UPDATE! The Pillar has a more nuanced report on Pope Leo’s intentions which you can read it HERE! and it might explain Pope Leo’s meeting with Cardinal Roche the day after the original news went viral!
Something isn’t right, kind of fishy and kind of rotten….
There’s several things very peculiar about this!
Why would the papal nuncio say something that then went viral around the TLM world indicating that Pope Leo was going to be liberal/progressive in allowing bishops to seek permission for the TLM in their dioceses, in particular England and Wales? Are Papal Nuncios diplomats who say what they mean and are always diplomatic in what they say?
Why would Pope Leo meet with Cardinal Roche on the day after the Papal Nuncio made it sound like there was some kind of liberalizing of the permissions for the TLM? Was Cardinal Roche, from England himself, left out of the loop and the pope had to smooth his feathers?
It’s all very fishy. Did I say it’s fishy?
Or to put it another way, there’s something rotten in Denmark, no? Or is it Rome?
21 comments:
As someone who came into the Church under Benedict the XVI and (a year later) started attending the TLM, I now understand completely how the boomer / Gen X trads have felt over the past 60 years.
You've got two faced boomer / Gen X Bishops who are more interested in politics than the salvation of souls, and who can't process that we young people (very late millennial here) have rejected their liberal heresy and actually want our liturgy to be beautiful instead of guitar masses / kumbya.
Over the past four years they've done everything they can to suppress the TLM, and every time it appears that TC might be relaxed in some way, resort to a level of mendacity and mental reservation that would shame the Jesuits.
And they wonder why we don't like them........
Why does something have to be fishy?
You got what you want, rejoice and be glad!
Newsflashes are often released in this way. The issue mainly impacts the US and the USCCB are meeting at the moment.
The English bishops are surprisingly laid back about the TLM - they’re laissez faire as long it’s not allowed to get out of control like has happened under Benedict.
There’s a right way and a wrong way to get what you want, that’s the message here to the US bishops - you never once heard disloyalty from our lot!
It could simply mean that Pope Leo won’t proactively abrogate TC but will be very lenient in granting requests, which TC allows, IIRC.
Exactly and he’s letting that be known indirectly ie get your requests in now lol!
There are those in radtrad land who have insisted that Pope Leo XIV's "generosity" in question is a ploy to quiet "traditionalists."
Example: From: Novus Ordo Watch:
"Smart fellow, that Mr. Prevost. He will keep the trads in his church quiet by generously passing out permission slips for the TLM."
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That is absurd as the above has portrayed holy Pope Leo XIV as a schemer.
In addition, various trads will not end their war against God and His Church. Michael Matt, for example, has made that clear via his column yesterday in The Remnant.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/8006-the-latin-mass
Michael Matt has made it clear that "traditionalists" do not harbor illusions in regard to Pope Leo XIV. In turn, Michael Matt has made it clear that "traditionalists" will not hesitate to trample Pope Leo XIV God-given authority to teach, govern, and sanctify God's children.
Excerpts:
"So, is the war over? Don’t be silly! Is Pope Leo a traditionalist? Don’t be silly! No, Pope Leo is no traditionalist."
"Yes, Pope Leo was formed in the Novus Ordo, and so it is going to be more difficult for him to see the perils that he now faces."
"We need not be constantly fixated on the Pope, whose words and acts on a daily basis are fallible. For us, the pivotable point is Jesus Christ..."
"Whatever Pope Leo turns out to be, we can live out our Catholic Faith...So, what do we do if a pope preaches errors and commit scandals through his connivence with error and immoral events?"
"We do what traditionalists have always done — we reject it first in our mind and heart, and then publicly, always maintaining respect for the august office of the papacy."
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"Traditionalists" will not hesitate to trample Pope Leo XIV's God-given authority over us, according to Michael Matt.
Pope Leo XIV is not Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, Jesus Christ has made it clear that he speaks to us via Pope Leo XIV, as well as bishops in communion with His Holiness.
Michael Matt has made clear the following:
Despite any generosity that Pope Leo XIV may display in regard to TLM related matters, Trad Inc.'s war against His Holiness is far from over.
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Pope Leo XIV, via his address last month to the Knights of Columbus, proclaimed "two of the principal tenets of our faith: the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and the Pope as the Successor of Peter who unites and guides the Church."
I reject the war that "traditionalists"...liberals...anybody...wages against Pope Leo XIV.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
In their hearts, as the Church continues to shrink, these bitter old loser bishops know the Novus Bogus, like them, are on borrowed time. The Vetus Ordo will be the last rite standing, Deo Gratias!
I think that’s probably what Leo is doing ie kicking the can down the line to watch and see how the land lies later .
I think what you papal nuncio originally said he got from the Pope’s mouth but he shouldn’t have revealed it yet until the pope consulted with Cardinal Roche, at least out of respect for the Cardinal’s liturgical role in all of this, and also Pope Leo said in his CRUX interview that he want to consult, perhaps in a synodal way, about the TLM. I happen to think he may consult with the cardinals in January in their extraordinary consistory about it. At any rate, your papal nuncio spoke out of turn, which is unfortunate for a diplomat, no?
If Pierre said it it’s coz he was told to!
Is your papal nuncio “Pierre”????
Our “catholic” bishops: follow the money to see where their real concerns lie:
https://x.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/1989308012327059898?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1989308012327059898%7Ctwgr%5Ef388c9169c2207277ba1d8d938d47027efe998a6%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Finstapundit.com%2F756707%2F
TJM:
The author of the X post you linked ends by saying “We all know what’s happening here.” Yes, indeed we do—a disgusting and despicable slur and innuendo against the USCCB (and by extension Pope Leo) to distract from the Trump Administration’s cruel and unhuman treatment of the immigrant population.
For some FACTS on the (inadequate) federal funds given and used for perfectly LEGAL refugee resettlement and Vance’s LIES that they are used to further ILLEGAL immigration, see:
https://www.osvnews.com/vance-spars-with-us-bishops-over-their-pushback-on-trumps-immigration-policy/
And for the text of the USCCB’s forceful, almost completely unanimous and fully justified Special Message this week (which our pastor read out to us at the end of Mass this evening), see:
https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/us-bishops-issue-special-message-immigration-plenary-assembly-baltimore
I hope Father McDonald highlights this Special Message in a separate post.
Mark J.
Mark,
The USCCB is often called the Democratic Party at prayer. Their support for illegal aliens in contrast to the needs of American citizens is appalling. Do you like them, stubbornly avoid the murders, rapes, thefts, and appalling traffic accidents they commit? Do you and they not care the unfair financial burden they place on border town schools, hospitals,and social welfare agencies? I think the answer is to flying about 100,000 over to Vatican City and flood the place so they can experience the "joy and love."
I am surprised you are not moving to a State that reflects your world view, California, Illinois or New York. Why not experience the joy of high taxes, crime, and social chaos? You know, put your money where your mouth is?
TJM:
I imagine the USCCB is called the Democratic Party at prayer whenever they take a moral position that does not align with right-wing MAGA groupthink. Were they the Democratic Party at prayer when they called repeatedly and consistently for the overturning of Roe v. Wade and when they pronounce on the abortion issue? Or when, also this past week, when they instructed Catholic hospitals not to facilitate sex change surgeries? No, I thought not.
Your inability or refusal to distinguish between different groups of undocumented immigrants is itself appalling. More broadly let me ask you this: If the non-criminal undocumented immigrants were all white Caucasians, would you still be in favor of mass deportation? If not, your motivations are clearly racist.
And what about Trump’s campaign promise to do something to address the plight of the DACA recipients. Crickets, I believe.
As for my moving, I have stated my reasons, which have to do with family. So, shut it!
Mark J.
P.S. And I notice you do what you so often do—Just like your Great leader. To distract, you change the subject, which was the disgusting and false slur in the X post you linked and Vance’s lies. What do you have to say about those matters? We await your answer with interest.
TJM:
I know you will reject the source, even though the author is a former mainstream Republican, Jennifer Rubin, but please address the content.
Here is her column from last Monday.
https://substack.com/home/post/p-178437881
Quite apart from Trump’s utter disregard of the Rule of Law (the phrase seems to equate in his lexicon to “Trump’s Law” or, better yet, “Trump’s Will”), if the conditions at the Chicago detention center she describes are accurate, the word appalling is too mild and as the column explains, the federal judiciary has clearly had enough of such thuggery. Thus:
“Trump’s federal immigration goons, who were supposed to deport the worst of the worst criminals, have become rogue bullies. Increasingly, federal judges have proven that they’ve had enough of lawless enforcement and illegal detention of both immigrants and, in some cases, U.S. citizens. . . .
Federal personnel charged with detaining suspected immigration law violators did not fare any better in the courtroom of Judge Robert Gettleman, who heard compelling testimony last week about mistreatment, disreputable conditions, and chaos at the Broadview processing facility, which was never intended to be used to house detainees for an extended time.
Gettleman described treatment of detainees at the facility as “unnecessarily cruel.” He heard horrific first-hand accounts of vile conditions and denial of access to counsel for detainees. “Sleeping shoulder to shoulder next to filthy toilets that are overflowing, surrounded by human waste,” the judge said. “It’s just unacceptable.”
Capitol News Illinois reported that immigrants testified “they were pressured to sign voluntary deportation forms in order to escape the facility’s overcrowded and filthy conditions.” Making conditions unbearable to force self-deportation appears to be a feature, not a bug of Trump immigration enforcement.
Gettleman dressed down the government:
He issued a TRO to force the facility to provide such basic items as clean bedding, potable water, and (every other day) showers.”
And you wonder why the USCCB and Pope Leo object?
Rubin implies that the Trump Administration is fascist. I will not necessarily go so far. However, the following account of fascism, its elements, and stages, certainly give me pause and, I hope, other readers pause as well (and remember that, before the election, Trump 1.0’s Chief of Staff John Kelly clearly called Trump a fascist—an impression he has done little to dispel when one looks at the totality of his actions):
https://education.cfr.org/learn/learning-journey/what-does-fascism-really-mean/what-is-fascism
Mark J.
"Permission" to have what is rightfully ours is utter B.S..
Benedict made it very clear that what was once held as holy cannot all of a sudden be harmful. Yet Francis decided that this sort of continuity could not be tolerated, as it threatened his vision of a "new Church". One of these men was wrong. It doesn't take a genius to figure out which one.
The Church of England used to be called the Conservative Party at prayer here!
It cannot wholey be held harmful but it can in part eg the old Good Friday prayer for the Jews!
There is NOTHING harmful about the ancient tradition of praying for the "perfidious Jews"--unless one is some sort of pansy-ass liberal, looking under every rock for evidence of "anti-semitism". Such pearl-clutching is akin to calling one a racist, merely because he observes the disproportionately high rate of crimes committed by black people. It doesn't fly.
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