Here is Fr. Z's slavishly, literal translation of the Latin:
SLAVISHLY LITERAL VERSION:
O God, who declare that You remain in upright and pure hearts,
grant us to manifest ourselves to be, by Your grace,
the sort of people in whom You deign to dwell.
COLLECT
Lame Duck:
God our Father,
you have promised to remain forever
with those who do what is just and right.
Help us to live in your presence.
Forthcoming Beijing Duck:
O God, who teach us that you abide
in hearts that are just and true,
grant that we may be so fashioned by your grace
as to become a dwelling pleasing to you.
AFTER COMMUNION
Lame duck
Lord, you give us food from heaven.
May we always hunger
for the bread of life.
Forthcoming Beijing Duck:
Having fed upon these heavenly delights,
we pray, O Lord,
so that we may always long
for that food by which we truly live.
So, which one do you think God will find most fitting in our prayer and worship of Him who has given us the words anyway? I'm so sick of trying to please people, let's try to please God with our Mass translations! Just my 2 cents worth and for what it's worth.
23 comments:
I really like that collect. That is a fine prayer for each morning.
rcg
Why in the world would you think God cares?
Brian, if you are trolling and have something to contribute, think about it a bit and try to post a complete thought.
You'll need to establish your perspective, too, as that question would seem to come from someone who is not a Catholic.
rcg
How should I know which one God would find more fitting?
The one prayed with understanding and a humble and earnest heart.
Regardless, Beijing Duck will have to do....it's the only choice on the new menu!
To Brian:
Because God made us to know, love and serve Him.
So He loves us and thus wants the best from us.
"You have no need of our praise yet our desire to thank you is itself your gift."
Rcg, the question was which God would find more fitting. I think my answer was appropriate.
Exactly Brian, faith is a gift, God has no need for us to believe in Him either, but faith is His Gift and so is our thanksgiving and prayer, and it is a gift when we want to give God the best we can and reform the words when they fall short--It's for God! The desire to give God the best is itself God's gift, although He has no need, but evidently God has a desire for it. No?
I think you are falling into the trap of ascribing human emotions to God. Human beings may have that kind of desire, but the Creator of the Universe, the One Who Is and Who Is To Come, the Alpha and the Omega would have no such desire.
Brian, I'm hesitant to call you a heretic, but through the Incarnation God does indeed have emotions! In fact, Jesus shows us just how Godly these emotions are!
This comment may be thought inapplicable to the point, but proper translation is a companion of truth - of the reality of the liturgy. Some who should know better are disdainful of faithful translations and even use corny exapmple to illustrate their attack.
I saw but could not re-find Frajm's coments about the disaster in Belgium's culture and Catholic population (where is that comment?). Trite perhaps, but the truth does indeed set us free. Consider the wonderful effect of orthodoxy at Texas A & M. See George Weigel article at:
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/02/aggie-catholic-renaissance.
What a bastardization of our language we have seen over the last 40-50 years. "Progressive" is now synonymous with "failure" and "destruction." To the progressives, orthodoxy is "divisive." Tolerance has only one side - the narcissistic side. Same with bi-partisanship.
Hopefully more to the point, truth in translation and the reform of the reform, rather than pandering to the current mores, will bring retain our youth, our adults and bring lapsed Catholics back home.
Frajm would you please start a new thread expanding on your answer to Brian about God having emotions via the Incarnation. I can understand how Jesus, via his human nature, had emotions and suffering, but have difficulty understanding how emotions and pain are consonant with his divine nature. If God is perfect, how can he change in any respect? Obviously God “has expectations” of us humans, and it would seem logical that he can suffer disappointment and sadness when we sin.
I think about God's anger expressed in the Old Testament.
I can well imagine that a lot of people need enlightenment on this subject. Akin to it is the assertion that we can't "change God's mind." Some then say, “why pray?” How do we distinguish between God's providence and that assertion. I try to explain that by there being no time with God who knows from all eternity who will pray, when, for what and how much. Otherwise, why would we pray both for “the faithful departed” and for “the souls in Purgatory?” I continue to pray for the soul of a friend who was found dead of a drug overdose, perhaps while in the company of a woman not his wife. My reason for doing so is the belief that God can apply my prayer for his happy death even though that death occurred years ago. HELP!
Brian, you're getting plenty of answers, but it seems you are worried about degrees. They are all inadequate. But these are prayers we are trying to communicate with each other as much as God. The authors of this prayers do not have the benefit of a lengthy discussion and must leave a tightly executed statement that will put the reader in the a mind that is as close as possible to the understanding of the original author. We have the pleasant task of meditating on this verse for years and building the prism of its many meanings.
Since salvation and grace are gifts and not earned we demonstrate our sincerity through dedicating ourselves to acknowledging that gift, however inadequate that acknowledgement maybe.
rcg
How sad, yet predictable. A heretic? I said that you were ascribing HUMAN emotion, with all its flaws and sin, to God.
So, does God desire praise the way we desire praise? No. Might God desire praise in some other way? Perhaps, but I doubt it.
God does not desire or need praise, he commands it. Praise is our duty toward him, demanded by Him, and it is also a privelege granted by Him. God in His sovreignty is inscrutable; we cannot plumb His nature with philosophical logic (does God change? Can He nake a stone so heavy he can't lift it, etc.) We were supposed to have put those sort of questions to rest in Philosophy 101. Our only proper response, if we are Christians, to His mystery and might is praise and obedience.
But, for what it is worth: God in His essence does not "change" as we understand change through time. God wills...from all eternity. God may will that RCG be changed into a monkey from all eternity; He may also will that RCG remain a somewhat obnoxious Scotsman. God as eternal, timeless, and omnscient can will both of these things together from all eternity without changing his essential being. God experiences no ontological change, although we experience His perfect and permissive will as existential change, or change in time. Now, even if there is change in God, it is change that He himself posited, so what's the big deal?
PS I sort of like the monkey option for RCG.LOL!
PPS Christ is God; God is Christ; Christ experienced the full range of human emotion (yet without sin) ergo....
Pin--show me where God commands praise. Ludicrous.
Well Brian, what do you think of pin's PPS?
I also like ..."he commands it".
THY will be done.
Matt.4:9-10..."and (Satan) said unto him,'all these I will give you if you will fall down and worship me.' Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan,for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."
John 4:24..."But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship Him."
And, now, just for fun, hear Jeremiah on not worshipping the true God properly: "...for the Lord has spoken. Give glory to the Lord your God before he brings darkness, before your feet stumble on the twilight mountains...I myself will lift up your skirts over your face and your shame will be seen, for I have seen your abominations...."
False worship of other God's, improper worship of God...these things kind of set God off, as we say. So, in more modern language, He says to Israel, "I'm gonna show your a-- to the world."
Now, Brian, I am using "worship" and "praise" synonymously, in case you want to play word games.
I'm guessing you are an undergrad somewhere. What'd you do, stumble on to this Blog while looking for a download of "Grand Theft Auto" or the Cliff Notes to "Jane Eyre?"
Monkey. Feh. It would simply mean I have both hands free for mischief.
rcg
Mr. Pin,
There is indeed a difference between praise and worship, so it is you playing word games.
Your ad hominem attacks at the end of your post speaks of your character and the weakness of your argument.
Praise and worship are inseparable, both in the Psalms and in the Prophets. Read Ps. 145-150 and you will see that praise is equated with worship and is used in conjunction with such words as laud, extol, bless, etc. You are being silly...however, if I must get down the Hebrew dictionary and annotations, ok:
"Pi'el" is the most widely used term, which directly implies worship, "Halleluja, praise JHWH." It is actually the Hebrew title to the book of Psalms.
"Hiph'il" means thanksgiving praise, The root (my keyboard does not have Hebrew figures)is also a part of the words "to bless, "to sing," "to shout," and "to rejoice." If that ain't worship, then there ain't a cow in Texas.
Praise is the mode of Hebrew worship, meaning to glorify Him, give thanks to Him, and extol His name.
"Worship" itself is an Anglo-Saxon word. Praise is the closest thing to "worship" in the hebrew language.
Ad hominem is a tactic whereby one attacks the man instead of his argument. In this case, I am attacking both the argument and the man, or kid, whichever. Besides, ad hominem can be fun. I do not engage in ad hominem from the negative approach of having no other recourse. I do it positively because sometimes it is richly deserved.
Now, do you have anything to contribute to this Blog or are you just here seeking attention?
Brian, you can further back and refer to the first three commandments.
Don't let pin make you angry. Think about it this way: if you lose yourself the truth will find you and you can't take it personally. What he is doing, in a left-handed fashion, is demonstrating that you are over emphasising 'you'.
rcg, (primatus inter pares)
Very clever, "primatus" RCG. I find your wit disgusting only because I often cannot match it.
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