These dang progressives love and support the Holy Father’s authoritarian edicts towards traditionalists but cry bloody murder when it is directed towards them! Such duplicitousness! Good for Pope Francis in leading the way for a truly traditional pope to act accordingly!
Delegate declares deadline in Syro-Malabar dispute, promises penalties
The pope's delegate to a liturgical dispute in India has said that penalties, including excommunication, could be soon issued for clerics not following papal directives.
15 comments:
My understanding of the issue is that when everyone else started facing the crowd rather than altar, so did lots of Syrio-Malabar churches, and nobody said anything contrary until recently, and the contrary has been ham fisted.
Meanwhile, generations have done it the new way and it is all they know and they are not taking the forced change well....as many priests here know from similar attempts at both facing the altar or offering Latin Masses in place of normally scheduled newer Mass.
There is no suprise in any of this...even priests here would strongly resist such changes. And that is because the novelties were tolerated in the first place, and it will take at least as long to shift back, even when done in the most diplomatic way possible, which still will only lengthen the time to complete the change...
unless the hierarchy is willing to say my way or the highway and be resigned to a much smaller Church, which resolve has been lacking for pretty much anyone's lifetime now.
With all the outrages happening with bishops and clergy throughout the world (promoting "same sex" marriage, female priests, bishops getting married, the Germans, et cetera, ad infinitum), Vatican officials are going to excommunicate a number of priests for facing "the wrong way" for about half an hour during the Liturgy, along with the faithful who follow them.
What a thing to excommunicate someone for at a time when you tolerate any number of sacrileges from others.
Some people in authority just never seem to learn from the Church's past.
Alexis Toth and Orestes Chornock revisited.
Abp Ireland is often referred to as the patron saint of Orthodoxy in America for what he did to St Alexis Toth.
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I can say is not in the spirit of that situation at all. Liturgy is a gift and should be treated as such, versus populum should have never taken off for any reason in the Syro Malabars, but sadly it happened. (A case of having authority and not using it by the local Syro Malabar bishops)
These priests are digging themselves in a hole they're not going to get out of.
Joe, I agree with you regarding liturgical posture. However, as you stated, the change is a fait accompli, and the priests and people obviously feel quite strongly about keeping the status quo. To excommunicate them for such a thing is beyond comprehension.
I'm aware of the history between Toth and Ireland. I'm GC, and our church would be a lot bigger if that event had never happened. A shameless contest of wills. It is the same thing here.
There is no reason why the status quo cannot be preserved, except for pride... on both sides. But I seriously doubt that Christ would want to see someone excommunicated for such a thing.
I pray that the priests in question will obey Pope Francis. Time and again, we have experienced the dreadful results that have flowed from the rejection of the Roman Pontiff's awesome authority to teach, govern, and sanctify the Holy People of God.
Peace, serenity, and holiness would flow should the priests in question submit to Pope Francis' God-given teaching authority. The priests in question should make the following their own:
Pope Saint Pius X:
"The Pope is the guardian of dogma and of morals...in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him...Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go..."
"...whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."
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In addition: From Vatican II: DECREE ON THE MINISTRY AND LIFE OF PRIESTS PRESBYTERORUM ORDINIS
-- Special Spiritual Requirements in the Life of a Priest
#15: "However, the priestly ministry, since it is the ministry of the Church itself, can only function in the hierarchical union of the whole body."
"Pastoral charity, therefore, urges priests, as they operate in the framework of this union, to dedicate their own will by obedience to the service of God and their fellow men."
******* "In a great spirit of faith, let them receive and execute whatever orders the holy father, their own bishop, or other superiors give or recommend." *******
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Taking a step back I am concerned about alienating Catholics in a country that is already persecuting them unofficially. Another step back asks why the Vatican is attempting to crush this group while kowtowing to the self proclaimed hierarchy of China?
This pope is what he complains about the most (which is trait that moralists often have, especially preachers). That the Holy Father is being so rigid about imposing a uniform posture by force as he was in imposing TC on the traditional community is beyond comprehension especially when he allows or encourages James Martin who promotes same sex marriage and/or blessings and everything else associated with the LGBTQ++++ ideologies. It just doesn’t add up.
He allows the most questionable inculturation in the the Mass from Africa, to the Amazon to Mexico, and yet if a community wants ad orientem or toward the people or the TLM, he goes crazy. It makes no sense unless craziness is the issue.
Father McDonald said...yet if a community wants ad orientem or toward the people or the TLM, he goes crazy."
Father McDonald, in my diocese, we have, with Pope Francis' approval, the TLM.
The TLM is offered in various places throughout the world.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald said..."He allows the most questionable inculturation in the the Mass from Africa, to the Amazon to Mexico..."
I have not found that the level to which Pope Francis has, in line with his predecessors, permitted inculturation is "questionable."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
MT,
LOL! How in God's name would you even know? Are you an expert liturgist? Do you know how to read and write in Latin? Do you have a thorough understanding of the development of the Roman Rite?
I think Father McDonald has a far better background to venture an informed opinion. Clearly, you do not. Presumption is a sin you know.
In regard to supposed "questionable" inculturation: Within the Traditional Catholic Movement: Pope Saint John Paul II was denounced repeatedly in regard to his practice of supposed "extreme" inculturation.
Perhaps the most "extreme" example of that came during a Papal Mass in New Guinea. I will not provide a link to the photograph in question. However, the caption reads:
"At a Mass said by John Paul II (third from left), the Epistle is read by a bare-breasted young native woman in paint and native garb."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Interesting that the Church seems incapable of enforcing norms, either traditional, or, more contemporary. Everyone always wants to do their own thing. Very protestant/schismatic.
To note, I find this type of resistance jarring from an Eastern perspective. Again, I'm very fortunate how uniformly norms are adhered to within my particular church.
Mark Thomas continues with his non answering mode. He can't handle a debate or facts which undermine his questionable views on things.
ByzRus,
I generally think Rome has the problem that it is so large it is nearly impossible to govern, it has a hard enough time governing itself, let alone others within it's jurisdiction.
This disobedience is quite alarming from an Eastern Perspective, especially since generally the approach isn't such a heavy emphasis on the letter of the law as such.
The question I often ask myself is, can we not help but to see the consequences of not correcting behaviour when it first goes astray, that it balloons to something like this?
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Agree. The problem is almost beyond repair, if not already there.
I've said before, so long as both VII and Paul's missal remain reference points (particularly the latter), all that Benedict had hoped would occur organically will remain unfulfilled.
In the East, we have our anomalies as well. Certainly the Indian/Thomasene Churches are prime examples. I seriously doubt the Maronites and Chaldeans current practices are aligned with tradition either. Fortunately, and in the Ruthenian Church, we adhere faithfully to rubrics and praxis.
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