on a regular basis, but only when there is a real need. Have you violated this instruction? I remind you that altar girls and Communion on the hand was introduced through disobedience to the then norms for the distribution of Communion. Did you support this disobedience?
The present TLM is a direct result of the rejection of both the instructions of Vatican and the suppression of valid traditional options within the new Mass. Faithful Catholics have flocked to the traditional Latin Mass because they were denied a traditional form of the new Mass. What are you going to do about it?
Based on the “łogic” of Traditiones Custodes” the Novus Ordo must be suppressed.
To call it a”Sacrament of Unity” is a cruel joke. Depending on the priest who celebrates it you can experience a very different Mass. For starters, suppress all Eucharistic Prayers except the Roman Canon.
Anthony, I appreciate your reply.
Anthony, to begin, I love the TLM.
In regard to the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, I am on board with Holy Mother Church's approval of ad orientem worship, Latin, Gregorian Chant, reception of Holy Communion on the tongue (as well as kneeling)...whatever Holy Mother Church teaches.
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Anthony, in regard to your comment about "altar girls and Communion on the hand was introduced through disobedience to the then norms for the distribution of Communion. Did you support this disobedience?"
I support Holy Mother Church's teachings. I accept the Church's God-given authority to teach, govern, and sanctify me.
Beginning with Pope Saint Paul VI, our holy Popes have restored the ancient, traditional practice of Communion in the hand. Pope Saint John Paul II legitimized the practice of altar girls serving during Mass.
Popes Benedict XVI, Francis, as well as Leo XIV, are on board with said practices...as well as women readers during Mass...EMs...the Ecumenical Movement, interreligious dialogue, etc.
Again, Anthony, I am on board with the True Church...on board with the True Church's teachings.
Anthony, I pray that God will grant many holy, happy, and healthy years to you and your family.
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
It seems the time has arrived to consider making the TLM its own rite. Ridiculous use of resources based upon Benedict XVI's teachings - which I trust - but some/many bishops have demonstrated they aren't compassionate, they can't be trusted, they are too worldly and beholden to its ideologies.
TLM adherents deserve stability, WHICH the Church should fundamentally provide, not being isolated and battered like a fringe cult while others run wild and unchecked.
The Roman Church is failing its own while eating them alive. To do nothing would make all the nicey nice regarding the Eastern Catholic Churches just empty feel-good words.
Fr. Mark Thomas,
While these new practices are approved (and I do not dispute that), they are not mandated. Maintaining the traditional practices are also approved. You say that you are on board with the True Church, will you then implement a traditional form of the new Mass as a regular Sunday Mass for those of the faithful who want access to it? Such a form is approved by the Church. Are you on board with it?
I don’t think MT is a priest.
Noted.
Father McDonald said..."I don’t think MT is a priest."
I need to address that issue.
Anthony, Father McDonald is correct in that I am not a priest. I lack the holiness, intelligence, as well as additional positive traits to serve God as a priest.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Anthony said..."Maintaining the traditional practices are also approved. You say that you are on board with the True Church, will you then implement a traditional form of the new Mass as a regular Sunday Mass for those of the faithful who want access to it? Such a form is approved by the Church. Are you on board with it?"
Anthony, I am 100 percent on board with such a Mass.
I am on board with the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI offered in Latin, ad orientem, Holy Communion on the tongue/kneeling, altar rails, churches decorated beautifully, Gregorian Chant...
Again, I am also on board with the TLM.
Anthony, thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
It may surprise you that none of those things are requirements for ordination, or to put it another way, the lack of those qualities is not an impediment to ordination. There have been knavish bishops and priests since the first Twelve.
Nick
Great. Now help promote it among the priests and bishops as a way to heal the rift caused by the liturgy wars. If a traditional form of the Novus Ordo had been widely available from the beginning we would not have had the divisions in the Church that we see now, and we would not see so many of the faithful seeking relief in the TLM. BTW, sorry for thinking you were a priest.
Anthony said..."BTW, sorry for thinking you were a priest."
Anthony, you are fine.
I was flattered to have been thought of as a priest. I would have played along with your notion...but Father McDonald dropped a dime on me, and I had to come clean.
:-)
By the way, I am old, but I hope that I'm not the only one here who recalls that phrase...to "drop a dime" on someone.
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Anthony, seriously, again, I am not qualified remotely to serve God as a priest. Fortunately, God has called such holy men as Fathers McDonald, as well as Kavanaugh, to that holy task.
I am just a sinful nobody.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
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