Tuesday, February 21, 2012


I copy this from Fr. Z's blog as it is very telling:

In 2010, Cardinal Francis George of Chicago outlined the degree to which he believed religious freedoms (in the United States and other Western societies) were endangered. After the passage of legislation that enabled Civil Unions in Illinois, his eminence stated:

I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square.

In February of 2012, Cardinal George reflected on the seriousness of the Obama administration’s health-care mandate:

At the present moment, Catholics in this country are facing challenges to our institutional existence and our mission that we thought would never arise here. … The laws that used to protect us are now being used to weaken and destroy us, and this quite deliberately.

Shortly, thereafter, when the Obama administration and the media touted the fact that the Catholic Bishops are alone on the contraception issue and that most Catholics aren’t supporting them in this battle, Cardinal George wrote:

This is the first time in the history of the United States that a presidential administration has purposely tried to interfere in the internal working of the Catholic Church, playing one group off against another for political gain. What isn’t always understood is that the Bishops of the Church make no attempt to speak for all Catholics; they never have. The Bishops speak for the Catholic and apostolic faith, and those who hold that faith gather around them. Others disperse.

A few days later on at a press conference held at Loyola University on February 18th, he told the Chicago Tribune about the devastating effects of the HHS mandate for Catholic institutions:

The long-term effect is that the Catholic Church will be stripped of the institutions that are her instruments for public service. We will lose hospitals, we will lose universities. That’s not the country I was born in. … Something monumental is happening here.

MY COMMENTS: In the seminary of the late 1970's, I was taught the theology of "the loyal opposition" in matters of morality and doctrine. Theologians were more and more seeing themselves as a parallel magisterium to help guide the bishops in their exercise of their teaching authority. The theologians would put forward ideas that would challenge the status quo of official Church teachings, especially those in the area of sexuality and natural law and in direct opposition to Humanae Vitae in 1968.

The fruit of this experimentation with being a part of the "loyal opposition" to the bishops and their role of teaching and handing on the faith in the fashion that Cardinal George points out: "The Bishops of the Church make no attempt to speak for all Catholics; they never have. The Bishops speak for the Catholic and apostolic faith, and those who hold that faith gather around them. Others disperse."

Whether you are on the right or the left of "loyal opposition" to the Church's Magisterium and the manner in which you pick and choose Catholic moral and doctrinal teachings as well as her canon law, you can see how dissent when legitimized undercuts the role of the Church in the world and the proclamation of the Gospel and living of the Gospel in an institutional way.

The Church is entering or has already entered the Babylonian Exile of her existence on earth. A remnant will remain faithful and persecuted for being faithful to the traditional faith and morals of the Church in union with the pope and the bishops in union with him. Many Catholics, though, will become or have become willing victims of "syncretism" mixing aspects of Catholicism with the religion of godless secularism and its outright denial of natural law and the traditional moral teachings of the Church. Other Catholics will become collaborators with the religion of godless secularism and will glory in the embrace of it as the logical fruit of their vision of the "spirit of Vatican II."

In other words there will be Catholics claiming to remain Catholic who will applaud what Cardinal George sees as evil. These Catholics will call evil, good and good evil--a insidious form of blaspheming the Holy Spirit!

There are some Catholics who actually think disobedience to the Catholic and Apostolic faith is a good thing!


William Meyer said...

I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square.

This quote, attributed to Card. George, and claimed to be from 2010, has proved difficult to source. If anyone can locate the original document in which this can be found, I would like to read it in full context.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

William, if you press Fr. Z's blog on my post it will bring you to his post and it has footnotes for this particular quote. I hope that helps.

William Meyer said...

Father, I looked at his post, looked at the linked articles, and then googled a fair bit. The citation is in his Wikipedia page, and there is attributed to a gay blog (Rainbow Sash Movement), which attributes it to the Chicago Archdiocesan newspaper. Given the date cited in Wikipedia (2010) and the date from the blog (Jan 15), I searched the archives of the paper, without success. I tried the first 4 issues of 2010, and both issues form 2012.

I do not doubt that Card. George may have expressed the thought, but I find it odd that we can only see places where it is quoted. And as I said, I'd like to read the entire article, interview, or whatever was the original context.

qwikness said...

That second image looks ominously like that of Freemasonry. Do you think the secularization of society is a direct result of the syncretic religion that is Freemasonry?

Anonymous said...

Whatever the veracity of the quote, the prediction is not too far off. The USA does not have the spirit (yet) to persecute in the dramatic manner of the quote, but if legal restraints to the practice of our Faith are prison, and proscription from proclaiming the Truth is Death, then it is nearly here.

When I worked in some middle eastern countries we were not allowed to bring any non-Islamic religious items with us. I'm not sure how it was discovered that I was Catholic, but a guy I didn't know contacted me and told me some Catholics were meeting in a room in our compound. Intrigued, I showed up and a small group of about five or six people had a short prayer and adoration of the Blessed Host. I don't know where the guys got it, but it was in one of those tiny tins just the size of a short stack of hosts. We took Communion. This could have been one of those EMHC we flame on around here. But in this particular case I was very happy to see it, and energised to have experienced this. I could be wrong, but that seems like one of the correct uses for that 'ministry'.

Strip everything down to the basics, add in the real danger that you might lose life, liberty, or happiness, and you'll know right away if you really love God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


William Meyer said...

I am not questioning the veracity of the quote, however, such information as I have found places it in early 2010, and I would love to know whether Card. George truly said that two full years ago.

Anonymous said...

The Church has been opennly persecuted (clergy and religious and lay people shot or thrown in prison, put under house arrest, denied equal rights...) in virtually every country on earth except the English speaking colonies (Australia, New Zealand, US, Canada) since the 1800s.

In every case the government uses force, purges their own ranks via symbolic gestures (political correctness), begins a secret police reign of terror, uses traitors, spies, and informants.... to reduce all above ground, visible, public signs of faith to a minimum...

Most people go underground or deny their faith at least tactically. Very few stand up as witnesses (martyrs). But it seems as though when this happens there's a price tag for the persecution to cease - a price to be paid by martyrs and the holiness of the hidden, underground church. The fewer the martyrs, the longer the persecution lasts. It's the paradox of the Cross. If we would live, we must be willing to lay down our lives.

Vox Cantoris said...

The Masonic picture reminded me of "The Golden Rule" from the Scarboro Foreign Mission, a Society of Apostolic Life here in Toronto. Once known as the China Mission, it is a dying Congregation with no vocations.


Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I was asked earlier about freemasonry and its influence in the current drive of the Obama administration to control and identity and mission of the Catholic Church, I have no idea.

Anonymous said...

Freemasonry? This administration is imitating China, and little else.


Catholic Mission said...

Tuesday, February 21, 2012

The International Theological Commission of the Vatican in two of its position papers has referred to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 of Pope Pius XII. The Letter mentions, the dogma and says it is infallible. Here is the text of the dogma.(1)

In this text of the dogma the Vatican is affirming the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This was the literal interpretation of the popes, the Church Councils, Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14), Dominus Iesus 20, the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845, 846 etc. Pope Pius XII referred to the dogma as an infallible teaching.

However the ITC (2) assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit and known to us and so they believe it contradicts the thrice defined dogma.

As mentioned in an earlier post on this blog invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to the dogma.

There can be no explicit, defacto, known cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. So it is not an issue with respect to the dogma, unless, it is made an issue and made to appear as explicit and known.

Here are the popes affirming the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

POPE PIUS IX (Allocution December 9th, 1854)

Pope Pius IX held the rigorist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also affirmed the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance, cases of which are unknown to us and so are not explicit exceptions to the dogma.

Pope Pius IX was saying: (Defacto):'We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge…’ and (Dejure): ‘we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord...'

Defacto (explicitly) everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation (to avoid Hell) and de jure (in principle) and known only to God, there could be non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance etc, ‘in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).


(Defacto) 8. ‘… no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church – Quanto Conficamur, Pope Pius IX 1863

(Dejure) 7. ‘… those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments...-Quanto Conficamur


Anonymous said...

Free Masonry preaches the universal brotherhood of man - with the aim of self-divinization ala the tower of babel project.

Communism, international socialism too holds out this hope for universal brotherhood, global harmony, peace, everyone enjoying a 'rational' existence.

Both are anti-revealed religion, both see the Church as merely human, and a competing institution to be subverted, infiltrated, and persecuted so as to remove it from the field of power over men.

So an anti-Gospel, an anti-Church, preaching the "kindgom come" of a terrestrial paradise at least for the elites.

The paradox of it is that while they insist there's nothing special or supernatural about the Church....they advance the notion that there IS some sort of mystical "specialness" for the "state" or the Lodge that can somehow both justify the actions of 'loyal members' and give their individuality a type of immortality.

Templar said...

Catholic Mission: Will you be completing your post on EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS?

I can not help but be pleased to see the ITC commenting on this. It has always been one of the major stumbling blocks between the SSPX and the Vatican post V2, and the timing is curious to say the least. Fruit perhaps of the Vatican-SSPX Theological meetings that took place over the past 2+ years.

pinanv525 said...

There seems to be some inconsistency here, however, because the Catholic Church recognizes most mainline protestant Baptisms. This means that, given the Catholic theology of Baptism, the necessary condition for salvation has been accomplished, assuming right and sincere belief on the part of the protestant.
Also, are we to understand that the Church views some Buddhist or pantheist who has lived a "good life" as a more viable candidate for salvation than, say, John Calvin or any believing, confessing protestant who has kept their life free from known sin?
I recognize that there are different interpretations of extra ecclesium nulla salus, however I believe it remains a theological problem.
All this being said, I do like the Church's strong stance regarding salvation and, given protestantism's steady drift toward secularism and unbelief, the strictest interpretation may, after all, be correct...

Catholic Mission said...

Friday, February 24, 2012
News444 Top world news : EWTN position paper at odds with authentic Catholic teaching
Lionel Andrades: EWTN position paper at odds with authentic Catholic teaching.

News 20/02/2012 00:41 douglawrence.wordpress.com Friday, February 17, 2012


EWTN has placed a report on the internet titled Outside the Church No Salvation which criticizes ‘ the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved)’ and claims it has ‘been condemned by the Magisterium.’

In other words EWTN says every one does not have to convert into the Church for salvation (Pope Pius IX, Allocution), the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are defacto, explicitly known cases which contradict ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).Also EWTN suggests that there are is a Magiseterial document which says specifically that Fr.Leonard Feeney was condemned for heresy and which EWTN has not specified.

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation

The doctrine that “Outside the Church there is no salvation”; is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won’t submit to the Magisterium of the Church.

Lionel: The Magisterium of the Church says all need to enter the Church for salvation. (Dominus Iesus 20, Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14, Catechism of the Catholic Church 845,845, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 etc).

Lumen Gentium 16 and LG 8 are not exceptions to the dogma since we do not know any explicit case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance, good conscience or with ‘elements of sanctification’.

Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition – including “outside the Church no salvation.”



Catholic Mission said...

pinanv525 said...
There seems to be some inconsistency here, however, because the Catholic Church recognizes most mainline protestant Baptisms.

The baptism is recognized as valid. However adult Protestants need Catholic Faith, they need to interpret the Gospel according to the Catholic Church. This means they need to avoid mortal sins like divorce,abortion etc.

Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II says Catholic faith and the baptism of water are needed for salvation. Protestants do not have Catholic Faith.

Dominus Iesus 20 says Jesus died for all, and all people, to recieve salvation, need to enter th Catholic Church.

The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence specifically says that Protestants need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell.

Catholic Mission said...



The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 issued during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII mentions ‘the dogma', the 'infallible statement'.

Here is the ‘dogma’:

(Defacto) '... it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

‘… none of those existing outside the Catholic Church... can have a share in life eternal... unless before death they are joined with Her... No one... can be saved, unless he (Defacto) remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

(Dejure) ‘… when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire…’

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members,(Defacto) and those who are united to the Church only by desire (Dejure).- Letter of the Holy Office 1949 (Emphasis added).


(Defacto) ‘The Church…is necessary for salvation… faith and baptism…for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.’- Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II.

(Dejure) ‘…those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God…’ -Lumen Gentium 16

‘Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church…’- Lumen Gentium 16

If one uses the irrational defacto-defacto analysis of the above magisterial texts instead of the traditional dejure-defacto interpretation it would mean the popes contradicted themselves and that Vatican Council II contradicted an ex cathedra dogma. It would be a criticism of the infallibility of the popes ex cathedra. It would also be contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction. It is heresy to claim that there are defacto exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

With the defacto-dejure analysis we see that the Magisterial texts affirm the centuries-old interpretation of the Church Fathers, the saints, the popes and Councils, including Vatican Council II. This was the traditional interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston. This is the teaching of Pope John Paul II's Dominus Iesus (20) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845,846 and also during the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI in Responses to Some questions regarding certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church (2007).

With invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire ‘out of the way’ we can realize that the Catholic Church has not retracted the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

It is “practically” impossible to know any case saved with the baptism of desire or in ivincible ignorance said a priest of the religious community in Rome, Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate.

Last week two Dominican priests at the Basilica Santa Maria Sopra Minevra, Rome said that these extra ordinary cases are known only to God.


Catholic Mission said...


So if it means if I meet a non Catholic on the street I know that he is oriented to Hell unless he converts into the Catholic Church before death. This is the official teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II.

It means all non Catholics on earth need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation and it is only God who can judge who is in invincible ignorance and who knew about Jesus and the Church but refused to enter.

It also means that we cannot say ‘only those who know and do not enter are oriented to Hell’ and then assume that most non Catholics 'do not know’.The dogma and other magisterial texts mention no defacto exceptions.

If the exceptions were known on earth then we could say ‘only those who know’. The Rome Vicariate on its website says only those who ‘know’ need to enter the Church to avoid Hell. Since, the Vicariate wrongly assumes that cases of invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are known to us on earth.So these 'known' people do not have to enter the Church according to them.

Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct in saying that the baptism of desire is not an exception to the dogma outside the church no salvation.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 (The Necessity of Baptism), Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger expected us to use the defacto-dejure analysis to avoid clashing with the Principle of Non Contradiction.Liberals wrongly use the defacto-defacto interpretation.

In Responses to Some questions regarding certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church (2007) Pope Benedict XVI was saying that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church (subsistist it). Subsistist it is ‘indirectly related’ to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says a Jesuit priest, on his website.
Lionel Andrades



Catholic Mission said...

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) from Catholicism.org


Rev. Luis F. Ladaria, S.J. (president);

A. "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"

66. ...the letter of the Holy Office, dated 8 August ,1949, to the archbishop of Boston, which rejected Feeney s interpretation and clarified the teaching of Pius XII...


2.3. The Need for the Church

59. The Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston (1949) offers further specifications...


pinanv525 said...

There is also the question of Pope Benedict referring to protestant churches as "ecclesial communities." This needs exegesis. Ecclesial means "of the Church," so we need to understand what "Church" and "community" mean in this context. So, protestants are a community of the Church, baptized in the name of the Trinity, and sharing the common Creeds of the Church.
In addition, the Church is making it easy for Anglicans (one of the least worthy prot churches...it was founded on adultery)to enter the Church and is even allowing their Priests an easy road to ordination as Catholic. The implications are, at least, that perhaps "preaching" and practice are a bit inconsistent within the Church.