Let's just say they feel like those who are schooled in the reform of the liturgy within continuity when they see this:
Now, if we are going to have some over the top types of celebration of Holy Mass, which do you prefer, Cardinal Burke's variety or the other type?
30 comments:
Give me a cappa magna over a bulbous red nose and facepaint any day!
It occurred to me that your fellow theologians at PrayTell might be edified by the photos at
http://www.icrsp.org/IMAGES-APOSTOLATS/IMAGES-2011/GRICIGLIANO/Ordinations-Diaconales/Ordination.htm
particularly page 1 featuring that cappa magna with its wonderful ermine collar, which may well set a new post-SP standard for cardinalatial attire.
Ornate presentation can be a show of respect, ala gold, frankincense and myrrh. Whether it is over the top or offensive can be in the eye of the beholder so education is important. People need to know this a representative of our respect, like the fine Church od Saint Joseph. They are not his personal clothing: I doubt the Cardinal wears these raiments around the house while watching football.
The clowns are an affectation that has stuck with a certain generation of 'Jesus Freaks' and won't leave us until the last baby Boomer is laid to rest. We can expect to see jugglers at funeral Mass' until 2035.
For example, I think Pinan still has a copy of Godspell in the 8-track of his pick up.
rcg
I want "Bring in the Clowns" sung at my Requiem! Of course, I do get freaked out by them for some reason, maybe because of John Wayne Gacy?
Would you please put these unhelpful stereotypes aside? In fact, these are not even stereotypes. They are outrageous and unfounded straw men.
Yes, anything dealing with the liturgy (EF or OF) these days is a hot button issue.
It seems to me that posts like this are simply and unnecessarily poking people in the eye.
Can we please have some intelligent discussion and attempt to foster unity within the church rather than pointing fingers at your so called "progressive liturgists."
Thank you.
Well, in a sense it is pointing fingers at both progressives and traditionalists. The legitimate question is, which of the extremes highlighted deforms the Mass, since both are seldom done anymore but are still done occasionally.
Some of these "experts" need a bit of poking in the eye because they have used their invented language of "reform" like a club to beat traditionalists over the head for close to 40 years now.
The Holy Father would like all of the bishops and priests to show their unity this Advent by faithfully preparing their congregations for the new translations of the Missal. Yet these very "progressives" are crying "foul" and begging bishops conferences to back out of the new translation. But let ANY conservative or traditionalist group so much as question ANY liturgical abuse or novelty and they are immediately accused of fostering "disunity" or being "schismatic".
In all honesty, no one really needs to be poked in the eye, but I think it's high time for the so-called progressives to own up to their hypocrisy. Then again, don't hold your breath.
Unhelpful stereotypes? Straw men (a favorite phrase of your's Ignotus)? You, you of all people, complaining about pokes in the eye when all you have done on this Blog is attack Fr., question his intelligence, his understanding of liturgy, his motives. You have been smug, condescending, and sarcastic to everyone throughout. Can you say, "hypocrisy?" Gee, I'm so sorry you are offended. Now, run on along to your juggling lessons...
Remember, the Cappa Magna is NOT a liturgical vestment. It was formally and publicly removed before the prelate vested for mass. In a sense, he was "laying aside" his earthly power (which the cappa represents) before donning the mass vestments that were proper to any priest/prelate.
It is the "earthly power" that is, for me, highly problematic in the so-called restoration of the use of the cappa. Prelates, often from noble or aristocratic families, aped the secular trappings of the royal courts of their days. That's where the cappa originates. And it wasn't always aping - Prelates in those days actually HAD courtiers, hangers on, and other assorted sycophants to do their bidding.
Being a sign of earthly, not spiritual, power, the use of the cappa magna was rightly eliminated. I don't see that it has any proper place in the Church today, save for the overly nostalgic and the self-deluded.
Father,
Echoing FJH3rd, I will take a Cappa Magna any day!
It strikes me that the REAL Giuseppe Sarto (St. Pius X) came from a poor family. There are plenty of photos that show HIM wearing those self-deluded trappings.
Oh, I forgot, we're not supposed to honor THAT saint. After all, that "schismatic" group took his name, so he's completely discredited.
NOT!
@pinanv525
Cool it. I've never even commented on this site before, so don't assume that you know me.
It's because of people like you that I feel compelled to comment anonymously.
Thanks for the lesson on hypocrisy.
Why can't clowns laugh at themselves?
rcg
Sarto/Ignotus/Kavanaugh:
You mean like the post Vat II progressives "ape" secularism today with their innovative Masses and social work orientation and your nuns sans habits? You mean "hangers on" like all the big name cafeteria Catholic politicians who continue to receive while openly voicing support for abortion, gay marriage, and birth control? You mean sycophants like the Bishops who glad hand with secularist anti-Church Washington politicians and voted for Obama?
You mean "earthly power" like the politicians and celebrities who vociferously hate the Catholic Church but for whom the Catholic laity to vote and pay money to watch perform?
Earthly power...you're kidding right? While you and others like you in the Church support Socialist and progressive reform within and without the Church which will ultimately lead to its marginalization. It continues to amaze me how blind people like you are to their own self-delusion...and apparent nostalgia for Stalin, Mussolini, and Gorbacev. I'm going to have some Scotch...
I think this article would seem to sum up this blog post as well as the comments that have followed it:
http://www.insidecatholic.com/feature/those-angry-traditionalists.html
PS Guissepe Sarto (Pope Pius X) was hard core orthodox/traditional.
Pin, I have not attacked Fr. McDonald. I have disagreed with him (and you), but I have never, not once, attacked. I am not smug nor have I been condescending. You confuse a person's academic and/or professional expertise condescension. That is unfortunate.
I am not more sarcastic than you, so stop calling this kettle black.
The main difference 'tween me and thee is that I don't react with anger and sniddity (the act of being snide) when someone offers an opinion or a perspective I might not share.
You do, which makes an intelligent conversation or even a heated debate rather difficult. That's your choice.
Sarto/Whoever, "People like me" have the integrity and the stones to list our personal information for all to see and do not need to hide behind some stupid anonymous in order not to be accountable for our comments. The Blog listed my email instead of my name. It is Gene Williams...nice to meet ya'. At least, you chose a decent anonymous. You sound like Ignotus. If you are not, I apologize.
Ignotus, you have attacked Fr. time and again through implication and condescending remarks. Ask the opinion of others on the Blog.
You mistake energy and passion for anger. I am not angry at all...I'm having a good time.
Oh, and where is the evidence for your intelligence and professional expertise. Am I missing something?
Your reactions, rather than being honest and open anger, are passive-aggressive little smuggities (the act of being smug).
Once more may I suggest that we critique ideas and comments in a positive way and avoid critiquing commenters and personalities?
Yes, Pin, your anger, which you mistake for passion, blinds you to the issues raised. When someone raises a point of fact, you make a personal attack. When someone offers an historical recollection, you fume about abortion, birth control, gay marriage, the TLM, or some other unrelated matter.
Those who cannot or will not deal with the message attack the messenger.
As a bystander, I'm getting very tired of reading these exchanges between pinanv525 and pater ignotus. OK, neither of you have behaved with perfect charity. Why don't you both try forgiving each other and drop your tedious accusations with each other so we can move on and read a blog instead of reading an ongoing feud?
F O R G I V E.
You'll get as much mercy as you show.
Tangent...
rcg
You can "move on" and read the Blog, anyway. I have no need to ask forgiveness of Ignotus because I feel no guilt. I don't care if I have offended him, in fact, I rather hope I have. LOL! I have nothing to forgive him for, as I rather appreciate his providing me and others with a fine example of the "post Vat II" Priests we have been discussing. However, if it would make you sensitive souls happy, I will not engage him again...well, maybe, if he behaves as well.
"I don't care if I have offended him, in fact, I rather hope I have. LOL!"
For a person who claims to be a Catholic and a Christian, such a statement is incomprehensible.
OMG! Can't you let it go...such self-righteous, no sense of humor, nonsense. Get a life...
A person who, at least by self-adulation, is intellectually superior to the more ordinary souls interested in an honest exchange of ideas would surely not have to resort to using multiple personae to advance his points. I’m pretty new to the blog and don’t need to know who’s who or who may be hiding behind more than one facade. Anyhow, by their fruit ye shall know them.
Remember this long-standing (40-50 years) evaluation tool for recognizing the players in these kinds of discussions: The liberals/heterodox are merely being compassionately, persuasively progressive out of interest for the common good, while the conservative/orthodox are angry, divisive folks slavishly subservient to the Magisterium.
Now that we each know our place, we can peacefully move on.
Ality, heh, heh *smirk*
It just seems right to go with tradition, the Cappa, the other stuff does not look Catholic and often borders on ridiculous. Just stick to what is in the Sacristies and closets. This way they don't have to spend money on anything new. The Church has everything it needs up in the attics. Time to dust it off and put it back in use as it has been for centuries.
Cardinal Burke is a traditionalist regarding episcopal vesture, but he errs in one respect. He should not be wearing a cappa magna that has an ermine hood/shoulder cape. Ermine was abolished by Pope Paul VI in 1969. His instructions stated, though, that the cappa may be worn but only outside the diocese of Rome.
There's a photo of Eugenio Pacelli wearing a cappa, supposedly as a cardinal. The photo dates from Germany, however, and his biretta has a ponpom on it, indicating that he was the nuncio to Bavaria at the time and not a cardinal. Papal nuncios are permitted to wear watered silk.
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