On my High Blood Pressure” post on eulogies at Requiems, this was a comment I received:
Anonymous said...Anon 5:24 - You have a point, indeed. The presumption of many traditionalists is that people today are desirous of the "Pray, Pay, Obey" model of the "Good" Old Days of the Church. There may be a very small segment of the population that feels this way, but most are not inclined to be so.
The majority know that the Church belongs to all who are baptized, not just to the few who are ordained. That majority won't be told what to do and when to do it. Pastors who work in this outdated model will find that their flocks will, rightly, leave for places where their dignity will be respected.
Let’s talk about the laity’s rights. Are they above canon and liturgical law? Is this ideology, quite prevalent in the heterodox of the Church, that the majority of the laity and clergy, who once were laity, chosen from among them, “won’t be told what to do and when to do it” something we should take seriously?
What is implied here is that the laity have a right to plan their liturgical celebrations and the way in which they will be “Church” regardless of the Faith, Morals, and Canon Law of the Church. They will no longer pray, pay and obey. Really? They will no longer pray????? They will no longer give sacrificially of the time, talent and treasure????? They will no longer be obedient to God and Holy Mother Church????? REALLY?????
Are we even speaking about Christianity here??????
But let’s talk about giving the people what they want. Would the person posting the comment above be all in favor of a pastor making sure that a family desiring the EF Requiem for their deceased loved one be given that option? And not doing so, would this person posting this comment then say, “Pastors who work in this outdated model will find that their flocks will, rightly, leave for places where their dignity will be respected” as though they are consumers of religion rather than adherents???????
17 comments:
"Let’s talk about the laity’s rights. Are they above canon and liturgical law?
Nope. I never suggested they were. YOU made that up out of thin air.
"What is implied here is that the laity have a right to plan their liturgical celebrations and the way in which they will be “Church” regardless of the Faith, Morals, and Canon Law of the Church."
Nope, again. Again, you made this up. You are given to creating an "argumentum ad absurdum" when, as usual you don't have a cogent response to something posted on your blog.
"But let’s talk about giving the people what they want."
OK. You can talk about that all you want - till you are blues in the face even. That's not what I was talking about, but if that is how you get your jollies, then damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
"'Pray, Pay, Obey' model" is a straw man. Before Vatican II Catholics understood that the Church was Apostolic, carrying out the wishes of the apostles including the sacraments. The Church was seen as faithfully guarding the Mass/Divine Liturgy throughout the centuries. Not even St Gregory the Great would dare touch the Roman Canon in any way. Worship was towards the Lord anticipating His return from the East, which is of apostolic origin. Thanks to the liturgical movement and Vatican II which supported it, the liturgy became seen as purely man made, a kind of contemporary stage play where the audience participates in its choreography and even the story line, a popular idea in the sixties and seventies in the theatre world, and otherwise known as active participation in the liturgical world. If the liturgy is purely man made then the baptized or even unbaptized should be given what they want.
Well anonymous, instead of just the "nope" litany, why don't you specify just what you WERE talking about? Instead of making accusations against Fr. Mc for jumping to conclusions, he's not the only one reading your comments who seems to draw the same assumptions. If we're wrong, fine, but EXPLAIN.
"Nope. Never said that. That's all in YOUR mind" doesn't tell us much.
No, not a straw man, a description of times past.
"Researcher says days of Catholics who ‘pay, pray and obey’ are gone
MIAMI – The days of Catholics who “pay, pray and obey” are gone and likely never coming back, according to a sociologist who has studied the beliefs and practices of American Catholics for more than two decades.
As a result, the church must find ways to reach new generations of Catholics who “don’t think church leaders are any wiser or any holier than they are,” said Purdue University’s James Davidson, who spoke at the opening session of the annual gathering of the Catholic Theological Society of America.
Davidson has conducted research on four generations of American Catholics, divided in relation to the 1962-65 Second Vatican Council: pre-Vatican II, those born in 1940 or earlier; Vatican II, born 1941-1960; post-Vatican II, born 1961-1982; and millennial, born since 1983. His findings set the tone for the June 5-8 conference, the theme of which was “Generations.”
Today’s Catholics are generally better off financially, better educated and more integrated into mainstream American culture than their pre-Vatican II counterparts, Davidson said.
They are no longer outsiders or victims of discrimination for whom the church was a refuge. They also grew up in a church where the emphasis shifted from the hierarchy to the people of God, from the ordained to the baptized."
More here: https://www.archbalt.org/researcher-says-days-of-catholics-who-pay-pray-and-obey-are-gone/
Tom Marcus - Fr. McDonald POSTED what I was talking about:
"Anonymous said...Anon 5:24 - You have a point, indeed. The presumption of many traditionalists is that people today are desirous of the "Pray, Pay, Obey" model of the "Good" Old Days of the Church. There may be a very small segment of the population that feels this way, but most are not inclined to be so.
The majority know that the Church belongs to all who are baptized, not just to the few who are ordained. That majority won't be told what to do and when to do it. Pastors who work in this outdated model will find that their flocks will, rightly, leave for places where their dignity will be respected."
That's what I was talking about. In that post do you find ANY evidence that I think people are above canon law or that they can plan funerals without regard to Faith and Morals?
No, it's not there - this is a total fabrication by Fr. McDonald.
Anonymous said..."The presumption of many traditionalists is that people today are desirous of the "Pray, Pay, Obey" model of the "Good" Old Days of the Church. There may be a very small segment of the population that feels this way, but most are not inclined to be so.
"That majority won't be told what to do and when to do it. Pastors who work in this outdated model will find that their flocks will, rightly, leave for places where their dignity will be respected."
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If we begin with our submission to holy Pope Francis, then His Holiness will lead us in peaceful fashion to the holy, proper, and wonderful understanding as to what it means to "pray, pay, and obey."
When we understand that holy concept, we will then experience the holiness and happiness that is associated with holy and humble submission to God and His holy pastors who have the right to teach, govern, and sanctify us.
To being, may the following from Pope Saint Pius X, 1912 A.D., via Rorate Caeli, enlighten the commenter in question:
-- "Love the Pope!" - no ifs, and no buts:
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/11/love-pope-no-ifs-and-no-buts-for.html
Excerpts:
The Pope is the guardian of dogma and of morals; he is the custodian of the principles that make families sound, nations great, souls holy...
"...love the Pope! And how must the Pope be loved? "...to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.
"Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed...
" when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents...
"...to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.
"...whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."
Always pray, pay, and obey in holy and humble fashion so as to please God, as well as serve Holy Mother Church.2
Pax.
Mark Thomas
As A @ 11:53 continues to encourage the baptized as opposed to the ordained, to plan their liturgies without any tribute to tradition, rubrics or the expectations of Holy Mother Church, let’s tear apart what the surveyor from Baltimore has to say.
Young people aren’t going to listen to authority. Have they ever?
And these ditties, people today prefer the “people of God” model of the Church and not the hierarchy model! What???? The hierarchy isn’ apart of the people of God???? Really?????
And they prefer the baptized to the ordained???? What, the ordained aren’t a part of the baptized???? Really???? Recent news about unbaptized priests notwithstanding.
“As we move from the pre-Vatican II generation to the millennial generation, we see that today’s young adults are less likely to use institutional rules and regulations as their criteria when judging who is and who isn’t a good Catholic; less attached to the church; and less willing to grant religious authorities the final say in deciding what is right and wrong,” Davidson said.
Of course this survey was taken in 2012 at the beginning of the proliferation of vocations to nones.
Yes, the commenter here wants a church of no rule, a church of anything goes without canon laws and doctors of the law, a church of only the baptized and no priests and church that is the people of God with excludes the hierarchy and a church that reaches out to the young and then makes nones out of them.
You can’t make this stuff up!
While it is wonderful to be popular and get droves of faithful, the Church's mission has to be first and foremost to give us the TRUTH.
Turning it all into, "If you do that, you'll lose members" game...well, that's about as credible as the mentality of the USCCB. And look how "faithful" (and "successful") they've been.
What we’re talking about here — a few kind and loving words about the decreased from those who knew them best — in no way violate either the letter or the spirit of church teaching. It is simply clericalism at its best. We are going to do it the way I’m used to doing it because I believe it’s right because it’s way I’m used to doing it because I believe it’s right and so on. And because I said so. As several folks have commented, it tells the bereaved that neither they nor the dearly departed matter much. Just another funeral, just another corpse on the assembly line.
Anonymous (at the top of the thread -- and presumably the same Anonymous quoted in the post) said, "That's not what I was talking about, but..."
OK, you've told us several times what you didn't say, or mean; so maybe you can spell out just what you DID mean? Because your brief comment wasn't particularly clear.
Koach K, KK,
What???? Kind words and as many and as many people giving them at the Vigil for the deceased doesn’t count??? Really???? Those word don’t matter??? Really???? It is clericalism not to have eulogizing by laity at Requiems!!! Really??? The homily which is not to be a eulogy is not good enough???? Really????? The Holy Sacrifice of the Requiem is just another Requiem, Judy another sacrifice, just another corpse? Just another Risen and Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Almighty God on the assembly line??????? REALLY????
Wow!!!!! When’s my Lyscinipril??????
"Anonymous said...Anon 5:24 - You have a point, indeed. The presumption of many traditionalists is that people today are desirous of the "Pray, Pay, Obey" model of the "Good" Old Days of the Church. There may be a very small segment of the population that feels this way, but most are not inclined to be so.
The majority know that the Church belongs to all who are baptized, not just to the few who are ordained. That majority won't be told what to do and when to do it. Pastors who work in this outdated model will find that their flocks will, rightly, leave for places where their dignity will be respected."
That comment was entirely clear until Fr. McDonald decided to respond with silliness and intentionally drag in issues that were not part of the comment.
Here's what is doesn't mean, and which no reasonable person could think it means:
It doesn't mean the clergy or the laity are above canon law. (That was Fr. McDonald first silly remark.)
It doesn't mean clergy or laity can ignore Faith, Morals, or Canon Law. (That was his second silly remark.)
It doesn't mean "They will no longer give sacrificially of the time, talent and treasure." (That was his third silly remark.)
It doesn't mean "They will no longer be obedient to God and Holy Mother Church." (That was his, well, you get my drift.)
It means that clergy have no right to expect that the laity in their parishes will ask "How high?" when the pastor tells them to jump. It means that "Father" should be consult widely before he makes major decisions and be open to the possibility that the laity will have better ideas than he has in a number of areas, especially those in which they have training and experience and in which he has none. This might include matters of Canon Law, Moral Theology, and Systematic Theology, especially in locations that have Catholic institutions of higher learning.
It means that the old model of the pastor who rules the roost is kaput, and "Father" had better think long and hard before trying to assert his "authority" when, in fact, he may have very little.
We have this conversation at least once a week:
TRADITIONALIST: Vat 2 is a disaster. People are leaving the Church in droves. We mist change everything back, pronto.
THE REST OF US: Actually, i know people, I talk to people and i know how to read public-opinion surveys. The biggest reasons people have left the Church are A, B, C and D (which we could roughly summarize as: The Church of my youth hasn’t changed enough.)
TRADITIONALIST: Irrelevant. Their feelings don’t matter. How dare they express an opinion?
So do they matter or not? Do their opinions matter only when it suits the Traditionalist agenda?
Sp: “Lisinopril”. I only know cusps I take it too...And I often need a bigger dose when I read “KK’s” (?) comments. (-:
A@3:04
It means that the old model of the pastor who rules the roost is kaput, and "Father" had better think long and hard before trying to assert his "authority" when, in fact, he may have very little.
Where do I begin???? O my?????? Pastor follow can law, pre-Vat II and post! Their authority is God given and codified in canon law. What are you talking about?.... Really???? No canon law??? Really!!!! Mob rule????? Really?????? O my! Really?????
Marcus Tullis Kanavaugh,
Nice try. Epic fail. You are a one trick pony
Father,
Your blog must be a success, because now you have two annoying trolls that won't go away: We have the slobbery, tiara-kissing MT and the antisocial contrarian, Anonymous.
Congratulations!
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