It looks as if the front of the altar and ambo are covered in silver, which is appropriate for Argentina indeed. I noticed an episcopal "flabellum" in the vidoe, although it was the useful, electrified version...
The Latin for silver is "argentum," hence the name Argentina. The chemical symbol for silver is "Ar."
Alas, the Spanish thought there were "silver mountains" in this territory, but no such mountains were found.
I was unaware of Argentina's connection to silver. I can now recall seeing where silver played a significant role in many things related to Argentina. I might just point out, however, and I do not mean this is any snarky way, I believe the chemical symbol for silver is Ag, not Ar. Still, your point as to Argentina-silver hook is interesting.
I want to be happy and not sad and, hopefully, future events with this Pope will be heartening. As I've said before I can already see a lot of good things to be happy about, mainly on a substantive doctrinal and church governance level.
Still, if it is to be believed, a recent BBC story might explain the glum look of Msgr. Guido Marini's face as Pope Francis made his first appearance on the balcony. According to that story, when Pope Francis had changed into his white cassock, the papal MC Msgr. Marini offered him the ermine-trimmed red mozetta to put on over the cassock (which would be the winter version of a customary papal equivalent of the red cardinal's mozetta he had worn in the Conclave and had just taken off). Pope Francis is reported to have said, "No thank you Monsignore, you put it on instead. Carnival time is over."
I truly hope this is later proven to be an apocryphal (false) story. If it is true, I certainly would be very disturbed by the sarcasm and lack of respect for the past and tradition (the implication that it is now ridiculous and carnival costume like to wear traditional articles of clothing which are associated with institutions such as the papacy). The world would be a much more bland and boring place without historic traditional clothing associated with certain institutions (no more English judges in robes and powdered wigs, no more red-coated grenadier guards, no more presidents being inaugurated in cutaways and top hats or Knights of Columbus with swords, capes and naval chapeaux). I'm sorry, these are some of the things I'd rather keep in this life.
Joe, I would be highly suspect of that, was a source attributed to it? If true, though, I would hope that the Holy Father isn't stepping on too many toes of those who appreciate Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and would see some of what he is doing as a repudiation of the previous pope still living. That could lead to a kind of schism in the church, especially with a living former pope.
At times, one wishes, if only briefly, one were an Eastern Catholic, simply so that one's traditional rites would largely be regarded as sacrosanct by the bishop of Rome, "sacrosanct" being an especially accurate term in this case.
If such a report is true ,and it does sound a bit farfetched, perhaps it was less of a swipe at his predecessor, whom he has praised considerably, and more of a note that the season of carnival (they have a big one in Buenos Aires) is over and it's Lent now, so perhaps a stripped down ensemble is more Lenten? Just a thought.
Lydia, that is a clever way to think about it and I hope you are right, but I am getting a sense of dread about some of this. As someone has said of the Easter Rite or Orthodox, they keep certain things in place no matter who is wearing them. One would hope also for the papacy. Pope Benedict was so careful not to repudiate anything of Pope John Paul II and moved only very slowly in revising some aspects of the liturgy and expanding John Paul II's allowance of the EF Mass.
I do fear a real schism is what is being reported is true.
Yes, the symbol for silver is 'Ag'. Good think PF' (Pope Franics prime) the chemist did not notice your mistake. Interestingly a common drink in Argentina is mate' that is traditionally drunk through a silver straw. I have heard that that the indigenous people would greet foreigners with a gourd of mate and drink through a silver straw. Pirates would often steal the straws when heads were turned, so the locals took to leaving out one extra gourd filled with a bitter elixir. If the pirate would attempt to 'sip and run' they would hear him let out a little sputter in disgust and catch him in the act. This was so successful pirates took to calling the place 'Argh in tina'.
Papal regalia and sundry trappings of this office signify the majesty and glory of God and the Holiness of the Church. They should not be interpreted as personal statements of a particular Pope or polity. If the Pope, or anyone else, sees them as such, he is mistaken. Christ's humility and self-denial mean nothing without God's majesty and sovereignty. It is this "kenosis," the Mystery of the self humbling of the sovereign God to become man, that is the entire drama of our salvation. If one understands Catholic theology, indeed, Christian theology, then one understands that this majesty represented by the Papal regalia is ultimately pointing to the crucified Christ. Doctrine of God comes first in theology...the majesty and sovereignty of the Trinitarian Godhead comes before the Incarnation. Anything else is adoptioinist Christology...which is to say, no Christology at all.
Sadly if true this Pope will cause divisions that have already been healing over the last 8 years. At a minimum, if confirmed these remarks would be cruel and insensitive to Marini and to all those who trusted in the wisdom behind the words and actions of Benedict XVI. Pope Francis is already pitting himself against the former Pope with such words, behaviors, and gestures. As someone quite familiar with Latino culture, "Carnival" is used quite often in everyday speech as an adjective to describe all sorts of silly behavior and if used in this instance would be an intended insult. Carnival is indeed a term that many would use to describe the Masses he presided over in B.A. Slighting one group in the Church for another instead of looking over and guiding the whole is reminiscent of an earlier attempt to draw in new converts from other Faiths with the introduction of the NO Missal, "stripped of its' Catholicity", written by none other than the man who composed the New Mass, and offending and tossing aside of Faithful, loyal conservatives and traditionalists of that era. None of this befits the term humble. There is cause for great concern here.
I hope he does wear choir dress in the future, it's extremely odd that he didn't for his Urbi et Orbi, a situation that one simply wears choir dress for, since it's a choir occasion or para-liturgical event.
Also, he told the cardinals to wear their house cassocks! underneath their albs. How odd! The house cassock is NEVER worn underneath vestments! That is the whole point of choir cassock.
What next, don't wear chasubles for Mass?
This is as weird as wearing a hoodie to a wedding or a tuxedo to go to McDonald's.
I agree with Father McDonald that, if the ermine sarcasm episode is true (which I hope it's not), then this could a about the repudiation of the immediately previous papacy which is a potentially very serious problem.
Now Hans Kung is reported to have said that he is "completely satisfied" with the election of Pope Francis and Cardinal Mahoney is beside himself rejoicing via tweets which can be read on the Rorate Caeli blog. But yet Fr. Gruner of the Fatima Apostolate is also convinced that this is the pope who will finally properly consecrate Russia (you can watch him on Youtube being interviewed and talking about this). It's hard to know what to think! "Good grief" is right!
Why does anyone even mention Kung's name? He is a third rate theologian, a modernist theology hack, and Catholic in name only. Just let him fade into a richly deserved oblivion...
Mark this comment for future reference--I was just back to the seminary when John Paul I was elected and have eerily the same feelings about Frances as I did Of JPI, and ever sense his appearance at the balcony and his near fall meeting with the cardinals I have a feeling of unease!
I agree with your assessment of Kung. I only mentioned him, along with Card. Mahoney because they are both well-known "progressives" (liberals or modernists in my nomenclature). I don't see their being pleased with the new pope as a favorable indicator.
Juxtaposed with their rejoicing is the enthusiasm of the ultra-traditionalist Fatimist priest, Fr. Gruner who appears to believe pretty strongly that this is the pope who will finally properly consecrate Russia as his movement advocates. If such an ultra-traditionalist is happy with Pope Francis then I see this as a favorable indicator (along with the new pope's visit to the tomb of St. Pius V and his reference to the devil in his condemnation of gay marriage). As I've said, I'm still trying to figure this one out.
21 comments:
It looks as if the front of the altar and ambo are covered in silver, which is appropriate for Argentina indeed. I noticed an episcopal "flabellum" in the vidoe, although it was the useful, electrified version...
The Latin for silver is "argentum," hence the name Argentina. The chemical symbol for silver is "Ar."
Alas, the Spanish thought there were "silver mountains" in this territory, but no such mountains were found.
I was unaware of Argentina's connection to silver. I can now recall seeing where silver played a significant role in many things related to Argentina. I might just point out, however, and I do not mean this is any snarky way, I believe the chemical symbol for silver is Ag, not Ar. Still, your point as to Argentina-silver hook is interesting.
Ag, of course!
I want to be happy and not sad and, hopefully, future events with this Pope will be heartening. As I've said before I can already see a lot of good things to be happy about, mainly on a substantive doctrinal and church governance level.
Still, if it is to be believed, a recent BBC story might explain the glum look of Msgr. Guido Marini's face as Pope Francis made his first appearance on the balcony.
According to that story, when Pope Francis had changed into his white cassock, the papal MC Msgr. Marini offered him the ermine-trimmed red mozetta to put on over the cassock (which would be the winter version of a customary papal equivalent of the red cardinal's mozetta he had worn in the Conclave and had just taken off). Pope Francis is reported to have said, "No thank you Monsignore, you put it on instead. Carnival time is over."
I truly hope this is later proven to be an apocryphal (false) story. If it is true, I certainly would be very disturbed by the sarcasm and lack of respect for the past and tradition (the implication that it is now ridiculous and carnival costume like to wear traditional articles of clothing which are associated with institutions such as the papacy). The world would be a much more bland and boring place without historic traditional clothing associated with certain institutions (no more English judges in robes and powdered wigs, no more red-coated grenadier guards, no more presidents being inaugurated in cutaways and top hats or Knights of Columbus with swords, capes and naval chapeaux). I'm sorry, these are some of the things I'd rather keep in this life.
Joe, I would be highly suspect of that, was a source attributed to it? If true, though, I would hope that the Holy Father isn't stepping on too many toes of those who appreciate Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and would see some of what he is doing as a repudiation of the previous pope still living. That could lead to a kind of schism in the church, especially with a living former pope.
At times, one wishes, if only briefly, one were an Eastern Catholic, simply so that one's traditional rites would largely be regarded as sacrosanct by the bishop of Rome, "sacrosanct" being an especially accurate term in this case.
If such a report is true ,and it does sound a bit farfetched, perhaps it was less of a swipe at his predecessor, whom he has praised considerably, and more of a note that the season of carnival (they have a big one in Buenos Aires) is over and it's Lent now, so perhaps a stripped down ensemble is more Lenten? Just a thought.
Lydia, that is a clever way to think about it and I hope you are right, but I am getting a sense of dread about some of this. As someone has said of the Easter Rite or Orthodox, they keep certain things in place no matter who is wearing them. One would hope also for the papacy. Pope Benedict was so careful not to repudiate anything of Pope John Paul II and moved only very slowly in revising some aspects of the liturgy and expanding John Paul II's allowance of the EF Mass.
I do fear a real schism is what is being reported is true.
Yes, the symbol for silver is 'Ag'. Good think PF' (Pope Franics prime) the chemist did not notice your mistake. Interestingly a common drink in Argentina is mate' that is traditionally drunk through a silver straw. I have heard that that the indigenous people would greet foreigners with a gourd of mate and drink through a silver straw. Pirates would often steal the straws when heads were turned, so the locals took to leaving out one extra gourd filled with a bitter elixir. If the pirate would attempt to 'sip and run' they would hear him let out a little sputter in disgust and catch him in the act. This was so successful pirates took to calling the place 'Argh in tina'.
And the name stuck.
A schism over ermine? Puh-leeze.
Papal regalia and sundry trappings of this office signify the majesty and glory of God and the Holiness of the Church. They should not be interpreted as personal statements of a particular Pope or polity. If the Pope, or anyone else, sees them as such, he is mistaken. Christ's humility and self-denial mean nothing without God's majesty and sovereignty. It is this "kenosis," the Mystery of the self humbling of the sovereign God to become man, that is the entire drama of our salvation. If one understands Catholic theology, indeed, Christian theology, then one understands that this majesty represented by the Papal regalia is ultimately pointing to the crucified Christ. Doctrine of God comes first in theology...the majesty and sovereignty of the Trinitarian Godhead comes before the Incarnation. Anything else is adoptioinist Christology...which is to say, no Christology at all.
Sadly if true this Pope will cause divisions that have already been healing over the last 8 years. At a minimum, if confirmed these remarks would be cruel and insensitive to Marini and to all those who trusted in the wisdom behind the words and actions of Benedict XVI. Pope Francis is already pitting himself against the former Pope with such words, behaviors, and gestures. As someone quite familiar with Latino culture, "Carnival" is used quite often in everyday speech as an adjective to describe all sorts of silly behavior and if used in this instance would be an intended insult. Carnival is indeed a term that many would use to describe the Masses he presided over in B.A. Slighting one group in the Church for another instead of looking over and guiding the whole is reminiscent of an earlier attempt to draw in new converts from other Faiths with the introduction of the NO Missal, "stripped of its' Catholicity", written by none other than the man who composed the New Mass, and offending and tossing aside of Faithful, loyal conservatives and traditionalists of that era. None of this befits the term humble. There is cause for great concern here.
It is not about ermine, but about the repudiation of a pope's papacy and who happens to still be living. This is dangerous territory.
I take personal offense to this Pope's rejecting any ermine...
I hope he does wear choir dress in the future, it's extremely odd that he didn't for his Urbi et Orbi, a situation that one simply wears choir dress for, since it's a choir occasion or para-liturgical event.
Also, he told the cardinals to wear their house cassocks! underneath their albs. How odd! The house cassock is NEVER worn underneath vestments! That is the whole point of choir cassock.
What next, don't wear chasubles for Mass?
This is as weird as wearing a hoodie to a wedding or a tuxedo to go to McDonald's.
I agree with Father McDonald that, if the ermine sarcasm episode is true (which I hope it's not), then this could a about the repudiation of the immediately previous papacy which is a potentially very serious problem.
Now Hans Kung is reported to have said that he is "completely satisfied" with the election of Pope Francis and Cardinal Mahoney is beside himself rejoicing via tweets which can be read on the Rorate Caeli blog. But yet Fr. Gruner of the Fatima Apostolate is also convinced that this is the pope who will finally properly consecrate Russia (you can watch him on Youtube being interviewed and talking about this). It's hard to know what to think! "Good grief" is right!
Ha Ha Hee Hee Hee! Thank you, Marc; I needed a good laugh!
Why does anyone even mention Kung's name? He is a third rate theologian, a modernist theology hack, and Catholic in name only. Just let him fade into a richly deserved oblivion...
Father, you want some clarvoyance that may or may not be, check this out:
http://popes-and-papacy.com/wordpress/francis-267-vis-a-vis-john-paul-i-264-piling-up-fast-just-a-coincidence-i-dont-like-it/
Mark this comment for future reference--I was just back to the seminary when John Paul I was elected and have eerily the same feelings about Frances as I did Of JPI, and ever sense his appearance at the balcony and his near fall meeting with the cardinals I have a feeling of unease!
Gene,
I agree with your assessment of Kung. I only mentioned him, along with Card. Mahoney because they are both well-known "progressives" (liberals or modernists in my nomenclature). I don't see their being pleased with the new pope as a favorable indicator.
Juxtaposed with their rejoicing is the enthusiasm of the ultra-traditionalist Fatimist priest, Fr. Gruner who appears to believe pretty strongly that this is the pope who will finally properly consecrate Russia as his movement advocates. If such an ultra-traditionalist is happy with Pope Francis then I see this as a favorable indicator (along with the new pope's visit to the tomb of St. Pius V and his reference to the devil in his condemnation of gay marriage). As I've said, I'm still trying to figure this one out.
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