Yesterday there was this prophetic message from the authors of “The Catholic Thing” aimed and or directed to Pope Francis:
Pope Francis Must Stop the Madness
And then this morning, Rorate Caeli published this French commentary on Vatican II as a failed Council:
“Vatican II: Still Waiting to be Implemented?... -- A Comparison with the Reception of the Council of Trent" - by Côme de Prévigny
My comments: It is striking how the Council of Trent was implemented and how successful it was, and quite quickly, even though it did circle the wagons and inspired everyone in and outside of that circled wagons to be missionary. How many laity, inspired by the Church and Jesus Christ, her Center in the collage of circled wagons, were brilliant at rearing strong Catholic families, sending many of their children off to seminaries, religious orders and lay institutes and third orders to evangelize the world and with great success. Those evangelized more often than not did not backslide into former ways.
Vatican II called everyone to uncircle the wagons of the Church and displace Christ as the Center, and collapse all the good works of the Council of Trent. It emptied churches as liturgists were gutting the interiors of magnificent Tridentine churches.
Religious life and the priesthood saw Tridentine religious and priests leave in droves and seminaries closed, hospitals closed, schools closed, charitable institutions closed and parishes closed. Once predominantly Catholic countries in Europe and South America are a mere shadow of themselves as Catholics have given into the evangelization of Protestants and Secularists.
In the west, where maybe 5% to 17% of Catholics actually attend Mass on some kind of regular basis, most don’t believe the doctrines, dogmas and morals of the Church, even taught by Vatican II’s documents.
And now Pope Francis, still living in the fog of what he thinks will take 100 years to implement Vatican II and bring about the promise of a new springtime of the Church, promotes synodality and its gnostic talking as the solution to become a Transfigured Church.
The gig is up and no one is fooled about this any longer, except those in the fog.
19 comments:
Some people find comfort in their delusions. By any objective measure V II has been a flop unless your goal was to not learn Latin or wear religious garb. By that measure it has been very successful. I call it the “Clergy Liberation Council.”
Father McDonald, this is the second time during the past couple of weeks that you have promoted, via Rorate Caeli, an anti-Pope Benedict XVI article by the anonymous Côme de Prévigny, an anti-Vatican II/Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Not surprisingly, New Catholic (Rorate Caeli) has long utilized Côme de Prévigny to attack Holy Mother Church.
Father McDonald, I realize that your purpose is not to attack Pope Benedict XVI.
Unfortunately, the article from a few weeks ago, "The Death of Benedict XVI: The Failure of the Hermeneutic of Continuity," as well as the current article, have attacked Pope Benedict XVI.
The earlier article insisted that at Vatican II, then-liberal Father Joseph Ratzinger had played a major role in having inflicted massive damage upon the Church.
The article then insisted that several years following the Council, the "rest of Benedict XVI's life consisted of repairing the damage of the most radical progressivism."
To accomplish that task, so as to salvage Vatican II, the article noted that Pope Benedict XVI had concocted the following: There were two Councils: The fake "Council of the media," which had damaged the Church. Then there is the authentic Council, which had blessed the Church.
The article had rejected Pope Benedict XVI's "two Councils" narrative. The article had noted that "the reforms of Vatican II were implemented not by journalists but, within the dioceses, by the bishops who knew full well what they had voted for in the conciliar aula."
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Father McDonald, the current article that you have promoted has continued in line with the above.
The current article has noted:
"Benedict XVI tried to distinguish the real Council, whose main actors were the bishops, from the false Council, the one that the media had fantasized about and which they had, in a way, imposed on the whole world:
"There was the Council of the Fathers - the real Council - but there was also the Council of the media. It was almost a Council in itself, and the world perceived the Council through them, through the media."
The current article continues:
"However, if Vatican II was implemented in the seminaries immediately after the end of the debates, it was not due to the media. If texts were promulgated to reform the liturgy in record time, if the updating of the life of the congregations was enacted as early as the 1960s, it was the prelates of the Curia and the diocesan bishops who carried the pen, not the journalists."
Father McDonald, if the articles in question are accurate, then to salvage the supposed failed, destructive Council, to which, as a liberal, he had contributed, Pope Benedict XVI concocted a false narrative that has flopped as badly as Vatican II.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Exactly Mark T. And adult and synodal Church needs to be a Church capable of critical thinking and able to critique her leaders, be it the pope, whoever that pope is, cardinals and other bishops, priests, deacons and lay ministers not to mention rank and file laity.
The ability to critique, which it seems you are now coming around to do with Pope Francis, and Pope Benedict, JP II and other popes is a grace from God in this synodal time and from the Holy Spirit of surprises.
I am glad to have helped you to be a critical thinker. God bless you.
Off topic, but this just in from our great "unitier"
Biden on lynching: "White families gathered to celebrate the spectacle, taking pictures of the bodies ... Some people still want to do that"
At Trent the Number of participants tere quiti small (50-60) especially compared to the thousands at V-2. The accomplishments were clearly summarized and "anathema sit" were applied to dissenters. That that Council failed to prevent the Protestant schism was duó not to a small extent of the political Climate in Europe at the time.
V-2 failed exactly where Trent excelled: it caused uncertainity not clarity with its verbose documents and theological innovations. The crime of mobilism (See: Iota Unum by Romano Amerio) spawned major theological deviations from Catholic orthodoxy so well stated at Trent.
if you think the situation today is especially bad jut wait: in another 3-5 years, outsider of the African continent and some isolated areas in the rest of the word, the TRUE FAiTH may be jut a memory.
“Most (lay people) don’t believe the doctrines and morals of the Church.”
Whose fault is that?
I remember once reading an article that stated: if it is true that approximately 70% of mass going Catholics don’t believe what the Church officially teaches about the Eucharist and the Real Presence - the main reason for that would have to be that approximately 70% of Catholic priests, in recent decades, don’t believe in what the Church has traditionally and officially taught for centuries re the Eucharist and the Real Presence.
I have spent a fair amount of money sending my daughters to a private Catholic school. For what? I’d say their understanding of the Eucharist, as a result of what they’ve been taught, probably is closest to what the Protestant reformer Zwingli first taught in the 16th century (Luther actually believed in the Real Presence…) They know that racism, homophobia etc are terrible sins. They know about the existential threat of climate change.
In the last year, comparative religious studies were taught. It amazed me how knowledgeable my oldest daughter was, and still is, on the basics of Islam - she can talk at length on the Five Pillars of Islam etc . I have witnessed in recent years how “displacing Christ from the centre” has played out in the religious education provided by this private Catholic school.
The recent anonymous "Côme de Prévigny" articles, via Rorate Caeli, have battered Pope Benedict XVI verbally...and have attempted to shatter Pope Benedict XVI's legacy.
Côme de Prévigny's articles in question have, as compared to Pope Francis, attacked Pope Benedict XVI in far greater fashion. Pope Francis has been mentioned in passing only.
Conversely, should we accept the two articles in question as valid, then the conclusion is that Pope Benedict XVI was an horrific, destructive force, who poisoned the Church.
Among Côme de Prévigny's horrific charges against Pope Benedict XVI:
"But on the other subjects on which the Council innovated, such as the ends of marriage, collegiality, religious freedom, ecumenism, Benedict XVI endorsed the reforms to the point of pursuing interreligious dialogue, not hesitating to renew the famous meeting of Assisi, though judged as one of the most questionable expressions of his predecessor's pontificate."
"On the subject of the founding principles of Catholicity, he also justified the abolition of Catholic states, turning his back on the principle of Christ's social reign over societies, as it had been understood for fifteen centuries."
Wow!
Anyway, I reject Côme de Prévigny's horrific portrayal of Pope Benedict XVI.
Father McDonald, I have to believe that you do as well. There has to have been a misunderstanding here.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald said..."The ability to critique, which it seems you are now coming around to do with Pope Francis, and Pope Benedict, JP II and other popes is a grace from God in this synodal time and from the Holy Spirit of surprises."
Father McDonald, my only critiques of the above-mentioned Popes is that they are (Pope Francis on earth), the others in Heaven, holy men of God.
I view them in positive fashion.
Father McDonald, I view you in positive fashion...even in greater fashion if you were to send me a year's supply of Chef Boyardee ravioli.
:-)
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"...the main reason for that would have to be that approximately 70% of Catholic priests, in recent decades, don’t believe in what the Church has traditionally and officially taught for centuries re the Eucharist and the Real Presence."
Consider this when thinking about PEW's numbers:
"In terms of understanding how research reports fit into this search process, we need to appreciate how data is derived. Otherwise, headlines become harbingers of truths that may not hold true.
One factor to consider here is sample size. The Disciple Maker Index, administered by the Catholic Leadership Institute, has currently surveyed 131,845 Catholics around the country about multiple themes connected with parish life. (By contrast, the PEW survey was based on 1,835 Catholics in a total sample population of 10,971.)
When asked about doctrines of the faith, seventy-two percent of the DMI respondents strongly agreed with the statement “I personally believe the Eucharist really is the body and blood of Jesus Christ.” Another nineteen percent agreed with that statement. That’s almost 120,000 Catholics claiming they do agree with what the Church teaches, compared to the 569 respondents highlighted in the PEW headline. (We note that the DMI respondents report a significantly high rate of weekly Mass attendance [ninety percent], which likely contributes to the higher level of agreement with Church teaching than reported in the PEW study.)"
As for the percentage of priests who "don’t believe in what the Church has traditionally and officially taught," I'd like to see some data to back up this claim. I suspect is is WAY off target.
Father Kavanaugh,
Thank you for having set the record straight in regard to the discredited PEW survey.
One analysis after another has revealed the preposterous nature of the PEW survey.
Surveys have found that 65 to 75 percent (even greater among those who assist regularly) of Catholics believe in the Real Presence.
One Synod listening session after another reported that the overwhelming majority of participants had expressed belief in the Real Presence.
Deo gratias that Fathers Kavanaugh, as well as McDonald, are holy, powerful witnesses, to Church teaching related to the Real Presence.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Now we have 2 Great Prevaricators!
The USCCB must believe the Pew Research is closer to the reality on the ground since they have launched an initiative to revive belief in the Real Presence.
On the Our Lady Help of Christians blog, Father Alain had written in regard to the PEW survey:
"I too was shocked at the headlines...but looking at the details of the survey, I was less shocked.
"The survey selected people who identify themselves as Catholics, the so-called “self-identified” Catholics. These are not necessarily "practicing Catholics”.
"As a matter of fact, a large majority of those surveyed did not attend Sunday Mass regularly.
"Among the so-called "Observant Catholics", those attending Mass at least once a week, it was found that TWO-THIRDS BELIEVED that the offered bread and wine actually become the BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST at CONSECRATION.
"This is what we call THE BELIEF IN THE REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS IN THE EUCHARIST: Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.
"Of course, what people remembered was the headlines about only one-third of "self-identified" Catholics not believing in the Eucharist. For me, I chose to remember the TWO-THIRDS of "practicing" Catholics BELIEVING IN THE EUCHARIST. This could and should be improved, but it gave me HOPE!"
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The discredited survey results have been weaponized by folks who have attacked Vatican II/Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Other than said folks, it is beyond comprehension that anybody would accept the results of such a discredited survey as the PEW survey.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
mark - Surveys have to be looked at carefully. I think a survey of 131,845 Catholics might be significantly more revealing than one that involved only 1,835.
Some people want to believe the sky is falling in order to be able to blame the people who disagree with them for the "disaster."
I was never convinced that the PEW survey was accurate, basing that on my own experience with the Catholics I have known and served. I sort of stumbled across the Disciple Maker Index while looking for something else. I'm glad to know that there is data that is, most likely, much closer to the reality on the ground.
Yet the 2 Great Prevaricators gloss over the USCCB’s initiative to revive belief in the Real Presence. They are two peas in a pod!
There is a silver lining to the discredited PEW survey:
The initial response to the PEW survey is akin to the initial response to the discredited Pennsylvania Report (in regard to sexual abuse allegations against priests).
Initial reports of the survey had led to a degree of acceptance among certain bishops many...but now, bishops have learned that the survey results are, at best, questionable...(actually, not even questionable...just false).
We will soon embark upon a National Eucharistic Revival.
The Faith among those who assist at Mass regularly will only deepen. Those who assist at Mass irregularly will be invited to strengthen their Faith...as well as assist at Mass regularly.
The revival will spur conversions to the Church.
Our bishops, to Holy Mother Church's spiritual benefit, have, if you will, baptized the survey.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I believe on numerous occasions Pope Benedict XVI called for a fresh read and implementation of Council mandates. Clearly, he must not have felt that it had been implemented as intended. I seriously doubt it ever will be, however, as the Council continues to be worshipped in a bizarre and counterproductive way (clearly attendance at mass hasn't profited).
Father Kavanaugh said..."I was never convinced that the PEW survey was accurate, basing that on my own experience with the Catholics I have known and served."
Based upon conservations with my brothers and sisters in the Faith, I, too, had rejected the PEW survey in question.
During Mass at my parish, as well as several nearby parishes, I have encountered repeatedly great reverence during the reception of Holy Communion.
Many Communicants, for example, light votive candles, or pray in front of sacred images, prior to their having returned to the pews.
By their actions alone, I do not have any doubt that, as various surveys have reported, the the overwhelming amount of Communicants believe in the Real Presence.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I guess the USCCB must be mistaken. So the 2 Great Prevaricators should contact the USCCB to tell them there is no need for their initiative to revive belief in the Real Presence. And the moon is made of green cheese
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