WHY ARE SOME CATHOLICS DRAWN TO PROTESTANT NON DENOMINATIONAL PRAISE AND WORSHIP SERVICES?
How can Catholics abandon the true worship of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for this? I ask; you answer:
37 comments:
60's Survivor
said...
I recently visited a youth "church" to try to recruit a few young people for a job. If I thought the atmosphere of the Catholic liturgy had declined, this made the folk Mass look benign. There was very little preaching and it was mostly music. Electronic instruments and people looking very much like the photo you have published here. It madam think of another acquaintance of mine whose wife is protestant and still attends protestant services. He tells her, "that's not church. It's Christian entertainment."
If this is all that my church had to offer me, I believe I would die of despair.
Well, when "with-it" Catholic parishes have been trying to ape these sorts of worship services for decades (and failed miserably at it), it isn't difficult to wonder how people see no difference between the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass—which no longer looks either "holy" or "sacrificial" beneath the multiple layers of liturgical anarchy to be found in the average U.S. parish—and any other Christian community's worship.
A common theme I have also heard, particularly among women, is that they are drawn to such communities because of the "activities", or the "great programs" (e.g., Bible studies, fellowship groups) they offer. I don't know what it is like in the rest of the U.S., but here in a fairly rural part of the country, we seem to be living in a post-denominational age. No one here really cares about the theological differences between Catholics, Lutherans (although Luther himself would surely have condemned most ELCA pastors as heretics), Methodists, Reformed, et cetera, any longer. Rather, it is entirely for the most part about how one "feels" in a given community. So people simply church shop until they find one that feels "right" to them. There really doesn't seem to be any deep theological reasons for why apostate Catholics I have encountered stopped practicing and went to another community.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Doctrine and dogma and right worship no longer matter to rank and file Christians of whatever ilk. It is how something feels and the people with whom they connect and being entertained by what their feelings they think is inspirational and thus of the spirit. It is horizontal.
Agreed. I read a few months ago that "Rudy" Ruettiger, the subject of the popular football film, became a Mormon, after spending most of his life as a Catholic. I'd be willing to bet that the main reason he converted was because of the way he was treated by Mormons and the way their "church" makes him feel.
1. Start with St. Augustine: "You move us to delight in praising You; for You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You."
We have an innate desire to one with God, so people are drawn to an experience that, in their view, brings about that connection. The true and necessary desire to be united with God is what moves anyone to seek God, whether that means finding Him in the beauty of nature, the Praise and Worship services of non-denom congregations, in the broken, homeless drug addict on my front porch, or in the celebration of the mass.
Don't discount what is ours by virtue of our being created I God's image and likeness.
2. Americans, and, possibly, many in Western culture, have come to value two things above, maybe, all else. The first is INDIVIDUALISM. This takes many forms, but basically it takes form as "You can't tell me what to do." "Don't tell me my children are misbehaving." "Don't tell me I can't park in the fire lane or pass on a double yellow line or play my car stereo at eardrum-shattering levels." "Don't tell me I have to pay my fair share of taxes." And, here's the biggie, "Don't tell me I am a sinner and that true repentance means changing the way I behave, not simply 'accepting Jesus' as my 'personal Lord and Savior.'"
The second highest value is BEING ENTERTAINED. The more mindless the form of the entertainment, the more I am distanced from the realities of this world. When I am "entertained" I don't have to encounter and deal with reality, mainly the reality of my own faults and failures. I can spend hours and hours and thousands of dollars watching and attending sporting events, musical extravaganzas, I can shell out vast amounts and travel weekend after weekend for my children's sport teams I can buy bigger and bigger houses and cars and vacations, and wardrobes - all to keep me from having to attend to the things that really matter. These things are, of course, faith, hope, and love.
3. While my experience of non-denom Praise and Worship events is very, very limited, I suspect that many Catholics and others, are drawn to these events because 1) they do not present attendees with the challenge to acknowledge sin and be redeemed by grace, and 2) they find them entertaining.
If INDIVIDUALISM and ENTERTAINMENT are what people want, they will gravitate to religious expressions that fulfill those desires.
Longer: If the Catholic Mass they're accustomed to is just a mediocre imitation of a Protestant service, but with crummy music any Prot would be ashamed of, why not go for the real thing?
My guess is that the VII experience revealed that the hierarchy did not even take the faith seriously, and there has been continuous evidence to that effect ever since And better music.
It’s unusual and very welcomed when I agree with Fr. MJK. Thank you for the posting and for the response, Fathers. I read the following this morning that may also provide a back drop, particularly for Catholics:
“A recent study shows that Catholics are second only to Jews in the ineffectiveness of passing on their religious tradition and heritage. A recent poll concerning religious attitudes in America shows that most Americans favor a radical tolerance in regard to religious beliefs. It also shows a shocking ignorance in regard to belief systems, dogmas, and the history of one’s own religion.” —Auxiliary Bishop Robert Barron
There's an episode of King of the Hill, a popular animated series, in which the main character, concerned for his son, allows him to go to a youth pastor who has basically co-opted and Christianized the youth culture. His son attends a Christian rock festival against his wishes. When he arrives, he gives the youth pastor a profound assessment of the problem:
"You're not making Christianity better! You're making rock and roll worse!"
All the comments thus far have had good points to offer. Fr K makes a particularly good point with entertainment. Many people want to have a strong inner experience of worship, which this kind of modern entertainment brings. It may be mainly on the level of the sensuous stimulating the emotions, but it does have some short lasting effect, after which one needs more such stimulation, part of the addictive nature of modern entertainment that is founded on the attractiveness of novelty. Stimulating the emotions without regard to addressing the intellect in matters of Faith is a successful formula that attracts many.
As for individualism, recall that Vatican II made individualism a quasi doctrine by its ramblings on religious freedom and individual conscience, intensifying the demise of true worship in Faith.
Unless you have ZERO aesthetic appreciation, no form of worship provides greater entertainment (and spiritual) value than a solemn Latin High Mass with clergy properly vested, Gregorian Chant and polyphony perfectly executed. The typical OF is a major league snorer. Snore, snore, snore
Talk about lack of introspection and self-knowledge:
“A recent study shows that Catholics are second only to Jews in the ineffectiveness of passing on their religious tradition and heritage. A recent poll concerning religious attitudes in America shows that most Americans favor a radical tolerance in regard to religious beliefs. It also shows a shocking ignorance in regard to belief systems, dogmas, and the history of one’s own religion.” —Auxiliary Bishop Robert Barron
The hierarchy and the implementation of Vatican Disaster II is at the heart of the crisis. Bishops and priests worked tirelessly to destroy Catholic tradition and heritage or was the dumbing down of the Mass and the Wreckovations of our Churches a figment of our collective imaginations. Sorry Bishop Barron, no sale. Look in the mirror.
Protestant style P&W is actively promoted in a lot of parishes. Personally I detest it, it is annoying. Oddly I don’t object to guitar or folk Mass, as long as the music doesn’t interfere with what the Priest is suppose to say or what the parishioners are supposed to say. I have often wondered which side the musicians belong to. I place them with parishioners, P&W places them with the ordained. To me that is wrong.
I spent ten years away from the Catholic Church in my youth, most of it as an exuberant Pentecostal, and a short time as a sober Evangelical, before returning to the Catholic Faith. So this is something I know a lot about from experience.
There is something very powerful and attractive about a personal encounter with God. This is something many Catholics seldom or never talk about -- although we are talking about it more. When I was a freshman in college in 1980, I encountered this idea for the first time among Evangelicals and Pentecostals, although Catholic charismatics were talking about it too. Most, if not all, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, Holiness folks (these terms are notably distinct, even if it's all Greek to outsiders) all center their faith on that personal encounter. The altar call; the sinner's prayer. The preaching tends to be in that direction.
And the enthusiastic, on-fire participants in these movements tend to be involved in activities that are all about fostering that encounter. That's what the Bible studies are about. And many of them learn to steer conversations toward that. Just as many Catholics know -- or used to know -- how to baptize in an emergency, these folks are taught to know how to lead someone to Christ in a moment of crisis or need.
Add to this a great deal of emphasis on emotional openness, because that can make that encounter happen. Hence "praise and worship." Many of these churches, despite thinking of themselves as "non liturgical" will have their own sort of liturgy. The service may begin with a hymn, and there may be an opening prayer (or not), but there will be a lot of praise and worship. That may lead into a time of unguided prayer, with soft music playing but no one talking or leading, and people in the assembly are encouraged and habituated to offering their own responses to God, praise and petitions, or even groans and tears. If it is a Pentecostal or charismatic setting, there may well be some glossalalia and then some "interpretations" or else exhortations without speaking in tongues beforehand. After all this settles down, there may be some prayers for specific needs, or else to the sermon. There may be more praise-and-worship after the sermon.
If the setting is not Pentecostal or charismatic, there won't be any speaking in tongues, but there is likely to be some exuberant vocal and physical responses to the music. This is termed worship. In some settings, the vocal and physical responses will be more subdued; it's all about what's customary in that congregation or denomination. (I might add as an aside that I am not describing all Evangelical or Fundamentalist or Holiness traditions; many of them would be much more button-down. But this phenomenon seems to cut across these categories.)
At any rate, this was my experience 30 years ago. I think it's very likely that these things go in cycles; that is, a movement might have been pretty deep into this sort of ecstatic, free-form worship, and then it becomes much more sober later on. Meanwhile, some other church comes to town and we're back to the tongues and being slain in the spirit. People will move from church to church for all the reasons you can think of, but among them will be to seek out this greater "authenticity."
To be clear, I have no intention of demeaning any of this.
But back to the question, which was explaining the appeal of this. And I reiterate: the experience of a personal encounter with God. This sort of experience, when you enter into it, works on you powerfully. I never went to a lot of music concerts over the years, but there is something of this sort of emotional vulnerability when you are part of many thousands of people entering into the music of Zak Brown or Kansas or whatever group you may prefer. That emotional vulnerability can be dangerous, but it can also be healing. Such emotional vulnerability happens lots of ways, and it can be the ground for lifelong friendships of great intensity. Think of people who were in combat together, or on sports teams, or who went through a crisis or trauma together.
No doubt many people will say, I have no need for anything like that. Nevertheless, many very staid and button-down people will suddenly discover this sort of thing and leap into it, either permanently or for a time.
The key, again, is the personal encounter with the Living God. If that comes in a quiet moment of prayer, or if it comes as it came for St. Augustine, or if it comes in the context of a raucous prayer meeting, you're going to take the whole package, because that's how it came to you.
For me, I simply got worn out by trying to be emotionally "up" week in, week out; and along the way -- during my 8 or so years as a Pentecostal -- I worked through many of my "issues" with the Catholic Faith. Being away helped me see it differently. I ended up in that staid Evangelical church as a waystation home, although I didn't realize that at the time.
TJM - I think it is entirely mistaken to label the mass in either the OF or EF as "entertainment." I would say that a beautifully celebrated mass in either form is about as far from entertainment as we get on this side of the tombstone.
Much entertainment is meant to produce escape or mindlessness. The mass is 100% about being real and being mindful.
Entertainment, an experience, an encounter, etc., whichever adjective you prefer.
Yes, when at the EF with glorious music there is enchantment, my mind and heart is uplifted, I escape into the presence of the Divine. At the typical banal, dry, OF, I keep looking at my watch to know when my purgatory is over. The typical OF compells my attendence ONLY because it is my religious obligation.
I imagine for some Evangelicals or Crossroads/Vineyard folks, there may well be an entertainment angle to their Sunday worship. But don't be too quick to label it that.
Remember, many of these folks either never experienced the Holy Mass, or else rarely, or else if they did, they really didn't understand what they experienced. Very likely, what they experienced was often dreadful, given our times. In other words, many of these people do not really know what worship is. Yet they, like all of us, need it and long for it.
An atavistic experience with appealing music and lots of fervent faith on display all around you, among hundreds, or maybe thousands, of like-minded people is a pretty powerful experience; and it is all that many people know of as "worship." Don't fault or demean them for wanting to lose themselves into God. That is a good desire.
Fr. Fox, fascinating! Thanks for sharing this. We have years of sitting in the pews with Catholic Charismatics, and have many friends in that Community. In respect of them, we attended some prayer group activities with them years back in 1985. Your descriptions totally match our experience there. We were even “baptized in the Holy Spirit”. Had we been younger and without children, we might have been drawn in. It was a very powerful time spiritually, but you are correct that the commitment was exhausting; particularly so from a geographic distance, and trying to raise several small children to be serious Catholics, and maintain our professional lives in medical fields. It finally came down to what we could honestly do. In our particular case, we realized that commitment to Community would probably have weakened our commitment to our Church in terms of time, talent and treasure. This is not to denigrate all those fine Christians in Community—they are genuinely good people working in the Vineyard of the Lord.
TJM - Understanding the mass, EF or OF, as an experience of "escape" is also, I think, mistaken.
The mass draws us into, rather than taking us away from, the reality of who we are and who God is. THE reality is God, in Whose presence we can most completely stand during the celebration of the mass, and in Whose presence we can most completely be our true selves.
When mass becomes an "escape" then it is being used as entertainment, a distraction from that which is most real. To be in the presence of the Divine is to be most completely grounded in our earthly existence with all the "Gaudium et spes, luctus et angor" (Gaudium et spes, no 1, Second Vatican Council) that is part of who we mortals are.
Although not my cup of musical tea, I do understand the appral of such an event. I think it is intended to replace thought with feeling. One of the most annoying things about the NO music theory is that it is almost always as disconnected from the Mass as the homily. P&W embraces this idea and ejects the prayers, except for the ad hoc, altogether and retains just the fun parts. Why can’t the P&W crowd crank up the amps AFTER Mass in the parish hall or local Peace Museum? My friends and I can gather at the local brewery for brunch and sit in the beer garten with our banjos, fiddles, and mandolins and sing songs where sinners feel the wrath of God as a consequence of their actions in a much easier to sing along tempo and key. I am always suspicious of people who want you to srop thinking.
What is missing from the current Catholic Church is mysticism. When I looked up the definition of mysticism it said: "Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God."
I agree with Fr. Fox. People want a direct experience of God, to know and feel Him directly. When denied the mystical, the supernatural, they seem to gravitate to a form of emotionalism in seeking Him, where they cry out to God in song and praise, wanting so much to hear His voice. Sometimes they hear it. But soon the pseudo-mystical experience wears them out, and they fall away from that too (sort of what Fr. Fox described.)
It seems to me what the implementation of Vatican II has done most effectively, and on purpose, is to eradicate the mystical from the Mass. Modern theologians were embarrassed by the mystical, which they thought to be superstitiousness, and did everything to debunk it. The clerics of our modern times became hyper-rational, and were ashamed of the mystical experience of God that was so common among Catholics of the Middle Ages. Modern clerics have replaced mysticism with psychology. It's a horrible trade.
The way the Novus Ordo is celebrated these days is often sterile. If the Novus Ordo is celebrated with devotion and true worship of God, it is still possible to enter into deep prayer at Mass and speak to God from the heart. But if the priest makes the Mass a show, or a community meeting, from my experience it is almost impossible to speak to God during it.
Prior generations (prior to the Baby Boomers) of simple, often uneducated people, went to Mass and followed the doctrines and dogma of the Church, and they experienced a solid, albeit quiet, presence of God in their daily lives. They were able to weather many trials and tragedies because of it. They believed in the mystical presence of God and the saints. God was as near as their prayer books and rosaries and devotions and Mass on Sunday and Holy Days.
But the educated (the scientist saying, "Can you prove it? Can you prove it? If not, it's fantasy.") were far too sophisticated to believe such nonsense, and that denial crept into theology, and seminaries, and so Christ Crucified and risen and coming to us in a mystical way to this very day, which is an absurdity to the Greeks (per St. Paul in 1Corinthians), became an embarrassment to many clerics in the Church as well.
People are drawn to the hope of finding God. If they don't find God in a Catholic Church (because most parishes don't offer that anymore), they follow the hope they will find Him in a Protestant one, or in another religion.
Here's a news flash for you. At the typical OF Mass one is left with the distinct impression that God, the Divine, is secondary to us and our big group hug approach to Liturgy. Sorry, but what you're selling the majority of Catholics are no longer buying. Sad
Actually, what Fr Kavanaugh expressed has a lot of truth about it. A hundred and ten years ago at the London Oratory on Easter Sunday, those who gathered opposite the choir gallery to be entertained by the likes of Gounod's 'Messe des Orphéonistes' were distinctly nonplussed when they heard Palestrina's 'Missa Papae Marcelli'.
Yet the first time I heard Gounod's 'Messe de Ste Cécile' was at the London Oratory about 35 years ago, and the Sanctus moved me to tears.
But I didn't see it as 'entertainment', nor did Charles Gounod when he composed it. I came across it in the liturgical context for which it was designed. Like the 'Viennese' masses of Mozart, Haydn and Hummel, it can be performed out of context, but inevitably loses something thereby.
Gregorian chant is rarely performed out of context as it grew alongside the Roman liturgy and is 'proper' to it (in the sense that it is 'owned' by it) and makes little sense when divorced from it.
The French word for entertainment is 'divertissement'. It also can mean 'misappropriation'.
Perhaps when one speaks of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, using the term "entertainment" might not be the best choice. Perhaps the EF Solemn High Mass is more "engaging" than the typical dry biscuit aka Sunday Novus Ordo. All of the senses are engaged at the EF I have described. My senses are generally repelled at the typical Sunday Novus Ordo and I am very happy when it's over. But I am not invested in the liturgical failure like Kavanaugh is.
Here is how I perceive the five senses of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch at the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
One SEES the dwindling numbers of people, primarily the elderly, the wreckovated altar, ambo, the entertainer in chief's chair, sadly recalling how magnificent and Catholic the sanctuary once looked.
One hardly ever SMELLS the incense and the stubby little candles hardly ever emit any aroma.
One HEARS the words of the lector (not needed), the cantor (not needed), the priest (who makes it up as he goes along rather badly), the choir and the music which is generally execrable and would hardly be deemed to meet the test of Sacrosanctum Concilium which grants Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony pride of place.
One TASTES the elements of bread and wine (never, because I choose not to risk my health on the wine) that have become the Body and Blood of Jesus.
One TOUCHES the hymnal (no, because Gather is filled with non-Catholic music), the hand of the person greeted with the sign of peace (no, the handshake of peace is a meaningless gesture), the arm of the elderly friend needing assistance (well I am worn out because the elderly constitute the bulk of the congregation).
All five (which are repellent as typically found in the standard Sunday Novus Ordo Mass)
To pursue Bee’s theme of “mysticism” and the “mystical,” may I recommend that you try to leave your own Ego, your own little false self, outside in the Church parking lot and instead try to journey inward during Mass in order to come closer to your true Self and to the God within you and on the altar, in Whose image we were made and Whose likeness we seek to become. I am not saying this is easy to do; it isn’t. But perhaps you could try to remain “open” to being surprised by God, even in the NO Mass that you detest so much. One technique that may help is to close your eyes and pray the Mass as best you can as you hear the words, spoken or sung—but try not to nod off as your being relaxes into the experience!
This may not work for everyone, of course, and may only suit a particular kind of contemplative personality. But you could at least try it and see. Perhaps others have additional suggestions for what you could try. One thing I am pretty sure is not helpful is to attend Mass with our Ego full of resentment and negativity because the Mass is not to our “liking” for this, that, or the other reason.
TJM - Calling Anonymous 2 judgmental is as preposterous as anything you have posted here.
The entire collection of you words on this blog is nothing if not judgmental. You condemn, you vilify, you make crude accusations - your repertoire take "querelous" to new levels.
As Anonymous indicates, I certainly did not intend to be judgmental in my comment. I am sincerely trying to help. Each of us wages a constant daily battle with our ego, our little false self. I know I do. One special time and place where I can experience some relief from its constant demands and assertions is, at least so it seems to me and thanks be to God, through the practice of interiority during Mass. This is a great gift for which I am learning to be truly grateful, whatever the form of the Mass, whatever the music, etc.
Thank you for your thoughful response. You sound like a man of good will.
The Novus Ordo unfortunately, in my opinion, leaves little space for interiority. It is a constant hectoring, say this, sing that, do this, do that, etc. The EF in this regard is far, far superior. Once the Holy Mass begins it is on autopilot with no need for instruction or direction by a lay carnival barker.
I was baptized as a member of the Catholic Church in the early 1950s when it once was a great, universal Church when even Hollywood respected the Church. I was trained in the EF. My parish was in the vanguard of the Liturgical Movement. I could chant by heart, 5 Latin Ordinaries by the time I was 10. The Missa Cantata was the norm. My parents, who were not raised that way in the 1930s and 1940s but by the time I came along, even they began to recite the Latin prayers and chant the responses. We were shocked by the liturgical iconoclastic destruction of our Mass and sanctuaries in the 1960s. No one cared about our sensibilities.
The EF has a transcendent and ethereal quality that unfortunately, the OF, as commonly celebrated, does not have. I have a confession to make. THe one change that I approved of was the removal of the Last Gospel which seemed anti-clamactic and out of place. I love that Gospel but I am sure hardened traditionalists will attack me for this admission. But the collapsing of the Kyrie from 9 to 6, was absolutely silly and harmed the structural integrity of the marvelous Gregorian Chants we had sung for hundreds of years.
I believe the proof is in the pudding. And the Novus Ordo has simply not attracted the Faithful, it might be fairly asserted that it has chased them away. I avoid it whenever possible.
I believe the proof is in the pudding. And the Novus Ordo has simply not attracted the Faithful, it might be fairly asserted that it has chased them away.
Anything can be "asserted," but I doubt that it can be shown to be true.
Something like 80% of American Catholics attended Sunday Mass prior to the Council. With the "new and improved" Mass, it's around 20% and dropping. Such a Springtime
37 comments:
I recently visited a youth "church" to try to recruit a few young people for a job. If I thought the atmosphere of the Catholic liturgy had declined, this made the folk Mass look benign. There was very little preaching and it was mostly music. Electronic instruments and people looking very much like the photo you have published here. It madam think of another acquaintance of mine whose wife is protestant and still attends protestant services. He tells her, "that's not church. It's Christian entertainment."
If this is all that my church had to offer me, I believe I would die of despair.
Well, when "with-it" Catholic parishes have been trying to ape these sorts of worship services for decades (and failed miserably at it), it isn't difficult to wonder how people see no difference between the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass—which no longer looks either "holy" or "sacrificial" beneath the multiple layers of liturgical anarchy to be found in the average U.S. parish—and any other Christian community's worship.
A common theme I have also heard, particularly among women, is that they are drawn to such communities because of the "activities", or the "great programs" (e.g., Bible studies, fellowship groups) they offer. I don't know what it is like in the rest of the U.S., but here in a fairly rural part of the country, we seem to be living in a post-denominational age. No one here really cares about the theological differences between Catholics, Lutherans (although Luther himself would surely have condemned most ELCA pastors as heretics), Methodists, Reformed, et cetera, any longer. Rather, it is entirely for the most part about how one "feels" in a given community. So people simply church shop until they find one that feels "right" to them. There really doesn't seem to be any deep theological reasons for why apostate Catholics I have encountered stopped practicing and went to another community.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Doctrine and dogma and right worship no longer matter to rank and file Christians of whatever ilk. It is how something feels and the people with whom they connect and being entertained by what their feelings they think is inspirational and thus of the spirit. It is horizontal.
Agreed. I read a few months ago that "Rudy" Ruettiger, the subject of the popular football film, became a Mormon, after spending most of his life as a Catholic. I'd be willing to bet that the main reason he converted was because of the way he was treated by Mormons and the way their "church" makes him feel.
1. Start with St. Augustine: "You move us to delight in praising You; for You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You."
We have an innate desire to one with God, so people are drawn to an experience that, in their view, brings about that connection. The true and necessary desire to be united with God is what moves anyone to seek God, whether that means finding Him in the beauty of nature, the Praise and Worship services of non-denom congregations, in the broken, homeless drug addict on my front porch, or in the celebration of the mass.
Don't discount what is ours by virtue of our being created I God's image and likeness.
2. Americans, and, possibly, many in Western culture, have come to value two things above, maybe, all else. The first is INDIVIDUALISM. This takes many forms, but basically it takes form as "You can't tell me what to do." "Don't tell me my children are misbehaving." "Don't tell me I can't park in the fire lane or pass on a double yellow line or play my car stereo at eardrum-shattering levels." "Don't tell me I have to pay my fair share of taxes." And, here's the biggie, "Don't tell me I am a sinner and that true repentance means changing the way I behave, not simply 'accepting Jesus' as my 'personal Lord and Savior.'"
The second highest value is BEING ENTERTAINED. The more mindless the form of the entertainment, the more I am distanced from the realities of this world. When I am "entertained" I don't have to encounter and deal with reality, mainly the reality of my own faults and failures. I can spend hours and hours and thousands of dollars watching and attending sporting events, musical extravaganzas, I can shell out vast amounts and travel weekend after weekend for my children's sport teams I can buy bigger and bigger houses and cars and vacations, and wardrobes - all to keep me from having to attend to the things that really matter. These things are, of course, faith, hope, and love.
3. While my experience of non-denom Praise and Worship events is very, very limited, I suspect that many Catholics and others, are drawn to these events because 1) they do not present attendees with the challenge to acknowledge sin and be redeemed by grace, and 2) they find them entertaining.
If INDIVIDUALISM and ENTERTAINMENT are what people want, they will gravitate to religious expressions that fulfill those desires.
Short answer: Because they're not real Catholics.
Longer: If the Catholic Mass they're accustomed to is just a mediocre imitation of a Protestant service, but with crummy music any Prot would be ashamed of, why not go for the real thing?
My guess is that the VII experience revealed that the hierarchy did not even take the faith seriously, and there has been continuous evidence to that effect ever since
And better music.
It’s unusual and very welcomed when I agree with Fr. MJK. Thank you for the posting and for the response, Fathers.
I read the following this morning that may also provide a back drop, particularly for Catholics:
“A recent study shows that Catholics are second only to Jews in the ineffectiveness of passing on their religious tradition and heritage. A recent poll concerning religious attitudes in America shows that most Americans favor a radical tolerance in regard to religious beliefs. It also shows a shocking ignorance in regard to belief systems, dogmas, and the history of one’s own religion.”
—Auxiliary Bishop Robert Barron
There's an episode of King of the Hill, a popular animated series, in which the main character, concerned for his son, allows him to go to a youth pastor who has basically co-opted and Christianized the youth culture. His son attends a Christian rock festival against his wishes. When he arrives, he gives the youth pastor a profound assessment of the problem:
"You're not making Christianity better! You're making rock and roll worse!"
zero exposure to the real deal - the EF
All the comments thus far have had good points to offer. Fr K makes a particularly good point with entertainment. Many people want to have a strong inner experience of worship, which this kind of modern entertainment brings. It may be mainly on the level of the sensuous stimulating the emotions, but it does have some short lasting effect, after which one needs more such stimulation, part of the addictive nature of modern entertainment that is founded on the attractiveness of novelty. Stimulating the emotions without regard to addressing the intellect in matters of Faith is a successful formula that attracts many.
As for individualism, recall that Vatican II made individualism a quasi doctrine by its ramblings on religious freedom and individual conscience, intensifying the demise of true worship in Faith.
Kavanaugh,
Unless you have ZERO aesthetic appreciation, no form of worship provides greater entertainment (and spiritual) value than a solemn Latin High Mass with clergy properly vested, Gregorian Chant and polyphony perfectly executed. The typical OF is a major league snorer. Snore, snore, snore
Talk about lack of introspection and self-knowledge:
“A recent study shows that Catholics are second only to Jews in the ineffectiveness of passing on their religious tradition and heritage. A recent poll concerning religious attitudes in America shows that most Americans favor a radical tolerance in regard to religious beliefs. It also shows a shocking ignorance in regard to belief systems, dogmas, and the history of one’s own religion.”
—Auxiliary Bishop Robert Barron
The hierarchy and the implementation of Vatican Disaster II is at the heart of the crisis. Bishops and priests worked tirelessly to destroy Catholic tradition and heritage or was the dumbing down of the Mass and the Wreckovations of our Churches a figment of our collective imaginations. Sorry Bishop Barron, no sale. Look in the mirror.
Protestant style P&W is actively promoted in a lot of parishes. Personally I detest it, it is annoying. Oddly I don’t object to guitar or folk Mass, as long as the music doesn’t interfere with what the Priest is suppose to say or what the parishioners are supposed to say. I have often wondered which side the musicians belong to. I place them with parishioners, P&W places them with the ordained. To me that is wrong.
I spent ten years away from the Catholic Church in my youth, most of it as an exuberant Pentecostal, and a short time as a sober Evangelical, before returning to the Catholic Faith. So this is something I know a lot about from experience.
There is something very powerful and attractive about a personal encounter with God. This is something many Catholics seldom or never talk about -- although we are talking about it more. When I was a freshman in college in 1980, I encountered this idea for the first time among Evangelicals and Pentecostals, although Catholic charismatics were talking about it too. Most, if not all, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, Holiness folks (these terms are notably distinct, even if it's all Greek to outsiders) all center their faith on that personal encounter. The altar call; the sinner's prayer. The preaching tends to be in that direction.
And the enthusiastic, on-fire participants in these movements tend to be involved in activities that are all about fostering that encounter. That's what the Bible studies are about. And many of them learn to steer conversations toward that. Just as many Catholics know -- or used to know -- how to baptize in an emergency, these folks are taught to know how to lead someone to Christ in a moment of crisis or need.
(Continued...)
Add to this a great deal of emphasis on emotional openness, because that can make that encounter happen. Hence "praise and worship." Many of these churches, despite thinking of themselves as "non liturgical" will have their own sort of liturgy. The service may begin with a hymn, and there may be an opening prayer (or not), but there will be a lot of praise and worship. That may lead into a time of unguided prayer, with soft music playing but no one talking or leading, and people in the assembly are encouraged and habituated to offering their own responses to God, praise and petitions, or even groans and tears. If it is a Pentecostal or charismatic setting, there may well be some glossalalia and then some "interpretations" or else exhortations without speaking in tongues beforehand. After all this settles down, there may be some prayers for specific needs, or else to the sermon.
There may be more praise-and-worship after the sermon.
If the setting is not Pentecostal or charismatic, there won't be any speaking in tongues, but there is likely to be some exuberant vocal and physical responses to the music. This is termed worship. In some settings, the vocal and physical responses will be more subdued; it's all about what's customary in that congregation or denomination. (I might add as an aside that I am not describing all Evangelical or Fundamentalist or Holiness traditions; many of them would be much more button-down. But this phenomenon seems to cut across these categories.)
At any rate, this was my experience 30 years ago. I think it's very likely that these things go in cycles; that is, a movement might have been pretty deep into this sort of ecstatic, free-form worship, and then it becomes much more sober later on. Meanwhile, some other church comes to town and we're back to the tongues and being slain in the spirit. People will move from church to church for all the reasons you can think of, but among them will be to seek out this greater "authenticity."
To be clear, I have no intention of demeaning any of this.
But back to the question, which was explaining the appeal of this. And I reiterate: the experience of a personal encounter with God. This sort of experience, when you enter into it, works on you powerfully. I never went to a lot of music concerts over the years, but there is something of this sort of emotional vulnerability when you are part of many thousands of people entering into the music of Zak Brown or Kansas or whatever group you may prefer. That emotional vulnerability can be dangerous, but it can also be healing. Such emotional vulnerability happens lots of ways, and it can be the ground for lifelong friendships of great intensity. Think of people who were in combat together, or on sports teams, or who went through a crisis or trauma together.
No doubt many people will say, I have no need for anything like that. Nevertheless, many very staid and button-down people will suddenly discover this sort of thing and leap into it, either permanently or for a time.
The key, again, is the personal encounter with the Living God. If that comes in a quiet moment of prayer, or if it comes as it came for St. Augustine, or if it comes in the context of a raucous prayer meeting, you're going to take the whole package, because that's how it came to you.
For me, I simply got worn out by trying to be emotionally "up" week in, week out; and along the way -- during my 8 or so years as a Pentecostal -- I worked through many of my "issues" with the Catholic Faith. Being away helped me see it differently. I ended up in that staid Evangelical church as a waystation home, although I didn't realize that at the time.
TJM - I think it is entirely mistaken to label the mass in either the OF or EF as "entertainment." I would say that a beautifully celebrated mass in either form is about as far from entertainment as we get on this side of the tombstone.
Much entertainment is meant to produce escape or mindlessness. The mass is 100% about being real and being mindful.
Kavanaugh,
Entertainment, an experience, an encounter, etc., whichever adjective you prefer.
Yes, when at the EF with glorious music there is enchantment, my mind and heart is uplifted, I escape into the presence of the Divine. At the typical banal, dry, OF, I keep looking at my watch to know when my purgatory is over. The typical OF compells my attendence ONLY because it is my religious obligation.
About the "entertainment" angle...
I imagine for some Evangelicals or Crossroads/Vineyard folks, there may well be an entertainment angle to their Sunday worship. But don't be too quick to label it that.
Remember, many of these folks either never experienced the Holy Mass, or else rarely, or else if they did, they really didn't understand what they experienced. Very likely, what they experienced was often dreadful, given our times. In other words, many of these people do not really know what worship is. Yet they, like all of us, need it and long for it.
An atavistic experience with appealing music and lots of fervent faith on display all around you, among hundreds, or maybe thousands, of like-minded people is a pretty powerful experience; and it is all that many people know of as "worship." Don't fault or demean them for wanting to lose themselves into God. That is a good desire.
Fr. Fox, fascinating! Thanks for sharing this.
We have years of sitting in the pews with Catholic Charismatics, and have many friends in that Community. In respect of them, we attended some prayer group activities with them years back in 1985. Your descriptions totally match our experience there. We were even “baptized in the Holy Spirit”. Had we been younger and without children, we might have been drawn in. It was a very powerful time spiritually, but you are correct that the commitment was exhausting; particularly so from a geographic distance, and trying to raise several small children to be serious Catholics, and maintain our professional lives in medical fields. It finally came down to what we could honestly do. In our particular case, we realized that commitment to Community would probably have weakened our commitment to our Church in terms of time, talent and treasure. This is not to denigrate all those fine Christians in Community—they are genuinely good people working in the Vineyard of the Lord.
TJM - Understanding the mass, EF or OF, as an experience of "escape" is also, I think, mistaken.
The mass draws us into, rather than taking us away from, the reality of who we are and who God is. THE reality is God, in Whose presence we can most completely stand during the celebration of the mass, and in Whose presence we can most completely be our true selves.
When mass becomes an "escape" then it is being used as entertainment, a distraction from that which is most real. To be in the presence of the Divine is to be most completely grounded in our earthly existence with all the "Gaudium et spes, luctus et angor" (Gaudium et spes, no 1, Second Vatican Council) that is part of who we mortals are.
Catholics should be able to experience peace and prayerful contemplation in their churches and during Mass.
Although not my cup of musical tea, I do understand the appral of such an event. I think it is intended to replace thought with feeling. One of the most annoying things about the NO music theory is that it is almost always as disconnected from the Mass as the homily. P&W embraces this idea and ejects the prayers, except for the ad hoc, altogether and retains just the fun parts. Why can’t the P&W crowd crank up the amps AFTER Mass in the parish hall or local Peace Museum? My friends and I can gather at the local brewery for brunch and sit in the beer garten with our banjos, fiddles, and mandolins and sing songs where sinners feel the wrath of God as a consequence of their actions in a much easier to sing along tempo and key. I am always suspicious of people who want you to srop thinking.
Bee here:
What is missing from the current Catholic Church is mysticism. When I looked up the definition of mysticism it said: "Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God."
I agree with Fr. Fox. People want a direct experience of God, to know and feel Him directly. When denied the mystical, the supernatural, they seem to gravitate to a form of emotionalism in seeking Him, where they cry out to God in song and praise, wanting so much to hear His voice. Sometimes they hear it. But soon the pseudo-mystical experience wears them out, and they fall away from that too (sort of what Fr. Fox described.)
It seems to me what the implementation of Vatican II has done most effectively, and on purpose, is to eradicate the mystical from the Mass. Modern theologians were embarrassed by the mystical, which they thought to be superstitiousness, and did everything to debunk it. The clerics of our modern times became hyper-rational, and were ashamed of the mystical experience of God that was so common among Catholics of the Middle Ages. Modern clerics have replaced mysticism with psychology. It's a horrible trade.
The way the Novus Ordo is celebrated these days is often sterile. If the Novus Ordo is celebrated with devotion and true worship of God, it is still possible to enter into deep prayer at Mass and speak to God from the heart. But if the priest makes the Mass a show, or a community meeting, from my experience it is almost impossible to speak to God during it.
Prior generations (prior to the Baby Boomers) of simple, often uneducated people, went to Mass and followed the doctrines and dogma of the Church, and they experienced a solid, albeit quiet, presence of God in their daily lives. They were able to weather many trials and tragedies because of it. They believed in the mystical presence of God and the saints. God was as near as their prayer books and rosaries and devotions and Mass on Sunday and Holy Days.
But the educated (the scientist saying, "Can you prove it? Can you prove it? If not, it's fantasy.") were far too sophisticated to believe such nonsense, and that denial crept into theology, and seminaries, and so Christ Crucified and risen and coming to us in a mystical way to this very day, which is an absurdity to the Greeks (per St. Paul in 1Corinthians), became an embarrassment to many clerics in the Church as well.
People are drawn to the hope of finding God. If they don't find God in a Catholic Church (because most parishes don't offer that anymore), they follow the hope they will find Him in a Protestant one, or in another religion.
God bless.
Bee
Kavanaugh,
Here's a news flash for you. At the typical OF Mass one is left with the distinct impression that God, the Divine, is secondary to us and our big group hug approach to Liturgy. Sorry, but what you're selling the majority of Catholics are no longer buying. Sad
Bee,
Beautifully expressed but you will never convince folks like Kanavaugh who are deeply invested in the failed Liturgy.
TJM
Actually, what Fr Kavanaugh expressed has a lot of truth about it. A hundred and ten years ago at the London Oratory on Easter Sunday, those who gathered opposite the choir gallery to be entertained by the likes of Gounod's 'Messe des Orphéonistes' were distinctly nonplussed when they heard Palestrina's 'Missa Papae Marcelli'.
Yet the first time I heard Gounod's 'Messe de Ste Cécile' was at the London Oratory about 35 years ago, and the Sanctus moved me to tears.
But I didn't see it as 'entertainment', nor did Charles Gounod when he composed it. I came across it in the liturgical context for which it was designed. Like the 'Viennese' masses of Mozart, Haydn and Hummel, it can be performed out of context, but inevitably loses something thereby.
Gregorian chant is rarely performed out of context as it grew alongside the Roman liturgy and is 'proper' to it (in the sense that it is 'owned' by it) and makes little sense when divorced from it.
The French word for entertainment is 'divertissement'. It also can mean 'misappropriation'.
John Nolan,
Perhaps when one speaks of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, using the term "entertainment" might not be the best choice. Perhaps the EF Solemn High Mass is more "engaging" than the typical dry biscuit aka Sunday Novus Ordo. All of the senses are engaged at the EF I have described. My senses are generally repelled at the typical Sunday Novus Ordo and I am very happy when it's over. But I am not invested in the liturgical failure like Kavanaugh is.
The five senses of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch are engaged in the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
One SEES the people, the altar, the ambo, the celebrant's chair.
One SMELLS the incense and the candle aroma.
One HEARS the words of the lector, the cantor, the priest, the choir, the music.
One TASTES the elements of bread and wine that have become the Body and Blood of Jesus.
One TOUCHES the hymnal, the hand of the person greeted with the sign of peace, the arm of the elderly friend needing assistance.
All five.
Anonymous Kavaugh,
Here is how I perceive the five senses of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch at the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
One SEES the dwindling numbers of people, primarily the elderly, the wreckovated altar, ambo, the entertainer in chief's chair, sadly recalling how magnificent and Catholic the sanctuary once looked.
One hardly ever SMELLS the incense and the stubby little candles hardly ever emit any aroma.
One HEARS the words of the lector (not needed), the cantor (not needed), the priest (who makes it up as he goes along rather badly), the choir and the music which is generally execrable and would hardly be deemed to meet the test of Sacrosanctum Concilium which grants Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony pride of place.
One TASTES the elements of bread and wine (never, because I choose not to risk my health on the wine) that have become the Body and Blood of Jesus.
One TOUCHES the hymnal (no, because Gather is filled with non-Catholic music), the hand of the person greeted with the sign of peace (no, the handshake of peace is a meaningless gesture), the arm of the elderly friend needing assistance (well I am worn out because the elderly constitute the bulk of the congregation).
All five (which are repellent as typically found in the standard Sunday Novus Ordo Mass)
Sad
TJM:
To pursue Bee’s theme of “mysticism” and the “mystical,” may I recommend that you try to leave your own Ego, your own little false self, outside in the Church parking lot and instead try to journey inward during Mass in order to come closer to your true Self and to the God within you and on the altar, in Whose image we were made and Whose likeness we seek to become. I am not saying this is easy to do; it isn’t. But perhaps you could try to remain “open” to being surprised by God, even in the NO Mass that you detest so much. One technique that may help is to close your eyes and pray the Mass as best you can as you hear the words, spoken or sung—but try not to nod off as your being relaxes into the experience!
This may not work for everyone, of course, and may only suit a particular kind of contemplative personality. But you could at least try it and see. Perhaps others have additional suggestions for what you could try. One thing I am pretty sure is not helpful is to attend Mass with our Ego full of resentment and negativity because the Mass is not to our “liking” for this, that, or the other reason.
Anonymous 2,
When the priest leaves his ego in the parking lot, I may give it a try. You sound very judgmental, the most serious sin in lib world.
TJM - Calling Anonymous 2 judgmental is as preposterous as anything you have posted here.
The entire collection of you words on this blog is nothing if not judgmental. You condemn, you vilify, you make crude accusations - your repertoire take "querelous" to new levels.
Your response now will be but a contiunation.
TJM:
As Anonymous indicates, I certainly did not intend to be judgmental in my comment. I am sincerely trying to help. Each of us wages a constant daily battle with our ego, our little false self. I know I do. One special time and place where I can experience some relief from its constant demands and assertions is, at least so it seems to me and thanks be to God, through the practice of interiority during Mass. This is a great gift for which I am learning to be truly grateful, whatever the form of the Mass, whatever the music, etc.
Anonymous 2,
Thank you for your thoughful response. You sound like a man of good will.
The Novus Ordo unfortunately, in my opinion, leaves little space for interiority. It is a constant hectoring, say this, sing that, do this, do that, etc. The EF in this regard is far, far superior. Once the Holy Mass begins it is on autopilot with no need for instruction or direction by a lay carnival barker.
I was baptized as a member of the Catholic Church in the early 1950s when it once was a great, universal Church when even Hollywood respected the Church. I was trained in the EF. My parish was in the vanguard of the Liturgical Movement. I could chant by heart, 5 Latin Ordinaries by the time I was 10. The Missa Cantata was the norm. My parents, who were not raised that way in the 1930s and 1940s but by the time I came along, even they began to recite the Latin prayers and chant the responses. We were shocked by the liturgical iconoclastic destruction of our Mass and sanctuaries in the 1960s. No one cared about our sensibilities.
The EF has a transcendent and ethereal quality that unfortunately, the OF, as commonly celebrated, does not have. I have a confession to make. THe one change that I approved of was the removal of the Last Gospel which seemed anti-clamactic and out of place. I love that Gospel but I am sure hardened traditionalists will attack me for this admission. But the collapsing of the Kyrie from 9 to 6, was absolutely silly and harmed the structural integrity of the marvelous Gregorian Chants we had sung for hundreds of years.
I believe the proof is in the pudding. And the Novus Ordo has simply not attracted the Faithful, it might be fairly asserted that it has chased them away. I avoid it whenever possible.
I believe the proof is in the pudding. And the Novus Ordo has simply not attracted the Faithful, it might be fairly asserted that it has chased them away.
Anything can be "asserted," but I doubt that it can be shown to be true.
Anonymous Kavanaugh,
Something like 80% of American Catholics attended Sunday Mass prior to the Council. With the "new and improved" Mass, it's around 20% and dropping. Such a Springtime
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