Thursday, January 14, 2016

PERHAPS THE HOLY FATHER IS BEGINNING TO REALIZE THAT DISCUSSION OF THIS, THAT OR THE OTHER THAT LEADS TO THE BELIEF THAT IMMUTABLE TRUTH CAN BE CHANGED, SUCH AS NATURAL LAW, IS CREATING A CHURCH OF THE 1970'S AGITATING FOR A CHURCH THAT IS NO LONGER CATHOLIC OR FOLLOWING CHRIST--SOME ECUMENICAL, INTERFAITH, SECULAR FRIENDLY BEAST WITH SEVEN HEADS

From the National Catholic Register by Ed Pentin:

BOMBSHELL: Honduran cardinal also rules out the Pope ever supporting same-sex 'marriage', saying the "natural law cannot be reformed".

(My comments first, then the NCRegister article next:)That some would characterize this statement by Cardinal Rodriquez a bombshell who is considered to be a progressive Churchman and early on in the pontificate of Pope Francis seem to advocate things that were bound to create "lio" problems, mistakes, agitation, in the Church similar to what the Church had experienced in the immediate aftermath of an incorrect method of interpreting the documents of Vatican II is stunning! The very ones all the way up to the Holy Father have created "lio" or false expectations about the future direction of the Church and now they are having to backtrack and shut the very doors they have opened to all the confusion now reigning in the Church.

The Cardinal teaches the obvious Church teaching and some think it is a bombshell! What is happening here?

It seems now that we see the Holy Father and his closest adviser closing doors they opened, Pandora's Box. It is hard to close Pandora's Box once the highest officials of the Church have pried it open again.

We have to realize that the liberalization of Catholicism has been and will continue to be a disaster for the Church as it has been for liberal Protestantism since the late 1800's with its apex now in the Anglican Communion on the verge of extinction. 

Religious Orders in the late 1960's and 70's went through what they thought was a wonderful process of prayer, reflection, open discussion that led to a consensus for reform that was then approved and implemented. They idolized the "process" that led to "consensus" that then led to "reform."

It was like the new math, the answer didn't matter as much as the process by which the answer was arrived. One could still get a good grade if the process of answering the math question or equation was good even though the answer was wrong.

And wrong, wrong, wrong were the answers of the decisions that were made by process and consensus of once strong religious orders who today are on the verge of collapse as is the Anglican Communion.  These 1960's types in the Church want to do for the Universal Church what they have done for Religious Orders, destroy them and then call it "renewal" the ultimate lie.

Cardinal Rodriguez: Homosexual Lobby Exists in the Vatican

01/13/2016 , National Catholic Register
Wikipedia
Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga

Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga has confirmed the presence of a homosexual “lobby” in the Vatican and revealed that Pope Francis is trying “little by little to purify it.”

The Honduran Archbishop of Tegucigalpa, who coordinates the Council of Nine cardinals advising the Pope on reform of the Roman Curia and Church governance, was responding to a question from a Honduran newspaper reporter who asked him whether there had been “an attempt to infiltrate the gay community in the Vatican, or a moment when that had actually happened?”

Cardinal Rodriguez replied: “Not only that, also the Pope has said there is even a ‘lobby’ in this sense. Little by little the Pope is trying to purify it.” He added: “One can understand them [members of the lobby] and there is pastoral legislation to attend to them, but what is wrong cannot be truth.”

The Pope acknowledged the presence of a homosexual network of priests at the Vatican during a private conversation with leaders of a Latin American confederation of religious in June 2013. In the context of saying he found reform of the Roman Curia difficult, the Pope said: "The 'gay lobby' is mentioned, and it is true, it is there … We need to see what we can do."

He alluded to it again a month later, telling reporters on the plane back from Rio de Janeiro that “you must distinguish between the fact of a person being gay and the fact of someone forming a lobby, because not all lobbies are good. This one is not good.”

A homosexual lobby was also suspected to have been influential on both Synods on the Family when controversial passages relating to homosexuals made their way into the interim report during the 2014 meeting despite being hardly discussed, and external lobby groups sought to pressure the participants.

There was also a common perception that the Communion for remarried divorcees issue, which dominated both synods, was a “Trojan horse” to allow Church recognition of same-sex relationships and other extra-marital unions. (My comment: If someone in an adulterous  marriage or two unmarried people living as a couple that mocks marriage are allowed to receive Holy Communion, then anyone in a state of unrepentant mortal sin will be allowed, encouraged to receive Holy Communion as though the Host is a magic bullet that will purified them of their mortal sin or create forgiveness and Full Communion with the Church defacto--it is a lie in other words and from Satan the father of lies.)


During last year’s synod, statements on homosexuality “seemed to come out of nowhere” at press briefings when the issue was hardly raised by synod fathers during the three week meeting.

The comments from the Pope and now Cardinal Rodriguez contradict those made by Father Krzysztof Charamsa, a homosexual Polish priest who was dismissed as an official at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith after publicly announcing his homosexuality just ahead of the Synod on the Family last October. He told Italian television he had "never met a gay lobby in the Vatican".

Also in the interview with Heraldo de Honduras, Cardinal Rodriguez was asked whether the Pope would ever support same-sex “marriage.”

“No,” he replied. “We must understand that there are things that can be reformed and others cannot. The natural law cannot be reformed. We can see how God has designed the human body, the body of the man and the body of a woman to complement each other and transmit life. The contrary is not the plan of creation. There are things that cannot be changed."

The cardinal also tried to reassure readers there would be “no major” changes to doctrine as part of the Pope's reforms. “We should not expect there will be major reforms in the doctrine of the Church. The reform is the organization of the curia.”

He also said there has not been much resistance to curial reform. “There is resistance of course, there are people who, precisely because they do not know the life of the Church, resist any changes.

“These, of course, are wrong attitudes,” he continued. “As I’ve said, to be able to understand the Church, we must see that it is not merely a human institution, it is humane-divine, it is natural and supernatural and, by consequence, there are things that do not really depend on what is human.” (My comment: If this statement isn't pre-Vatican II then I don't know what is, but pre-Vatican II isn't bad, it can be very, very good!)

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

Who cares the damage has been done.

This Cardinal has sown so much division in the Church that he has no moral authority at all. He stands for nothing. As for Francis, well his actions/speech and his inability to show any self control show exactly who he is.

How sad to see Our Lord betrayed again and again by these unfit professional clerics. Men like these are raised up while truly good, holy, gentle men like Cardinal Burke are held up for ridicule.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

The good superior Catholic that you are, traditionalist, I suspect, you will appreciate my admonition to you a la the 1950's version of Catholicism, which I don't despise, btw, and that is to say to you directly that your hopelessness, cynicism and internal anger directed at anyone, non member of the Church, member of the Church, clergy, religious or hierarchy to include our Holy Father, is sinful and seriously so and you should know that and if you are this way with full consent of the will and not frequenting the Sacrament of Confession as medicine for your soul and seriously wrong mentality, you are in a state of mortal sin and your soul is in jeopardy.

I think, too, that your cynicism and hopelessness, your negativity about the guidance of the Church by the Holy Spirit, is heretical although I won't call for an inquisition. I suspect you feel the same way about Christ's failure that led to his execution. He was God, He could have stopped it by fiat!

Gene said...

Well, Fr., Anonymous above is correct in that a lot of damage has been done. I think sufficient ambiguity regarding doctrine/pastoral practice has been created that we now have a qualitatively different Catholic Church in which room has been made for all kinds of conflicting beliefs and behaviors with regard to formerly unquestionable doctrine. The behaviors and moral interpretations exhibited by a large number of Priests, Bishops, and laymen that go unchallenged and that are accepted within a large number of parishes are an exact mirror of what happened to protestantism. It is very much like what has happened to our larger culture in the US and, as I have said before, the actions and corrections needed would now be considered "too radical" so that our passionless, soulless, morally compromised leaders and peers would never step out of their trembling, rationalizing mediocrity to change anything. The Church will continue as she is...compromised, ambivalent, and more and more ineffectual with regard to any true public witness to Christian truth and the Gospel message. This is called "judgement," and if you do not think God judges the Church through history, then some Biblical review is in order. The Church has been in her "long dark night of the soul" now since at least Vat II.

Gene said...

The situation does not have to be one of "hopelessness and cynicism." It should rather be one of acknowledgement of God's presence and judgement in the world and of His dynamic will in the life of His people. The Church has no monopoly on God's presence or on the action of the Holy Spirit. If the Church is failing and under Divine judgement then we, as devout Christians and Catholics, continue seeking true worship and the true preaching of the Gospel while we await God's revelation of where the true Church will abide. Dare I post the following:
"That Word above all earthly powers
No thanks to them abideth.
The Spirit and the gifts are our's
Through Him who with us sideth.
Let goods and kindred go
This mortal life also
The body they may kill,
God's truth abideth still
His Kingdom is forever."

Anonymous said...

You know what Father, Francis isn't God. There is no comparing him with Jesus Christ. Christ never compromised the truth and NEVER apologized to anyone by the way. Regardless what that fount of wisdom Francis says. Christ never allowed the impression that to tolorate sin was merciful.

From the first moment of his election Francis has purposefully, PURPOSEFULLY been demoralizing the faithful few that remain in the Church and actually believe in the Catholic Faith.

The majority of people who identify as Catholics don't believe in anything the Church teaches. Call me a crazy trad but that's a problem. Not on the level of using air conditioning but a problem.

The murder of innocent defenseless unborn children by their mothers is considered normal and good, yet Francis thinks lonely old people and unemployed young people are two greatest problems in the world.

The sacrament of marriage is being viciously attacked, whole nations have turned from Christ and His Vicar is silent. Yet he will call a committed adulteress half way around the world to tell her it's okay to go to communion. Ya I can see Jesus Christ doing the same thing can't you.

I see you are still making rash judgements about not only the state of my soul but now you also of my mind. I must admit your language is more tempered (at least you didn't lash out call me a Protestant this time. Which by the way is your way of trying to insult separated brethren. The charity the charity). But thank god for small favors. Brick by brick right Father.

Francis and his cohorts never stop causing chaos and confusion and I will not stop crying out against what they are doing. I am a Catholic which means I am not a pope worshipper. I worship God and God alone. No pope is God and no pope has the right or authority to promote his own personal agenda. That's called clericalism. God said Thou shalt not commit adultery, among other things. And no one not even Francis can change it......which he has been trying to do for 3 years and we all know it. You can keep up the Alinsky playbook assaults all you want. I don't care what you think about me.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I am calling out the cynicism and negativity of those who don't trust in the Holy Spirit to heal that damage that any of us do to the Church to include the pope, this one or any pope.

The cynicism and negativity I am calling out is a hopelessness that the pope, any pope, can destroy the Church and all is lost as though the enemy would prevail against the Church which our Lord said the devil would not, try as he might and does.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I might add too, that the Holy Spirit may well be changing the haughty mentality that exists in the Vatican today and inspired by Pope Francis that has opened the Pandora's Box once again and which they appear now to be trying to close--something positive is happening and I will be the first to say that it is the Holy Spirit doing it!

Marc said...

Father, have you considered that the Holy Ghost expects those of us who hold the Catholic faith to be the ones who heal the damage caused by the erring pope, bishops, and priests? Have you considered that the way that the Holy Ghost ensures that the pope does not destroy the Church is through the faithful standing up to the pope's errors? We are the only hands that God has in this world, so we are called upon to do his work -- we cannot sit idly by and let the pope and his like-minded bishops and cardinals ransack the Church. Do you expect the Holy Ghost to work in some other way than through the faithful laity, priests, and bishops?

What prompts us to continue to hold the faith and fight for Christ is not cynicism and negativity leading to hopelessness. We are hopeful that the reign of Christ the King will be restored in the Church. That isn't going to happen by doing nothing and by remaining silent. If we were silent, it would demonstrate that we had given up. Our lack of silence proves our trust that the Holy Ghost is at work and that he is using us to accomplish his tasks in this world, just as he has always done.

Anonymous said...

This is how Hanna Arendt describes modernity:

Modernity is the age of bureaucratic administration ... of elite domination and the manipulation of public opinion. It is the age when totalitarian forms of government, such as Nazism and Stalinism, have emerged as a result of the institutionalization of terror and violence. ....

Modernity is the age where the past no longer carries any certainty of evaluation, where individuals, having lost their traditional standards and values, must search for new grounds of human community as such. (Stamford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

She has much more to say of course. However, the last sentence applies to what transpired in the Catholic Church since Vatican 2 when the historical magisterium was discredited and abolished in practice in the name of the spirit of the Council. As it happened in the secular sphere of life, our religion was emptied of the old "standards and values" which until then "carried certainty of evaluation" so that the faithful would always know what was genuine, orthodox or heterodox, those things that authentically connected our system of doctrines to the Gospels as interpreted by the Fathers and Saints of the Church.

What Arendt said about secular history breaking under the forces of Modernity, Benedict XVI recognized also happening to the Catholic Church as well. Of course, the Church was under attack before Vatican 2 also but due to God's grace we were able to hold a line long after the collapse of the secular world. Benedict XVI also realized that the solution was "reform the reform" because one can never return to the past, that it is necessary to find new values and standards that are consistent with orthodoxy in faith. Vatican 2 promised that but it failed to find the way to do it. Some believe the Spirit of the Council folks never intended to do what they promised. Certainly, one can see plenty of evidence of their failure (success?) in the chaotic disorder prevailing in the Church.

Fr. McDonald, the negativity you see in the comments is explained by the seriousness of the situation. Right now, one can only see further deconstruction, further erosion of values and standards being introduced when what is achingly evident that a continuation of the reform of the reform is urgently called for. We know God is in charge; we are his church and he will not fail us in the long run. We must pray that the coming correction will happen soon.

Anonymous said...

Veni Sancte Spiritus!

I see people becoming more Holy, I see people sitting in the pews with crazy heterodox ideas. I see people seeking truth, I see people twisting themselves into pretzels avoiding truth. This craziness is actually what convinces me how much the world needs the Church. There are no Churchmen that have not lived in this secular culture, its hard to blame anyone for thinking in a secular way, I catch myself doing it, more than I would like.

Read about the saints, they had lived through hard times too.

When someone tells you to do something or beleive something that is not Catholic, do what the first Christians did, say "non possumus"

Anonymous said...

Father why are you so quick to name call and judge faithful Catholics who are rightly horrified by the actions/words of this pope and of so many bishops and priests?

For the last 50 years we have see every single aspect of the Faith we love changed, altered or discarded. Not to mention the reputation of Holy Mother Church thrown into the mud by the evil, sick, scandalous, arrogant sinful behavior of numerous clerics.

As a faithful Catholic I am more than willing to accept the Mass of Paul VI, I just wish it were celebrated. Instead we have the Mass according to the whims of which priest happens to be saying it at the time. Enough is enough.

As a faithful priest you should be trying to help us not accuse us and definitely not rationalizing the scandalous words and behavior of this imprudent pope. When he is wrong he is wrong.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I will never support any lay person trying to discredit a pope, bishop or priest on their own authority. As a traditional priest I support the Magisterium of the Church and those who are responsible for its management and the prophetic voice when it is needed and done in a respectful way and I suspect that is taking place already as we saw at the synod. They are the ones to do it and respectfully. The voices of the laity are to be heard when it is respectful and not divisive or of the Martin Luther brand.

Marc said...

When a pope, bishop, priest, or anyone else errs in conveying Christ's teachings, they need to be discredited. Traditional priests know that, and they routinely preach on these issues so that their flock are educated with regard to the errors and the proper response. I suspect that commenters here with access to traditional priests have heard sermons on the current state of the crisis. Those commenters are not relying on their own authority, but are commenting on the basis of what their traditional priests have taught them.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

No one in my parish as a homily has heard me ever discredit Pope Francis or any pope and I have often quoted Pope Francis in my homilies and catechesis as I did Pope Benedict and St. John Paul II. It would be a source of possible suspension if a priest bad mouthed his bishop or the Bishop of Rome in a formal setting or called either of them out for this, that or the other. It would go directly against his promise/vow to obey and respect his bishop which also included through his bishop, the Bishop of Rome.

Marc said...

I would've expected nothing less from you. After all, you aren't a traditional priest. And you don't seem to understand that Christ comes before the pope.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Marc, you don't seem to understand what Christ teaches concerning the pope and every other person. It is the two greatest commandments. This traditional priest is in full communion with the Holy Roman Catholic Church which has as the Vicar of Christ, the Successor of St. Peter, whom Christ appointed, btw, a pope which we call Holy Father, or papa/pope in the familiar. Traditional Catholic priests in full communion with Christ's Church are in no way schismatic or semi-schismatic.

Joe Potillor said...

I have to agree in part, the damage has been done...and it's going to be quite a while before we recover from this.

While it never should have come down to this in the first place, if the HF is starting to clean up and pay more attention to what he's saying this is a good thing.

Marc is correct in his substance, perhaps not discredited is the word to use there, simply corrected would work. Our obedience to Christ is greater than anything, errors, whenever and by whomever they're committed by need to be corrected, or pointed out so that a response can be done accordingly....of course it's also true that as lay people we can take matters in a vigilante style and take it in our hands.

Times like these, the bottom up approach of the east, seems to work a bit better....it is neither 100% of the pope's words or 0% of the pope's words are orthodox, it's some undefined percentage in between. The pope is certainly not impeccable, and only infallible on faith and morals only when he re-states, or defines what has previously been taught. (Aka he has zero power to invent, or change the teachings of Christ)...popes can and do make mistakes, what we can't do is read intention, or read the state of his soul, for that we do not know...We pray for the Holy Father for a reason, if he were unable to make mistakes, or even have a possibility of being a heretic, it'd be rather pointless to pray for him.

Julian Barkin said...

Marc that is disgusting of you to slander this good and holy priest, one who is able to see the devil's lies and filth in the hypocrisy from those who exhibit Radical Traditonalism. Shame on you for your vile and sacrosanct attack on Fr AJM, just cause he doesn't think as harsh about Pope Francis as You. You clearly do not know your "T" Traditonalism from your "t" Traditonalism. For such utter disrespect of this priest perhaps you should get off this blog, pray a lot, and perhaps seek spiritual council.

Course if your spiritual pride gets the best of you, you can leave the Church (or the "church" which is inferior to the "C"hurch in your mind) and go be with the SSPX or the sedevacantists, at the cost or possible to definite damnation of your soul.

Honestly, all of you in general wonder why most Catholics don't want Traditonalism or the Latin Mass, as Msgr. Pope is forewarning in its future? Marc is a perfect example, as well as other commentators like some of the anonymi here on S.O.

Gene said...

Julian, don't you have a quiche to cook or some peppermint schnapps that needs drinking?

Gene said...

Anon @ 9:17...I find Arendt's comments on violence and revolution to be particularly appropriate for us today, and her views on bureaucracy are quite compelling. A brilliant woman and a first class scholar.

Anonymous said...

Fr McDonald:

Peter had to be corrected when he seemed to want to derail his Master's plan for the salvation of humankind (Jesus: Get behind me Satan! etc.). Later, Peter denied Jesus three times in the High Priest's courtyard; then, he repented. Without repentance Peter might have joined Judas as a heretic. Just saying.


Flavius Hesychius said...

Marc that is disgusting of you to slander this good and holy priest, one who is able to see the devil's lies and filth in the hypocrisy from those who exhibit Radical Traditonalism. Shame on you for your vile and sacrosanct attack on Fr AJM, just cause he doesn't think as harsh about Pope Francis as You. You clearly do not know your "T" Traditonalism from your "t" Traditonalism. For such utter disrespect of this priest perhaps you should get off this blog, pray a lot, and perhaps seek spiritual council.

Wow... just... wow...

Calm down, please.

Vox Cantoris said...

Julian, you are wrong and you need to stop "slandering" your fellow Catholics with your rad-trad, mad-trad ideology. It is not these that keep the traditional rite from growing; it is a hatred of the truth. Msgr. Pope is quite wrong from my experience right in the same city which you live. In fact, the very opposite is true.

Julian Barkin said...

Fr AJM. Care to comment on the latest developments here on this thread?

Julian Barkin said...

Alright, good to see this thread is puttering out. I'll come back here, and just say my parting words for this posting and wait for more promising things here on S.O.

Taking a little time of reflection and spiritual time with out Lord, I'll say that I admit that Flavius was right. Despite my good intention to defend Fr AJM, I definitely overstepped my language in defending Father. To Marc I do apologize for the harshness of my language and tone. I could have said what I needed in much better language.

However, I hope you all realized what I was trying to do. It's bad enough the church climate out here in the World with the devil roaming about, and clearly as we have witnessed (and some of you even have taken to the Internet to decry,) there is much wrongdoing going on in our INSTITUTIONAL Church. We all want Tradition and holiness restored and even "t"radition in our liturgy restored such as with the Latin Mass. What makes this worse or even destroys progress, is when we take the tactics of our enemies, and lash out at our allies, who are of the minority trying to restore traditon. When we attack others for the sake of misunderstood "T"radition or our own definitions of such/standards we only aid the Devil.

Honestly, Fr AJM is saying the black, doing the red, and thinking with the Mind of the Church on many matters. He's even ADMITTED to his former, heterodox ways public ally which most priests of that era, likely won't. If other priests read this blog (and they do e.g. Fr Kavanaugh,) what is this saying to them? It says "we don't care if you do the Latin Mass or love T/t radition to us. We will still hate you if you don't meet our orthodox standards." Friendly fire is killing things for everyone guys. It only makes those on the fence more cowardly NOT to step up their liturgical/theological game, strengthens the Libs to say "I told you so," and makes trade more hated.

Getting tired of all the damage control myself and others have to, I can't stand it. So I defended father.

And if you cannot see that or want to keep detracting (incl. me ...) then may the Lord's mercy be on all of us.

Pax tibi Christi, and good day.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Julian - No one, including me, "hates" Fr. McDonald. We disagree - fraternally.

Fr. McDonald never engaged in "heterodox" ways to my knowledge. Describing it thusly is more than a little over the top.

When disagreements lead you to choose sides - when you choose to talk about "allies" and "enemies" - then, I would suggest, the Devil is being mightily aided.

That's Zero Sum reasoning and, in terms of faith and religion, harmful and unnecessary. It is the demonization of those with whom you disagree. It leads to Victim Think: "Look at what those terrible people who don't want to celebrate the mass according to the Extraordinary Form are doing to us!"

The next step in the process is violence - verbal, written (blogs posts), or physical.

Julian Barkin said...

Hello Father Kavanaugh. I wasn't going to repost, though with your reply I'd like to comment.

I'm glad that at least you personally, have no grudge against Fr AJM or generally tradition. I meant that one, priests do read this blog and you were proof of that, and two, that this is the impression that other priests might get from this blog. And depending on your "stripe" the actions of those who comment, blog, take leadership, etc. and do the behaviors you suggest, would result in a reaction or more undue stress and damage control because of said actions.

About Fr AJM and the heterodoxy, he did admit in a few posts he dabbled in that Spirit of Vatican II theology and some liturgical practices, which in thanks to a recently deceased bishop, he was instructed properly and fraternally in a better direction. Guess my words were a little harsh. I can be blunt like that.

I didn't mean personally that you have any hate here, it was more a generalization. But your words definitely are right. And I think what you've described sounds similar to a post I read on the steps that allowed the Nazi's in World War II to persecute the Jews, like 5 steps to get to genocide.

Thanks for chiming in Fr and for your fraternal, charitable advice. All the best to you and I'll keep you in my prayers.