In terms of discipline in the Church, I am in favor of subsidiarity. Leadership from Rome to dioceses should be authoritative but proposing not imposing.
Pope Francis often imposes his will from synodality which is never truly clarified, but creates a mess of division, to stopping the Traditional Latin Mass and now in India, ending Mass celebrated toward the people for the past 50 years in the Syro-Malabar Rite.
Yet, when there are truly schismatic cardinals, bishops and whole countries, they are encouraged to continue the schism.
In the past ten years, the Church, since Vatican II, has never experience such schizophrenia of leadership, authoritarian at times towards one aspect of Faithful Catholics and tolerant towards true schismatics such as those in Germany.
Pope Benedict XVI, truly a great pope, proposed but did not impose. He allowed in the most liberal way the TLM to be celebrated along with the other sacraments associated with its spirituality. But he did not stop the modern Mass. He proposed ad orientem for it, but did not impose it. He allowed bishops to be bishops and encouraged them in their responsibilities without micro managing them and their problems.
As it regards the Syro-Malabar Rite, if it had only been encouraged that their Liturgy be celebrated ad orientem but that facing the people was not forbidden, the horrible debacle there could have been averted. But authoritarian synodality and Rome’s obsession with rigidity in some liturgical cases, but not all, has caused a situation where priests will be declared to be in schism over this silly thing. Why couldn’t local bishops solve the problem by being flexible?
Here’s a great commentary from someone in India who wants Mass in his rite celebrated toward the people from Crux where you can read the whole commentary HERE:
Father Paul Thelakat, a former spokeperson for the Syro-Malabar Church who’s now sympathetic to the opposition, told Crux he’s surprised by Vasil’s threats, since Western Catholics have engaged in more doctrinally serious dissent without similar punishments.
“Pope Paul VI’s encyclical [Humanae Vitae] was questioned by national bishops’ conferences, and Pope Francis’ theological and pastoral stands have been questioned by cardinals,” he said. “The German church deviates from traditional Catholic positions. We [only] asked for something practiced uninterruptedly for half a century, and now we are told we are schismatic.”
“We always had deep love and allegiances to the pope, we’ve done nothing against our Catholicity,” Thelakat said. “Now they are making us schismatic so that they can punish us seriously.”
11 comments:
For the non brain dead, this is what is happening with ordinations in Europe:
A recent piece at the SSPX site deals with the “vertiginous” drop in priestly vocations in France, in particular, Switzerland and elsewhere in Europe. The figures they used are from the French bishops conference and other non-SSPX sources.
The numbers are dreadful, even for a pessimist.
The results will be disastrous, given the present madness about synodality (“walking together-ity”).
This vertiginous drop in the number of ecclesiastics leads to abuses that the next synod on synodality is very likely not to sanction, and perhaps even to condone. To compensate for the lack of priests in Switzerland, they will not hesitate to call on lay people. In La Nuova Bussola Quotidiana on June 16, 2023, Luisella Scrosati notes that in the canton of Basel, it is now usual for lay people to exercise priestly functions: they preach; they preside over a liturgy of the Word which completely replaces the Mass; and they baptize and celebrate marriages.
Pray for vocations.
I once preached a Forty Hours Devotion. WE NEED FORTY HOURS!
I said that Forty Hours was instituted to beg God to avert disasters from the Church and society. In that particular Forty Hours I preached about the disaster on the horizon from the lack of vocations to the priesthood and that that should be our focus during those days of Exposition, prayer, and litaniac procession.
On the other hand, groups using the traditional liturgical books, faithful to the Church’s teachings ( = “We are our rites!”) are growing and their seminaries are full.
PF, the wrecking ball!
Father McDonald said..."Pope Benedict XVI, truly a great pope, proposed but did not impose."
Pope Benedict XVI, as he had seen fit, "imposed" this and that upon the Church. When determined, Pope Benedict exercised his God-given awesome authority as the Supreme Pontiff. In said instances, Pope Benedict XVI refused to have budged even an inch from his rulings.
-- In regard to his having lifted the excommunications of the bishops ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre: Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged that he had been sadden by the fierce opposition that he had encountered.
"Some groups, on the other hand, openly accused the Pope of wanting to turn back the clock to before the Council: as a result, an avalanche of protests was unleashed...I was saddened by the fact that even Catholics who, after all, might have had a better knowledge of the situation, thought they had to attack me with open hostility."
Nevertheless, Pope Benedict XVI refused to have accommodated his fierce critics in question.
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-- Pope Benedict XVI encountered, in particular, among bishops, fierce opposition to Summorum Pontificum (SP): Regardless, he "imposed" SP upon the Church.
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-- Pope Benedict XVI encountered fierce opposition to his Assisi III gathering. He even permitted at the Basilica of Holy Mary of the Angels, voodoo warlock Wande Abimbola to chant a prayer to the strange god Olokun.
The SSPX, with Bishop Fellay's authorization, denounced Pope Benedict XVI as a blasphemer...as having committed grave sins and scandal. Regardless, Pope Benedict XVI "imposed" Assisi III upon the Church.
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-- Certain folks within the Church have claimed that the Council, Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, ecumenism, interreligious dialogue, Communion in the hand, altar girls, Mass vs. populum...had been imposed upon the Church.
Said folks have claimed that the laity had not requested the above. Nevertheless, throughout his reign, all of the above "impositions" had received Pope Benedict XVI's support.
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-- Pope Benedict XVI had authorized discussions with the SSPX. Said discussions collapsed as Pope Benedict XVI had imposed his will upon the SSPX — in regard most notably to the Council, as well as Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
In regard to the above, Pope Benedict XVI refused to have taken a step in the SSPX's direction.
Pope Benedict XVI did not hesitate to have imposed this or that upon us.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
LOL - so PF, your golden calf, has been reigning for the past 10 years and the Church is in free fall with the big meanie stomping on faithful TLM Catholics while doing nothing about the German heretics and appointing an abortion drooler to a Vatican post. Do you think, at all?
Here is an additional example of Pope Benedict XVI having imposed, rather than having proposed:
He imposed upon the Church his new Good Friday Prayer for the Jews. Many right-wingers were enraged at Pope Benedict XVI's imposition in question. Nevertheless, Pope Benedict XVI refused to have rescinded his new prayer for the Good Friday Liturgy.
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Additional example:
Pope Benedict XVI imposed upon priests of supposed TLM-only communities the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Pope Benedict XVI declared:
"Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books."
"The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness."
Pope Benedict XVI did not give the priests in question any choice in the matter.
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Again, whenever he had deemed fit, Pope Benedict XVI had not hesitated to have imposed, rather than having proposed.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I'm struggling with the following:
"As it regards the Syro-Malabar Rite, if it had only been encouraged that their Liturgy be celebrated ad orientem but that facing the people was not forbidden, the horrible debacle there could have been averted."
I agree with this suggestion in principle, however, wouldn't this compound balkanization across churches......or, Ordinariates for Everyone!!
Similar to the RCC, verses populum is not the tradition of the East and where it has crept in, and per VII, tradition should have been reclaimed by now. In the Ruthenian Church, latinizations had crept in, they weren't easily removed and there was some grumbling, but, nothing on close to this. I would say that at this juncture, particularly in newer parishes, our people yearn, I mean yearn for an Eastern Christian experience that's as orthodox and Orthodox as it can possibly be. My own parish has come years liturgically in terms of reclaiming our patrimony and I would humbly suggest that it, among many others in my Eparchy, are becoming if not already there, models for divine worship. I'm so very proud of what we've all accomplished.....together....our priests and supportive laity.....to get to this point.
If the Catholic Church cannot even action what VII called for, given the deification that has occurred regarding this Council, isn't it getting to be hopeless - just allow the free-for-all and be done with it already??
In regard to Father McDonald's declaration that Pope Benedict XVI proposed, rather than imposed: I wish to be fair in that matter. I had countered Father McDonald's declaration in question via numerous examples of Pope Benedict XVI having imposed, rather than having proposed.
But the fact is that Father McDonald, in his way, is correct. I, in my way, am correct.
That is, Pope Benedict XVI's record is mixed in regard to his having proposed/imposed this and that. In turn, that had led to the following criticism of Pope Benedict XVI:
Speaking generally, right-wingers, as well as left-wingers, portrayed Pope Benedict XVI's governance of the Church as inconsistent, weak, and, ineffectual. Even among certain of his staunchest allies, that was said folks' view of Pope Benedict XVI.
Example: In 2013 A.D., at the end of Pope Benedict XVI's Pontificate, Cardinal Pell offered the following criticism:
-- Australia's top Catholic, Cardinal George Pell, criticizes Pope Benedict XVI on last day
https://theworld.org/stories/2013-02-28/australias-top-catholic-cardinal-george-pell-criticizes-pope-benedict-xvi-last
BRISBANE, Australia — Australia's most senior Catholic, Cardinal George Pell, criticized Pope Benedict XVI on the eve of his departure from the Vatican, describing his resignation as destabilizing and his governance as flawed.
The Telegraph cited Pell as saying on Australian TV that while Benedict was a "brilliant teacher" ... "government wasn't his strong point. I think I prefer somebody who can lead the Church and pull it together a bit."
"I think the governance is done by most of the people around the Pope and that wasn't always done brilliantly. And I'm not breaking any ground there — this is said very commonly." This from a man whom, according to the ABC, "has been one of Benedict's strongest allies."
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The following is almost certainly the most prominent example of Father McDonald, and I, as having, each in our way, been correct:
Pope Benedict XVI had imposed Summorum upon the Church. He had done so in the face of fierce opposition within the Church — in particular, from bishops. However, when bishop upon bishop had rejected, or, at best, implemented Summorum Pontificum in mere lip-service fashion, Pope Benedict XVI had turned into a mere proposer.
That is, despite pleas for help addressed to him from traditionalist Catholics, Pope Benedict XVI had done little, if anything, at least publicly, to push bishops to comply with Summorum Pontificum.
I am unaware as to why Pope Benedict had acted that way. I do not in any way attack him in that regard. But Pope Benedict XVI had sometimes, even in regard to the same issue (example: Summorum Pontificum), proposed/imposed.
Summorum Pontificum collapsed in failure ultimately. That said, in fairness to Pope Benedict XVI: I am not certain that a powerful response from him to the widespread rejection among bishops to Summorum Pontificum would have saved SP.
Among many traditionalists, their horrific misrepresentation, as well as rejection of Summorum Pontificum, had also assisted greatly in having doomed Summorum Pontificum to failure.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Blather boy keeps ignoring inconvenient facts. So let’s ignore him.
In his final years in buenos aires, how many ordinations were there by Francis
In his final years in buenos aires, how many ordinations were there by Francis
and for the brain dead, here is a reminder to bishops and priests that abortion is the raison d'etre of the modern Democratic Party because it is almost their minions in the Media write about 24/7:
"Abortion bans are unpopular. So unpopular that Republican extremists [being pro life is being an extremist?] seem to have to invent conspiracy theories to trick Americans into voting for them.
That’s the major takeaway from recent political battles in Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. In all three states, abortion-related ballot initiatives and elections were framed by right-wing groups as the only thing standing between parents and “trans ideology” in the classroom.
In Ohio, political ads intoned that malicious entities from out of state were arriving to “encourage sex changes for kids.” In Wisconsin, Republicans distributed a video that claimed a child was “transitioned into a boy by school officials without parental consent.” And in Michigan, millions of dollars went into ads that warned “minors as young as 10 or 11” could be sterilized without “their parents even knowing.”
So priests and bishops who vote for them are purchasing a one way ticket to Hell and they are committing sacrilege upon entering the sanctuary to celebrate Mass
These same bishops and priests can't deal with this reality that their Party is causing:
"Repelled by rampant crime, high taxes and exorbitant housing costs, financial firms managing $2 trillion in assets have left New York and California for Texas, Florida and other Sun Belt states where the cost of living is as much as 40% cheaper, Bloomberg reports."
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