Over at The National Catholic Register, Msgr. Charles Pope has recommendations about restoring orthodox belief to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I agree with most of his insights especially his last paragraph:
It’s going to be a long journey. I realize that some who read this will say, “Why don’t we just admit that the Mass of 1970 was a failure and put everything back the way it was — now!” But that just isn’t realistic. The ordinary form is here to stay; more than 90% of Catholics attend Mass in the ordinary form. Parishes are diverse, and people have differing sensibilities. Within this complex reality, it is prudent to reintroduce things gradually and by way of offering more options. It is an important step toward loosening the grip of the liturgical police and permitting greater freedom to pastors and parishes under the guidance of their bishops who, I pray, will see wisdom in this gentle way forward.
My comments: I am a supporter of the reform of the reform in continuity with our Tradition of the Mass and other sacraments. I am not in favor of the exclusive return to the Extraordinary Form because I am in favor of ecumenical councils properly implemented. That's Catholic, folks. Pope Benedict in his Christmas Address to the Roman Curia paved the path to this reform in continuity which one day, I pray, I hope and I believe, will take place but not until the two popes and their generation pass away. I hate to be blunt but that is what it is going to take. And yes, I know, I am a part of that generation who needs to pass away.
In my previous parish I moved slowly implementing the EF Mass at a regularly scheduled Mass time and making the Mass where the EF was celebrated once a month ad orientem in the Ordinary Form and with Holy Communion distributed at the Altar Railing to kneeling communicants. Keep in mind we had four Sunday Masses at the time, 7:45 AM, 9:30 AM, 12:10 PM (ad orientem and once a month EF Mass) and 5 PM. We also had a 4:30 PM Saturday Vigil Mass.
I have to say that most of the laity attending the 12:10 PM Mass more than likely thought that the EF Mass was no different than the OF Mass except that we used Latin for the entire Mass!
In my new parish, its new church seating almost 1,200 we only need two Sunday morning Masses at 8:00 AM and 10:30 AM with a Saturday Vigil at 5 PM. I have slowly brought back some tradition to these Masses with the chanting of the propers at all Masses and the Mass itself chanted as well as incense at the 10:30 AM Mass which I see as the principle Mass of the parish.
But ad orientem and kneeling for Holy Communion would be most difficult in the current design of this neo-modern facility and with an already $5 million debt amounting to a $38,000 a month payment toward the debt, I don't foresee an altar railing anytime down the road or within my pastorate barring a mega donation to pay off the debt or someone winning the Billion dollar lottery and giving 10% to the parish!
I do have a weekly EF Low Mass each Tuesday at 6 PM in our old church which is now our chapel. It has an altar railing and an OF portable altar easily removed for the EF Mass on the high altar where the tabernacle is.
Another thing that I agree with in Msgr. Pope's article is this assessment of things:
Yet, these laudable efforts at education and the reintroduction of Eucharistic adoration seem to have come up short — the number of Catholics correctly understanding and believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist has fallen even further.
I would argue that the poor results are mostly due to the fact that the Mass, as it has been celebrated since the early 1970s, has remained largely and stubbornly resistant to changes aimed at restoring reverence. It has been a combination of the force of many bad habits and an entrenched liturgical establishment that has resisted anything that seemed to be a “step backward” (e.g., kneeling to receive Holy Communion), even as an option. Stories such as this one, “Priest Removed From Parish for Traditional Style of Worship,” still occur too frequently; they show that even modest proposals for reintroducing tradition are often greeted with overly vehement resistance by some of the very people who claim to celebrate “diversity.”
My final comments: Two of the most influential archbishops in the country, one already a cardinal and another so-to-be a cardinal are both 1970's priests who obtained degrees in "Liturgy" during the worst time in the history of the Church to get such degrees. You will not hear from them any denigration of the the Ordinary Form celebrated in the most ordinary way in about 99% of parishes in our country, because to critique the Ordinary Form as it is celebrated would mean that the degrees they obtained in the 1970's in Liturgy are worthless and a waste of their valuable academic time! So don't expect reform of the reform from them as it calls into question everything they have striven to do to the Liturgy for decades. Humility is not their strong suit, hubris is, which is the case with most liturgists unfortunately!
Thus other solutions to the loss of Catholic Faith in what Jesus teaches about the Bread of Life are put forward, like Adoration and proper catechesis. But they never will put forward what is the true solution to the malaise, what Pope Benedict explicitly asked and modeled, renewal in continuity!
49 comments:
I moved to my FSSP parish for two reasons: their music and their open affirmation of the Presence. The Latin was the icing on that cake.
70% of Catholics lost the faith, but you can’t go back because 90% of them prefer the Novus Ordo. Does not compute.
Quite frankly, most bishops and priests in their 60s or 70s don't give a tinker's damn about the Faithful. It is all about their comfort zone so they will continue to say Mass the way to do and the Church will continue to shed members.
There are exceptions, like Father McDonald, who recognize there is a serious problem with the way Mass is celebrated and has sought solutions, including celebrating the EF. One can say the OF is here to stay, but for whom? WHen I attend the EF it is largely younger people, people who still believe and care about the Faith. OF parishes will continue to fold and some will be taken over by the EF community.
In retrospect, it was a lost opportunity that the EF was not allowed to remain in parish life alongside the OF. The losses may have been contained. I for one would have tried the OF and then returned to the more spiritually enriching EF.
There are many fine statements from Father McDonald and Monsignor Pope.
The following, however, is always overlooked when folks discuss the Novus Ordo/Vatican II "debacle":
Vatican II and the Novus Ordo have, in tremendous fashion, renewed the Church throughout Africa and Asia.
Novus Ordo parishes in those parts of the world are packed with worshipers. Seminaries there are packed with holy men. Converts abound.
Far from a debacle, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are tremendous holy successes throughout Africa and Asia.
"Vatican II/Novus Ordo is a debacle" folks always overlook the above.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"But that just isn’t realistic. The ordinary form is here to stay; more than 90% of Catholics attend Mass in the ordinary form."
I find that ironic, considering that in 1962 98% of Catholics of the Latin Rite attended the Mass of St Gregory (others the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, etc), and that all changed by 1970 to 100% Novus Ordo. Was it unrealistic then? Yes it was, but the spirit of Vatican 2 bullies got their way, confusing and alienating Catholics everywhere through the "perfect" lex orandi of Bugnini and other Modernists. How can anyone blame the droves of Catholics fleeing the Church then when their faith had been pulled from under them by the demonic spirit of Vatican 2? And can anyone blame Catholics leaving the Church today with that same lex orandi which elevates man above God and His Glory?
Mr Thomas:
For your information, Africa is 48% Muslim, and growing and growing...
As for Christianity, it is, like in South America, the Protestants that are really growing. As for Catholics, it is eastern rite Catholicism that is really growing. As for the Roman, well it is growing a bit with the increase in population. Oh yes, the SSPX is really growing too.
Who are those two "influential archbishops"? And even if you had the money for an altar rail, would the permission of the bishop be required first to alter the sanctuary? I don't know him (the bishop), but given he previously pastored a modern-looking church in Clayton County (suburban Atlanta) years ago, I don't see him wanting to allow your parish to do so.
Victor beat me to it. Is it any less likely that we can return the relatively small number of Catholics to a proper Liturgy than that 60 years ago we could force five times as many to abandon 1600 years of progress? And who would not make the journey back? Right wing loons like me and off-axis types like Mark T would stay. We would be abandoned by insurgents? Is that a bad thing?? I also reject that the NO is responsible for the growth of Christianity in Africa et al. The Old Rite had cultural variations throughout the world to accommodate local traditions. But they were variations on the central theme and message reveal by Christ. The Amazonian Synod is the natural child of Vatican II and validates Martin Luther.
I too liked Monsignor Pope's comments. The only dissent I would offer is that he could have been much clearer in explaining that no priest needs any permission to offer Holy Mass ad orientem. Of course, having encouragement from the bishop is great; but permission is not needed. Indeed, I am highly dubious that a bishop can forbid it; although I recognize the problems in defying such a prohibition.
"Vatican II and the Novus Ordo have, in tremendous fashion, renewed the Church throughout Africa and Asia.
"Far from a debacle, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo are tremendous holy successes throughout Africa and Asia."
Examples of the renewal of the Church in Africa since Vatican II.
1. Cameroon bishops warn that more and more Catholics are joining masons and returning to witchcraft practices.
"At the moment, in some parishes of our dioceses, in parish councils and even in some diocesan organizations, there are more and more people in positions of responsibility, people belonging to Freemasonry, the Rosicrucians, or who are into sorcery…"
"One traditional missionary in Africa recently spoke to LifeSite about his worry that the Amazonian Synod will cut the legs out from under Catholic priests in promoting “traditional” practices that ever larger numbers of Africans are returning to…"
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/african-bishops-blast-freemasonry-sorcery-in-new-pastoral-letter
2. Huge numbers of Nigerian Diocese defy pope regarding appointment of bishop.
"The order of Pope Francis after a June 8 meeting at the Vatican with a delegation from the Ahiara Diocese has been defied again as 3,000 faithful of the Diocese of the Catholic Church protest the appointment of Bishop Peter Okpaleke."
https://www.premiumtimesng.com
3. Ugandan Catholics form new church.
"Twenty renegade Catholic priests who are either married or want to marry have broken from the mainstream Roman Catholic church in Uganda and formed a new church where celibacy is not required."
https://www.ncronline.org
4. Zambian bishop Emmanuel Milingo takes a wife and forms new church with Catholic followers. Other priests follow suit. Up to 300,000 Catholics join.
https://www.ncronline.org
5. Catholics kill fellow Catholics in Rwandan civil war. Nuns join in the slaughter.
https://en.wikipedia.org
"Two Rwandan nuns have received long prison sentences in Belgium for their part in the 1994 genocide.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/06/08/rwanda.verdict.02/index.html
6. Ivory Coast missionary warns of many Catholics turning to cult-like practices.
"However, in the course of time, their promulgation of prosperity and miracles has diverted many Catholics from the essence of their faith. In certain new communities, the fundamentals of Catholic doctrine are being undermined. Through methods of evangelization similar to those of cults, these prayer groups turn away from Christ, the one true path, and lose themselves in a cult of personality."
https://sma.ie
7. Catholic hospitals in Rwanda point people to contraceptive centers.
“The way we see it, people are responsible for their own health and their own faith,” says Prince-Bosco Kanani, the director of Rwanda Catholic Health Services. “Our spiritual mandate is to let people choose.” Many Rwandan women have chosen modern birth control.
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2019/0102/How-Rwanda-s-Catholic-clinics-struck-a-contraception-compromise
8. Catholic priest forms cult, murders hundreds of followers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk
9. Catholics turning to polygamy in Kenya, bishops warn.
https://dailycaller.com
10. Kenyan Catholic bishop forms breakaway church, takes a wife. Many Kenyan priests have "secret families."
"When he returned to preach in Kenya, Peter Njogu was shocked when fellow priests told him that many of them had broken that vow, marrying and having children. In hushed tones, they spoke of their “secret families,” kept hidden in distant homes. The thought of doing so pained him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com
Please note that, while it may be true that over 90% of Catholic attend Mass in the Ordinary Form, this figure is not a fair indicator of their choice of liturgy.
There are a significant number of Catholics, like myself, who simply don't live in a location where the Extraordinary Form is easily accessible. In my case, it's at least two hour's drive away, each way, and I teach a Confirmation class at my parish. We haven't had a priest with the knowledge of will to offer the EF. Every few months, I can make the drive to Savannah or Jacksonville, FL for an EF Mass.
If it were available in my home parish, I would attend the EF whenever it was offered and would be willing to serve and train altar servers as well as set up for the Mass, etc.
There are, I believe, even more Catholics who are not aware of the EF option and don't know what it is. If they were fully informed on this subject, they might prefer the EF.
We haven't had a priest with the knowledge OR will to offer the EF, that is!
In the wake of the Falklands conflict (1982) there was an interview with the Catholic priest on the islands who had been a missionary in Africa. He recalled how people of different tribes and with different languages could come together and sing the Mass Ordinary in Latin. The famous Missa Luba uses traditional Congolese music to set the Latin text.
As DJR illustrates, the European presence in sub-Saharan Africa lasted a mere 80 years, and Christianity did not have time to put down deep roots. Post-V2 vernacularization and excessive inculturation have made things worse.
The Church in Asia (e.g Korea and Vietnam) had a longer time to establish itself but it doesn't have a presence 'throughout Asia' as MT seems to believe.
Joseph, the Cathedral EF Mass is glorious but averages only 200 a week and a goodly number of those attending are tourists. This Mass is at 1 pm. The 10 and 11:30 are packed.
Father McDonald,
I come to that 1 pm EF Mass at the Cathedral, probably about once a quarter. I don't get to come more often because of my PRE teaching responsibilities during the school year in addition to having a daughter who works at a vet clinic before and after Mass most Sundays (somebody has to feed and medicate the animals).
I wonder how many of those who attend the 10 and 11:30 Mass have ever attended an EF Mass or even know what it actually is? Most probably think it is just a Novus Ordo Mass offered in Latin and wonder why those "strange people" want the added difficulty of Mass in an ancient dead language.
While I very much appreciate the fact that we have such a glorious EF Mass at the Cathedral, I continue to hold the private suspicion that the "powers that be" in the diocese (and the larger church, for that matter) don't think it is important that people be catechized and fully informed about their liturgical options.
Father McDonald,
As far as interest in the EF in other parts of our diocese is concerned, I am sure you are aware of the interest that was shown the last time an EF Mass was offered in Augusta and what happened in the aftermath. You can ask Dr. Maher about this.
As to Waycross, in 2008, we our pastor offered an EF Mass and we had over 160 people in attendance. Some came from Valdosta and other parts of our deanery. This was because I "got the word out" before the Mass to make sure interested people knew. Afterwards, our pastor got some serious grief from the pastor in Valdosta (and other area priests) for having offered this Mass and, most egregiously, for its having been publicized beforehand. He told me all about this. He did the Mass one more time after having me promise that I wouldn't do any advance publicity. The attendance was much lower the second time. This forms part of the basis for my opinion.
Father McDonald,
I am not disagreeing about what is being said about making the Novus Ordo better--that would be great and I do think that is part of the answer in the current situation. I just think that the EF should be given a fair shake (parity with the NO) and that it should be a priority to make it more available in more places and to educate people about these things. Having the EF more available is part of what it takes to make people, and priests, want a better Novus Ordo.
Victor, the Western Church is also booming throughout Africa and Asia.
The quote below is from the following news article that otherwise has focused upon the many African priests who serve in the United States:
https://qz.com/africa/1664208/catholic-church-in-america-needs-african-priests-for-its-future/
By Lekan Oguntoyinbo, July 11, 2019
-- African priests are now the future of the Catholic Church in the United States
Bob Bonnott, executive director of the Association of US Catholic priests and a priest for 52 years, says:
"The Catholic faith in Africa is exploding and the seminaries are filled."
============================================================================
As Emeritus Benedict XVI/Cardinal Ratzinger has insisted for years, where implemented, the authentic Vatican II, as well as authentic liturgical reform of Pope Saint Paul VI, have blessed the Church.
That is true, in particular, in regard to Pope Saint Paul VI's liturgical reform throughout Africa and Asia.
From Vatican II/implementation of the Novus Ordo to date, the Faith has exploded throughout Africa and Asia.
Packed Masses...seminaries packed with holy men...numerous converts to the True Church.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Victor said..."Mr Thomas: For your information, Africa is 48% Muslim, and growing and growing..."
Victor, the Church in Africa is also growing, and growing. The Church there is booming in holy fashion.
=====================================================================================
Victor said..."As for Christianity, it is, like in South America, the Protestants that are really growing."
Victor, in Africa, the Church is exploding in holy fashion...packed churches and seminaries.
https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1251
In Africa, a Catholic explosion!
By Phil Lawler
===========================================================================
From Crux:
https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/04/06/vatican-statistics-confirm-catholic-future-africa/
-- Vatican statistics confirm the Catholic future is in Africa
==============================================================================
Newsweek
JESUS HAS FOUND A HOME HERE: THE RISE OF CATHOLICISM IN AFRICA
https://www.newsweek.com/jesus-has-found-home-here-rise-catholicism-africa-399114
====================================================================================
Deo gratias, Victor, the Faith is exploding n holy fashion throughout Africa and Asia.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Victor, here is an additional news article in regard to the massive growth of the Church in Africa:
Wall Street Journal:
By Heidi Vogt in Kampala, Uganda, and Francis X. Rocca in Vatican City
https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-africa-a-booming-catholic-church-and-growing-pains-to-greet-pope-francis-1448403293
"While Islam is outpacing Catholicism globally, in Africa, the number of Catholics is growing faster than the Muslim population, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity."
"The Catholic church is also growing at a faster rate in Africa than other Christian denominations."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
My God, can't Mark Thomas make a point without repetitive prolixity and a plethora of hyperlinks which you can't click on even if you had the inclination to do so?
He also needs to consult a dictionary to ascertain the meaning of 'throughout', which is hyperbole when applied to Africa and arrant nonsense when applied to Asia.
He still hasn't amended his statistic that only one Catholic in a million assists at the traditional Roman Rite.
He's beyond a joke.
I don't think it's entirely relevant to compare the numbers attending morning Masses in the OF to those attending an afternoon Mass in the EF in just one location. Given the extremely awkward time, a congregation of 200-300 is very encouraging.
When I was in my 20s (1970s) the Tridentine Mass was difficult to find, but there were quite a few churches (especially in London) which kept their musical tradition going by celebrating the Novus Ordo in Latin. I remember it being very difficult to find the Latin text of the new Mass; not until 1977 did the CTS produce in booklet form a Latin-English version of the Ordinary, and as far as the Proper was concerned, we had to wait for the Solesmes Gregorian Missal of 1990.
Not all young people in those days were attracted to informal guitar Masses. I seem to remember that those most in favour of the new English Mass were middle-aged women. The situation now is different. Reverent celebration, good music, and (yes) Latin attracts young people. I have only to look round the congregation at the Oxford Oratory to confirm this.
On Thursday, the Feast of the Assumption, the principal Mass (Solemn Latin OF) was in the evening. There was, as is usual, a Low EF Mass at 12:15 which is convenient for those attending during their lunch break. How many attending were 'EF people' who were avoiding the OF on principle? Some, perhaps. But I suspect they were not the majority. I don't like talk of 'EF parishes' and 'Novus Ordo parishes'. It presumes a dichotomy which should not exist.
Father McDonald,
If the 10 and the 11:30 were an EF, they would be packed too. The 1 pm time is designed to suppress attendance. People tend to go to the Mass time which is most convenient for them. I recall in the late 1960s that my parish converted the most highly attended Mass to a guitar Mass. This was the "evidence" the pastor needed to conclude that "everyone" loved the guitar Mass, which was a false conclusion. Many of my friends who had always attended that Mass prior to it being converted to the guitar Mass held their nose and continued to attend that Mass because the time was most convenient time for them.
Father McDonald,
Regarding the effect of the EF in other parts of our diocese:
Back in the early 90's, I was in law school, rooming with a fellow student from near Cordele who was already in the process of joining the Catholic Church. We became very good friends, but, in our second year, we transferred to different schools. I went to University of Arkansas in Little Rock and it was there, under Bishop Andrew McDonald with the FSSP, that I was first exposed to, and learned about, what we now call the EF Mass (I have faint memories of it as a very small child). When my friend came to visit me in Little Rock, he had already been received into the Church and I took him to the Latin Mass. He went with me a couple of times and was hooked.
Since that time, we both married and have raised families. We both exposed our children to the EF Mass whenever possible. His oldest boy, now 18, is my God son.
Earlier this summer, my God son texted me (out of the blue--I had not seen him for a long time) and was asking me questions about the EF Mass. I answered his questions and, next thing I knew, he had been to an EF Mass in Tallahassee. He wanted to learn to serve the EF Mass. He then texted me and wanted to meet me and come to the Savannah Latin Mass. We are very short on ushers at St. Joseph in Waycross and I am scheduled almost every week. Still, two or three weeks ago, I ushered at the 9 am English Mass in Waycross and had my God son meet me right after that Mass and we traveled together, just the two of us, to Savannah.
The Benedictine priest, Fr. John Paul, was the celebrant that week and we both met him after Mass. My God son loved the whole experience and we had an excellent day together, catching up and discussing the state of the Church and liturgy at lunch after Mass.
He has since left for college in Wisconsin and, last week, sent me pictures he took when he visited St. John Cantius in Chicago. He told me he is considering the priesthood. I gave you this long background because I wanted you to see the role the EF Mass has had in the upbringing and possible vocation of this fine young man who needs your prayers. I told him at the end of that Sunday that he had made my day!
Fr. McDonald,
I forgot to mention, my God Son is from Valdosta.
Hey MT,
Since the Church is “flourishing” in Africa and Asia you should consider moving to one of these continents to help the Church there with the overflow of Latin Rite Christians!
JJ @ 2:45, what a beautiful story! Thanks for sharing and I will certainly be praying for that young man in his discernment process. Keep us updated, OK?
"Explosion" of Catholicism in Asia since Vatican II.
1. "Hindu Mass" (approved by Indian bishops) sparks altercation.
http://www.canisiusbooks.com/articles/hindu_mass.htm
2. Japanese Catholics "indifferent" to the faith.
"The Japanese responses to the wider inquiries of the questionnaire are blunt and to the point. In response to a question on how Japanese Catholics accept the church's teachings prohibiting artificial contraception, for example, the Japanese state: 'Contemporary Catholics are either indifferent to or unaware of the teaching of the Church. Most Catholics in Japan have not heard of Humanae vitae,' the Japanese state, referring to Pope Paul VI's encyclical letter banning the practice. 'If they have, they probably do not make it an important part of their lives. Social and cultural values as well as financial considerations are more important.'"
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/japanese-bishops-vatican-mindset-doesnt-fit-asian-church
3. Iraqi Catholics on the point of disappearing in Asia.
"In 2003, before the US invasion of Iraq, there were an estimated 1.2 million Christians living there. Today, that number is less than 250,000 — an eighty percent drop in less than two decades. If this trend continues, a religious minority that has been in Iraq for centuries will be gone entirely."
https://www.undispatch.com/the-persecution-of-christians-in-iraq
4. Indian priests fight against cardinal.
Jun 7, 2019 - A group of priests accused Alencherry and two priests of selling land.
cruxnow.com
5. Millions of Catholics in China join the Patriotic Association (communist, pro-abortion "church").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Patriotic_Catholic_Association
6. Self-styled Chinese bishop plans to ordain bishops without Vatican go-ahead.
Plan by Shanghai cleric raises fears of more persecution for the underground community.
http://india.ucanews.com/news/self-styled-chinese-bishop-plans-to-ordain-bishops-without-vatican-go-ahead/41101/daily
Bee here:
Joseph Johnson at August 18, 2019 at 2:45 PM said regarding his God son: "He has since left for college in Wisconsin and, last week, sent me pictures he took when he visited St. John Cantius in Chicago. He told me he is considering the priesthood."
The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (who do the TLM I think exclusively) have 3 locations in Wisconsin: St. Patrick's in Green Bay, St. Stanislaus in Milwaukee, and St. Mary's in Wausau. Depending on where your God son is going to school, he might be able to attend at one of these churches.
I had the blessing of spending last week in Wausau attending a summer seminar given by the St. Albert the Great Center for Scholastic Studies. It was on St. Thomas Aquinas' commentary on St. Paul's Letter to the Galatians. The seminar was excellent.) It was held at St. Mary's Oratory in Wausau, and we had the wonderful privilege of attending the EF Mass daily, and a Latin High Mass for the Feast of the Assumption. The church was packed. And I would say over 70% of the people were under the age of 40.
But I always wonder if the high attendance at EF Masses is only because they are drawing people from parishes offering only OF Masses.
But then again, I wonder if over time new people or fallen away Catholics would come back if the EF was offered nearby at a time in the morning, say between 8:00 and 11:00 am.
God bless.
Bee
Bee,
Most bishops in the US are afraid of choice - if the EF were offered at customary times for Sunday morning Mass, the laity might like the EF and the bishops can’t have that!
DJR,
Our resident empty suit will ignore your inconvenient facts
JDJ,
We are maintaining contact and I will keep you posted as to any further developments. Thanks for the kind comments and for your prayers!
Bee,
He will be at Ripon College and is well-versed on where to find the EF! He knows about Wausau, we talked about that.
This is the only serious criticism I have of our host. He often cites the low attendance at EF Masses he celebrates but doesn’t acknowledge the time of day is an obstacle to many. The answer to my complaint might be that if traditional minded Catholics are so dedicated then the time of day should not matter. The reply is that the traditional minded will also fast the entire day before communion, a practical challenge for the very young, old, and infirm. But why make it more difficult for lovers of Latin Mass? If the two forms are equal then why not make them equally accessible?
I think that if a Latin Mass was available only twice a month on the first and third Sunday the attendance would not only be better but that after a period of complaining interest would increase and at least tolerance if not support would also rise.
What could be done without much effort and additional spending is to ditch extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. Their widespread use in American churches is against any church regulation on the matter. How many times I have been participating in weekday Mass and when communion time approached 4 out 10 mass participants stood up and went to distribute Holy Communion...
More info on the holy success of the booming Church throughout Asia.
1. More Catholic priests joining the pro-abortion communist "church" in China.
In Beijing, the patriotic formation of Mindong priests. "Is this still the Catholic Church?" by Deng Wenlong
"Members of the Party and the United Front, university professors and patriotic bishops have transformed formerly 'underground' priests into perfect 'state officials.' A report by the Patriotic Association."
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/In-Beijing,-the-patriotic-formation-of-Mindong-priests.-Is-this-still-the-Catholic-Church-47750.html
2. Catholic Church being suffocated in China.
A document released by the Fujian authorities requires parish priests and religious personnel to ban minors from church and education; to refuse relations with foreign Catholics; to curb any momentum of evangelization. Meanwhile, the Global Times celebrates the Vatican Museums Exhibition and some lectures on Pope Francis and friendship between China and the Vatican. For Beijing, agreements with the Holy See go hand in hand with the suffocation of the Church."
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Suffocating-the-Chinese-Church-with-'independence',-while-applauding-the-China-Vatican-agreement-47373.html
3. Koran being read at Mass in India, bishop approves of calling Christ "Isa," precursor to Muhammad
https://ephesians511blog.com/2019/06/16/bishop-thomas-dabre-approves-jesus-being-called-isa-the-muslim-prophet-who-preceded-muhammad/
Veneration of Hindu deities by priests in India.
https://ephesians511blog.com/2017/04/03/vasai-priest-fr-thomas-dsouza-worships-ganesha-2/
It's not just America. Westminster Cathedral arguably has the finest choir (men and boys) in England (and by extension, the world). It is probably unique in that Latin Vespers are sung every day. The last time I attended a weekday Mass there (not a sung Mass, but said in Latin), I noticed the following. In addition to the celebrant there was an adult server and an adult reader (both male). However, there were two female EMHC who were not needed, since the chalice was not offered and most of the communicants (who were not that numerous) preferred to receive from the priest. I felt a bit sorry for them, standing on either side of the priest in their gold sashes and effectively being ignored.
According to Redemptionis Sacramentum, this is a manifest abuse. But, hey-ho, it's 'jobs for the girls'.
The problem we have now is that the current liturgical malaise came about because popes at least since Pius IX have regarded themselves as supreme legislators with regard to liturgy and the last half of the 19th and the first half of the 20th century saw ever more centralization. Paul VI even went so far as to promulgate a radically new rite of Mass and alter virtually every other aspect of Catholic worship and practice.
The result was a decisive rupture, and attempts to restore the local autonomy which had been a feature of the Roman Rite's organic development would merely lead to a repetition of the anarchy which accompanied the dismantling of the Roman Rite in the 1960s.
So, we're in a hell of a mess. Looking to Rome to sort it out ignores the fact that Rome was responsible for the mess in the first place.
John Nolan,
I have great confidence that our younger priests will restore sanity. My pastor at my little country church is around 30 years. Raised by a devout Catholic family in the state of Ohio. Obviously he has no direct knowledge of the liturgical wars of the 1960s and 1970s. Unlike the 60 something pastor who wore bizarre looking chasubles, employed altar girls, and the altar looked like a cheap department store affair, the young priest has brought considerable dignity back to even the OF. Why you might ask? Well for one, after he was ordained he went to Chicago to St. John Cantius and received training in celebrating the EF.
Since his arrival, the altar girls have disappeared, and the young men serving at the altar have been whipped into shape. He recreated the altar with beautiful antependiums and the Benedictine arrangement. Voila, the sanctuary looks like a Catholic one again. He dresses the chalice for Mass and he wears a cassock under his vestments and either wears beautiful Gothic or Roman style vestments for Mass with the mantiple! On Sundays and major feasts he only uses the Roman Canon and he utilizes the more traditional form of the introductory rites. He celebrates the EF once a month. His sermons are based on Catholic theology rather than New Age Movement nonsense or political propaganda.
Guess what has happened? collections have gone up and the congregation is growing again. From my personal observation, the flock is looking younger too. One thing which has helped him is his winning personality, his unfailing politeness and kindness to all. He is also fortunate to have a supportive bishop. I don't think our young pastor is an anomaly. I witnessed this change at other parishes in the area as well. Once the double-knit dinosaur pastors move on, I think we will be pleasantly surprised at the Catholic Restoration which will come, so long as PF doesn't do something crazy (like splitting the Church in two because of his leftism)
What TJM describes at 1:02 is my aspirational dream for regular parishes. Once again, it takes familiarity with the EF to accomplish this transformation of liturgical ethos.
John Nolan said..."The problem we have now is that the current liturgical malaise came about because popes at least since Pius IX have regarded themselves as supreme legislators with regard to liturgy and the last half of the 19th and the first half of the 20th century saw ever more centralization."
Pope Venerable Pius XII, on September 22, 1955 A.D., said:
******* "Thus the liturgical movement has appeared as a sign of God’s providential dispositions for the present day, as a movement of the Holy Spirit in His Church, *******
******* ...intended to bring men closer to those mysteries of the faith and treasures of grace which derive from the active participation of the faithful in liturgical life."
"We have recalled the role which the Magisterium, the depository of the truth of Christ, exercises through the liturgy.
******* "The influence of the governing power upon it is also evident." *******
******* "For it belongs to the Popes to give recognition to rites which are in force, to introduce any new practices, to establish rules for the manner of worship." *******
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Thank you, Mark Thomas, for providing the quotations which support my argument. The best account of the Liturgical Movement is to be found in Alcuin Reid's 'The Organic Development of the Liturgy' which was reissued in 2004 with a foreword by Cardinal Ratzinger. The future pontiff wrote:
'Anyone who, like me, was moved by this perception at the time of the Liturgical Movement on the eve of the Second Vatican Council, can only stand, deeply sorrowing, before the ruins of the very things they were concerned for.'
Of course, the Liturgical Movement encompassed many different strands of opinion in divers locations. To suggest that it was inspired by the Holy Ghost is vitiated by the simple fact that not a few of its historical assumptions have been proved false by more recent scholarship, and surely the Holy Ghost cannot err.
John Nolan said..."Of course, the Liturgical Movement encompassed many different strands of opinion in divers locations. To suggest that it was inspired by the Holy Ghost is vitiated by the simple fact that not a few of its historical assumptions have been proved false by more recent scholarship, and surely the Holy Ghost cannot err."
When you are in Heaven, you can discuss the above with Pope Venerable Pius XII. He insisted that the Holy Ghost inspired the Liturgical Movement/the radical liturgical innovations that he willed upon the Roman Liturgy.
You can also discuss Pope Venerable Pius XII's declaration that each Pope has authority over the Divine Mysteries.
-- "For it belongs to the Popes to give recognition to rites which are in force, to introduce any new practices, to establish rules for the manner of worship."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
However, popes can err, and frequently do. Pius XII issued Mediator Dei in 1947. The following year he appointed Bugnini as secretary of a commission for liturgical reform which devised the new ordo for Holy Week which included many of the things Pius himself had condemned.
Paul VI's and Casaroli's Ostpolitik was misguided, and the shameful treatment of Mindszenty was much remarked on at the time. And that's before we get on to Paul's liturgical revolution which is still exerting a baleful influence.
Mark Thomas, with his penchant for cutting and pasting quotations, will have noticed (even if he chooses to ignore it) that popes are quite capable of contradicting themselves.
John Nolan said: 'Anyone who, like me, was moved by this perception at the time of the Liturgical Movement on the eve of the Second Vatican Council, can only stand, deeply sorrowing, before the ruins of the very things they were concerned for.'
Ratzinger, Feast of Faith, page 87:
"Lest there be any misunderstanding, let me add that as far as its content is concerned (apart from a few criticisms), I am very grateful for the new Missal, for the way it has enriched the treasury of prayers and prefaces, for the new eucharistic prayers and the increased number of texts for use on weekdays, etc., quite apart from the availability of the vernacular. But I do regard it as unfortunate that we have been presented with the idea of a new book rather than with that of continuity within a single liturgical history."
Pope Benedict XVI, POST-SYNODAL APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION, SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS, ON THE EUCHARIST AS THE SOURCE AND SUMMIT OF THE CHURCH'S LIFE AND MISSION:
"The Synod of Bishops was able to evaluate the reception of the renewal in the years following the Council. There were many expressions of appreciation.
"The difficulties and even the occasional abuses which were noted, it was affirmed, cannot overshadow the benefits and the validity of the liturgical renewal, whose riches are yet to be fully explored."
Pope Benedict XVI, Summorum Pontificum: "There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. "
The Liturgical Movement led to the establishment of the Mass of Saint Paul VI/Novus Ordo, which Pope Benedict XVI/Cardinal Ratzinger praised.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas
I did not say what you attribute to me regarding the betrayal of the ideals of the Liturgical Movement. Cardinal Ratzinger put it down in writing, a year before he was elected Pope.
What is the point of all your quotations, except to demonstrate that popes, like all public figures, frequently contradict themselves?
Normally one makes an assertion and uses quotations to back it up. In your case you simply throw out quotations regardless of context to prove - what? That Pius XII was more revolutionary than Paul VI with regard to liturgical change? The facts indicate otherwise. That does not, of course, exonerate him, but you must surely be aware that Benedict XVI was of the opinion that the 'crisis in the Church' was due above all to 'the disintegration of the liturgy' (preface to Gamber's book), and that he explicitly repudiated the notion that the pope could do what he liked with regard to liturgy ('Spirit of the Liturgy').
As things stand, one does not know whether you are defending Pius XII or criticizing him.
John Nolan said..."As things stand, one does not know whether you are defending Pius XII or criticizing him."
I have discussed over the years the facts in regard to his Pontificate. It is that simple.
I am convinced that he was a holy.
As to his Pontificate...
The Church, at least the Latin Church, had stagnated. Most stagnant was the Roman Liturgy.
In earnest, Pope Venerable Pius XII moved the Church from Counter Reformation/Circle-the- Wagons mode into which she had stagnated.
In major fashion, he launched the Church into modernization mode.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
'In major fashion, he launched the Church into modernization mode.' (Mark Thomas)
And we all know what that has led to.
By the way, you seem to be woefully ignorant of the true nature of what is (misleadingly) called the Counter-Reformation. I don't have the time or space to put you right, but suggest you read some history. Far from ushering in 'stagnation', the 16th century Catholic reformation tackled abuses, halted and in some areas rolled back Protestantism, and embarked on a missionary activity which took the Catholic faith to the New World.
Fifty years after the Council of Trent the Church was dynamic and flourishing. Fifty years after the Second Vatican Council she is mired in scandal and seemingly in retreat.
John Nolan said..."Fifty years after the Second Vatican Council she is mired in scandal and seemingly in retreat."
From Her beginning, the Church has dealt with one scandal after another...with in-fighting, schisms and heresies. Endless squabbles within the Church. Vicious in-infighting.
Pope Benedict XVI/Cardinal Ratzinger has spent decades extolling the holiness and success of the authentic Vatican II.
He has insisted that the authentic Council, not the fake Council that has prevailed in many places within the Church, has renewed...will renew...the Church.
On February 14, 2013 A.D., Pope Benedict XVI insisted:
"I would now like to add yet a third point: there was the Council of the Fathers – the real Council – but there was also the Council of the media. We know that this Council of the media was accessible to everyone.
"Therefore, this was the dominant one, the more effective one, and it created so many disasters, so many problems, so much suffering: seminaries closed, convents closed, banal liturgy … and the real Council had difficulty establishing itself and taking shape; the virtual Council was stronger than the real Council.
"But the real force of the Council was present and, slowly but surely, established itself more and more and became the true force which is also the true reform, the true renewal of the Church.
"It seems to me that, 50 years after the Council, we see that this virtual Council is broken, is lost, and there now appears the true Council with all its spiritual force."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
'In major fashion, he launched the Church into modernization mode.' (Mark Thomas)
John Nolan said..."And we all know what that has led to."
In Africa and Asia, that has led to the tremendous renewal of the Church. Masses each Sunday that overflow with worshipers. Seminaries packed with holy men.
In the West, dioceses/parishes are healthy where the authentic spiritual and liturgical renewals have been implemented.
Example: I am certain that Father McDonald, a loyal son of the Church, in union with the authentic teachings of his bishop, as well as the Pope, presides over a holy and healthy parish.
The True Religion thrives when presented in its fullness by solid bishops and priests — priests such as Father McDonald.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas
The fact that the Church appears to be doing well in parts of Africa and in (less significant) parts of Asia is to be applauded. Is this attributable to 'modernization'? If so, can you explain why the same 'modernization' has failed to bear fruit in the Church's European heartlands?
I would not have expected Benedict XVI, who was a peritus at Vatican II, to have explicitly criticized the Council. But his attempt to create a dichotomy between the 'real' Council and a 'virtual' Council invented by the 'media' is not convincing.
What you have (dishonestly) ignored when quoting me is the first part of my comparison: 'Fifty years after the Council of Trent the Church was dynamic and flourishing.' It certainly doesn't square with your quite erroneous view of Counter-Reformation Catholicism. Perhaps you have read some history?
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