As far as I can tell, Pope Francis has never met with any groups of Catholics who prefer the ancient Lex Orandi of the Church, meaning the pre-Vatican II liturgical books. He has met with the head of the semi-schismatic FSXXP, but never with groups of Catholics in full communion with their Latin Rite bishops who have gathered in Rome for various “conventions” and even Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the Altar of the Chair of St. Peter’s.
There seems to be a parallel here with Cardinal Bergoglio and the Charismatic Movement in Argentina. He described them in negative psychological terms and had quite an antipathy for them until he got to know many of them in a personal way which changed his attitude completely. It is important to note when large “conventions” of charismatics have met in Rome, the pope has gone to see them and knelt before their leaders for them to pray over him.
No such gestures, yet, for Ancient lex orandi Catholics. His attitude is one of psychological misunderstanding and the suspicions about him by traditionalists which His Holiness himself has created. The closest thing was the pope’s meeting with two relatively young priests from the FSSP and the incredible gesture towards them and other institutes founded to preserver the ancient lex orandi of the Church.
This act of flexibility and generosity by the pope seems to have been “off-the-cuff” and immediate with an actual decree written by the Holy Father with His Holiness’ name affixed to it, not some lower level prelate saying the pope had seen and approved it like the contrived dubia of Archbishop Roche.
I wonder, too, if Archbishop Roche feels as tough he has been hung out to dry by the pope who seems a bit more flexible towards Traditionalists. This is especially true in his letter to bishops with accompanied the decree, which itself is more generous than Archbishop Roche’s dubia which is snarky, mean and clearly not pastoral in any way.
At any rate, Traditionalists, the way to win this pope over is with sugar not vinegar. Remember that! Bee nice! This may well win the Holy Father over and we might see His Holiness, one day, attending an EF Mass to see why so many young laity and clergy are attracted to it and it isn’t just about rigidity and sexual perversion.
15 comments:
Father, I would beg to differ.Recently the SSPX ,with whom I have no affiliation, visited Pope Francis.I have no doubt that during the audience the SSPX told the Pipe to leave well enough alone, or they would out him and his minions for their misrule.In addition,I am quite sure other recent phone calls to the Vatican, if not directly to His Holiness,have left the authorities in no doubt at all to the threat of potential charges of heterodoxy etc.
You cannot be semi-schismatic - it's either in or out. In the 19th century the 'Old Catholics' signalled their schism by removing the Pope from the Canon of the Mass. For good measure they also excised the 'Roman' martyrs.
The SSPX is not schismatic. Nor is the NCR, although it is a poisonous rag which promotes heresy.
I was actually involved with Charismatics for many years some time ago in another place. Most of them were good people, but, except for a few priests and laity, too many were not grounded in solid Church teaching and embraced just about anything that made sense to them, "in the spirit"--a phrase that makes me groan to this day. I reached a point where I couldn't take it any more and I've never gone back.
As regards the FSSP decree, it cannot be found yet on any official Vatican website--rather suspicious. Further, the language is VERY open-ended and ambiguous--lest we forget how "successful" the ambiguous language of various Vatican II documents have been. Wait! They HAVE been successful--as weapons against Tradition!
Ultimately, I don't trust what the media is reporting and even if every word of the statement is what he really said, I don't trust the pope. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
Remember: It isn't Ignatius, it's Juan Peron that has formed THIS Jesuit.
Father McDonald,
Over at The New Liturgical Movement there is an excellent article on the 60th Anniversary of Veterum Sapientia, containing all sorts of "inconvenient facts" for liturgical "progressives" and their ilk in the upper reaches of the Church today:
https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2022/02/the-60th-anniversary-of-veterum.html
Hint: St. John XXIII is not on their side
As usual, Father K is wrong. The highest gas prices were during the Obama years. When you’re a leftist you NEVER accept blame for leftist policies which affect the working poor the hardest. Just like the leftists can’t accept that under President Trump Blacks and Hispanics enjoyed their lowest unemployment rates ever and Trump’s policies created over 500,000 manufacturing jobs that Obama said were never coming back. Of course leftists call abortion “healthcare.”
This slow motion train to rebuild the Soviet Union began under the Obama/Biden administration with their impotence when Putin invaded Crimia. That was the beginning of a potential World War III in Europe that is about to unfold in a bloody war which will cause immense suffering for the Ukrainian people and those who will be next, like Poland.
Ex CIA director and Democrat pundit called out Obama on this yesterday on CNN of all places and by association Biden and what he is doing now or not doing.
Huh? Not that I entirely disagree, but how did we jump from the pope's latest psi-op to gas prices and the Ukrainian war? Did I miss something?
TJM:
It's not that I don't empathize with your frustration, but you're letting Father Kavanaugh "live rent free in your head". It would be nice to see you post about something other than him.
TG, it's called what posters do to my posts, they change the subject! Happens everywhere.
Thomas Garrett,
I posted my comment in the long thread. Father K is always the first to politicize a thread. I guess it’s a compensatory device for voting for the party of intrinsic evil.
The claim that I am the first to "politicize" a thread is not true.
When Fr. ALLAN McDonald posted "MY PAGEVIEWS SO FAR FOR FEBRUARY (HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??????)" the first post from ByzRus was a plea for prayers for Ukraine.
The second post was from rcg: "It is a scary time in The Ukraine."
The third post was from TJM who said, "If President Trump was still in office, the Ukraine would be safe."
Now, who is it that jumps in to politicize posts?
TJM
When you talk about gas prices I assume you are referring to the retail price of gasoline (petrol) and not the wholesale cost of natural gas which Russia exports to Western Europe via a pipeline.
Father K scores a first at the From Readers in Ukraine thread:
"As for gas prices, the higgest in the last 20 ywars were in July 2008 during the Bush administration."
Of course, Father K was wrong, again. That happened during the Obama years. Father K is very Mark Thomasesque, starts something then runs away from the topic when shown to be wrong.
Yes, John Nolan, you are correct, I was referring to the retail price of gasoline in the US.
If anyone is actually interested in getting back on topic...
I found this fantastic quote from Archbishop Gullickson, a retired American Vatican diplomat:
“I have always underestimated the visceral hatred of the last elements standing of a generation older than mine, which since the 1950's at least have mindlessly pushed forward the 'Star Trek' agenda of venturing where no man has gone before.
"Condemnations of ‘rigidity’ are no more than a smokescreen to cover an old vendetta, rooted as much in a petty modernist agenda as in hatred of all things starched and trimmed with lace. Desperately holding to the Novus Ordo and the delusion that it might represent a way forward, must be in its death throws.
"With confidence we will hold for tradition and the hope that true religion will stand forth upon the rubble of the edifice of the last 60 years marred as it is by violence and dissimulation.”
Jerome Merwick,
A powerful statement which should receive extensive media attention, but it won’t, unfortunately. Yes, in spite of collapsing Mass attendance they keep beating that old OF tambourine. The new springtime is just around the corner!
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