You cannot just speak of this Ratzinger:
Without including this Ratzinger:
To speak of Ratzinger of the past without including his future until is death, is truly looking backwards and being stuck there!
Where Peter is has a good post on two people, a priest and a nun speaking to the synod on synodality about Father Joseph Ratzinger and his influence on Vatican II. You can read it by pressing the article’s title:
Fr. Ormond Rush and Sr. Gabriela on Ratzinger on Divine Revelation
Pope Benedict XVI is a marvel of intellectual and practical theology when it comes to Vatican II and Father Joseph Ratzinger grew over the years in his understanding of his input into Vatican II and his own theological development since that time all the way up to his death on New Years’s Eve, 2022.
The problem with the two presentation at the synod on Father Ratzinger is that these are stuck in 1962 and the 1962 Ratzinger. The two aging speakers are still living in the past, the 1960’s to be precise!
Pope Benedict XVI is the most post-Vatican II pope ever, bar none, even the current one. He was not stuck in the euphoria of the act of Vatican II and its immediate aftermath up until about 1978. He moved forward, along with Pope John Paul II as well as Pope Paul VI.
All three popes were able to evaluate the wheat from the chaff in the immediate post-Vatican II period of implementing Vatican II and overrule any emotional attachments to this, that or the other as it concerns s the euphoria of Vatican II.
Thus, one cannot just evaluate Father Ratzinger at the beginning of the Council up to about 1968, but all that transpired after that as Ratzinger quite capably evaluated what was happening to the Church in the post-Vatican II era and much of it good, but some of it quite awful.
Ratzinger in all his glory has to be praised not just for what he did between 1962 to 1968, but how he came to the conclusion that Vatican II must be implemented with continuity of what preceded it.
For him that meant a recovery of the “baby” that often was thrown out with the bathwater after Vatican II destroying the faith of millions in the process and making those who remained lukewarm or tepid, chasing after every novelty and fad in the Church.
Pope Benedict had cogent reasons for recovering the 1962 Roman Missal and adjunct liturgical celebrations of the Sacraments.
Not to include this by the two Synod speakers is backwards indeed and a mortal sin of manipulation!
18 comments:
Well, it would be erroneous and intellectually lilliputian to do so, Father, but that won't stop some regular commenters here from doing so.
Isn't it funny how the most rigid backwardists are the progressives and modernists who insist we must revive 1970?
Nick
Like you, Father McDonald, Pope Benedict matured in his views. The current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter belongs in a play-pen
It is similar in almost all walks of life.
How often would a man in his 60s drive a car recklesslly as aged around 20 ; or perhaps binge drink as much alcohol and or talk nonsense or chase women as much in his 60s compared to his 20s - or get a stupid tattoo etc.?
Or how much can most women change aged 25 to 75 after 50 years of "lived experience" ?
Father McDonald said..."Ratzinger in all his glory has to be praised not just for what he did between 1962 to 1968, but how he came to the conclusion that Vatican II must be implemented with continuity of what preceded it."
His predecessors also implemented the Council in continuity with the ancient Faith. Pope Francis has implemented the Council in continuity with the ancient Faith. The Church of Rome has not subjected the Faith to rupture.
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In 2005 A.D., Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged that decades prior to his Pontificate, "the "hermeneutic of reform", of renewal in the continuity" had long been in place. He did not originate that concept.
Pope Benedict XVI:
"On the one hand, there is an interpretation that I would call "a hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture"; it has frequently availed itself of the sympathies of the mass media, and also one trend of modern theology."
"On the other, there is the "hermeneutic of reform", of renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given to us."
"The hermeneutic of discontinuity is countered by the hermeneutic of reform, as it was presented first by Pope John XXIII in his Speech inaugurating the Council on 11 October 1962 and later by Pope Paul VI in his Discourse for the Council's conclusion on 7 December 1965."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald said..."You cannot just speak of this Ratzinger: Without including this Ratzinger:"
Yes.
Father McDonald, you displayed two photos of Joseph Ratzinger.
The first photo is the well-known one of Father Joseph Ratzinger dressed in a suit-and-tie, during the Council. The second photo is that of "traditional" Pope Benedict XVI.
Father McDonald, as you noted correctly, we "cannot just speak of this Ratzinger...Without including this Ratzinger:" The two photos depict the same man...the one Joseph Ratzinger who, as is the case with each person, is complex in his, or her, nature.
There is not just one, if you will, Joseph Ratzinger. That is, the progressive Joseph Ratzinger existed supposedly until 1968 A.D. Then, from 1968 A.D. until his having fallen asleep in the Lord, he had transformed supposedly into right-wing, "traditionalist" Joseph Ratzinger.
The first photo ("progressive" Joseph Ratzinger) does not change the fact that he was orthodox. The second photo ("traditionalist" Ratzinger) does not change the fact that Pope Benedict XVI was unrelenting in support of...
-- Vatican II, Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, ecumenical movement, interfaith dialogue, prayed/worshiped at Rome's Lutheran church, prayed in a synagogue, prayed in a mosque, praised Martin Luther, praised Father Teilhard de Chardin, during Assisi III, at the Basilica of Holy Mary of the Angels, permitted voodoo witch doctor Wande Abimbola to chant a prayer to the strange god Olokun.
===========================
Yes, it is impossible to separate the two photos in question as they represent the one, complex, "progressive"/"traditional" Joseph Ratzinger.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Called it.
Nick
There is at least one major problem with the myth of the supposed two Joseph Ratzingers:
That is the pre-1968 A.D. progressive Joseph Ratzinger vs. the post-1968 A.D. "mature, traditionalist" Joseph Ratzinger who had repudiated supposedly his earlier progressive views.
As trads have noted, even if the above were true, Joseph Ratzinger's pre-1968 A.D. progressive views were incorporated into the Conciliar texts. One is unable to erase said texts.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
The braindead, backwardist has arrived
Father McDonald said..."Pope Benedict XVI is the most post-Vatican II pope ever, bar none, even the current one. He was not stuck in the euphoria of the act of Vatican II and its immediate aftermath up until about 1978. He moved forward, along with Pope John Paul II as well as Pope Paul VI."
Father McDonald, I agree that the above Popes, including Francis, were not/aren't stuck in "the euphoria of the act of Vatican II."
But the above-mentioned Popes, along with Blessed John Paul I, as well as Francis, were/are, if you will, "stuck" in unrelenting praise and confidence in regard to the actual Council.
Our Vatican II Era Popes have insisted that the authentic Council has blessed the Church.
Pope Benedict XVI, for example, to the end of his earthly life, heaped praise upon Vatican II. In 2011 A.D., Pope Benedict XVI, via an address just two weeks prior to the end of his reign, declared:
"...there now appears the true Council with all its spiritual force. And it is our task...to work so that the true Council, with its power of the Holy Spirit, be accomplished and the Church be truly renewed."
Pope Saint John Paul II:
"The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council has been a gift of the Spirit to his Church. The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council was truly a prophetic message for the Church's life; it will continue to be so for many years in the third millennium which has just begun."
Our holy Popes have insisted for decades that where implemented, the authentic Vatican II has blessed and renewed the Church. Our Popes have expressed unrelenting enthusiasm for the true Vatican II. Pope Benedict XVI insisted that the complete renewal of Holy Mother Church will arrive via Vatican II.
In line with our holy Vatican II Era Popes, my enthusiasm for, as well as confidence in, Vatican II, has long remained undaunted.
Father McDonald, thank you for this thread.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Fruits of Vatican II:
Collapse in attendance at Mass
Collapse in belief in the Real Presence
Collapse of Men’s and Women’s Religious Orders
Closures of thousands of parishes
Rise in Catholics accepting abortion, gay marriage, transgenderism
I could go on but even the dullest should understand how utterly false and ludicrous the above fairytale statements of the backwardist are
Pope Benedict XVI was a holy man. He was a friend of Jesus Christ. That is what matters most in regard to Joseph Ratzinger.
Father Joseph Ratzinger, from theologian, to Archbishop/Cardinal/Pope, was a great, holy gift to the Church and world.
Father McDonald, I share and appreciate the great love and respect that you have for Joseph Ratzinger. Thank you for the many times over the years that, via your great blog, you have promoted Joseph Ratzinger. He is worthy of endless discussion.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Blowing past the obvious! LOL
Father McDonald, here is a beautiful, uplifting video from August 27th, 2022 A.D. The video is a bit more than three minutes long.
-- "Pope Francis and Benedict XVI together in public for the last time."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdy5xNqlgu4
Several then-new Cardinals accompanied His Holiness.
At the beginning of the video, Pope Francis made the Sign of the Cross on Pope Benedict XVI's forehead. I thought that that was beautiful.
It is easy to discern that Popes Francis, as well as Benedict XVI, enjoyed with each other a great friendship. Great love and respect for each other.
Among the greatest gifts that Pope Benedict XVI, a great, and holy man, has left for us is his promise, upon which he delivered, of "unconditional reverence and obedience" to the Roman Pontiff — his successor, Pope Francis.
Deo gratias for Pope Benedict XVI.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
>endless discussion.
And that's certainly what we're getting... except it's more of a monologue than a discussion.
Nick
Oh goodie, quotes...
Nick,
A tedious and delusional monologue at that. People used to get locked up for their delusions, now they post!
FrAJM’s summary sentence about taking the man as a whole and his comprehensive intellectual and spiritual development is the crux of our current situation as a Church. The same should apply to all men of any importance, certainly all Popes. Cherry picking and stacking sound bites leads to misunderstanding the man and the quote without context of the situation but also context that human’s development.
rcg:
You said a mouthful here, one that will fall on deaf ears, I'm afraid: Cherry picking and stacking sound bites leads to misunderstanding the man and the quote without context of the situation but also context that human’s development
Why I do not read the sound bites anymore. I read around it.
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