This has been said to me many times over my past 43 years as a priest. Someone who has never been to a Mass that I have celebrated, where I chant the parts that pertain to the priest, will say to me after Mass that they liked the pre-Vatican II elements that I inserted into the Mass, especially the chant.
Now, keep in mind that the Mass I am celebrating is in no way the pre-Vatican II Roman Missal and it is not in Latin, whatsoever! I simply chant my parts as written and do the red! That’s it. Otherwise the music and lay participation and the various ministries of the laity are very, very, very post-Vatican II Roman Missal!
Unbeknownst to me at the time, the 4 PM Ash Wednesday Mass with their choir, which I celebrated, was live-streamed on St. Gregory’s Facebook page.
You can view the Mass I celebrated HERE as a link to their facebook page. The Mass begins at 15:20:
20 comments:
Is that microphone on the stand only for livestreamed masses... I hope?
Where do you get this tilting of the chalice as the words of institution are spoken?
NOOOOO! And as you can imagine, the plethora of them drives me insane! Two in front of the chairs, two in front of the altar and one at the ambo. There is no cordless mic for the priest, which is nice, but I don’t like the messiness of all these microphone stands, as you can imagine, but I am now liberated from making decisions about these sorts of things.
It is an interpretation of the TLM’s rubrics, but not completely, as I don’t put my elbows on the altar. Pope Francis does it this way also.
Father McDonald,
I assume you occassionally read Father Hunwicke of Mutual Enrichment. Here is his reply to those who claim that the Novus Ordo's imposition was no different than what Pius X did in 1570:
"A few days ago, I included a paragraph from Fr Adrian Fortescue about the immense auctoritas, the antiquity and majesty and theological importance of the Authentic Roman Rite ... the rite by which most Western Christians were worshipping before 1970.
My purpose was to expose (yet again) the dishonesty of those who go around arguing that the publication of the Novus Ordo by S Paul VI in 1970 is somehow equivalent to the publication of an edition of the Roman Rite by S Pius V in 1570.
To state or even to hint at this is disgraceful. What S Pius promulgated was an edition of our rite which had evolved, gradually and organically and gracefully, since the Patristic period. In fact, S Pius made so few changes that it was still possible, after 1570, for a priest to use at the Altar the previous edition of the Roman Missal. In his Bull of Promulgation, the Pope in fact mandated the continuance of earlier 'dialects' of the Rite."
I wonder if old Arthur Roche even knows this.
Father McDonald, the important thing is that in line with Holy Mother Church's intention, and in communion with Pope Francis, you offered the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
As always, thank you for your service to God, and His True Church.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
During a NO, I personally have seen this done for both species and by several priests. Forearms resting on the mensa as well.
I have also seen the double genuflection during the NO.
During a NO, I was communed by a bishop who, in part, followed the old rubrics with the sign of the cross over the ciborium.
In all instances, I felt reverence was added where it is lacking....despite any potential liturgical offsides. In all instances, the levels of solemnity and reverence were very high in a natural and expected way, not forced, or analogous to play acting. For whatever reason, these are the Roman masses that I remember attending.
Byz - If one sign of the cross over the ciborium with the host adds reverence, why not three? Haven't we just tripled the reverence and solenity factor? Haven't we just gojne from good to better to best? What about 9 signs of the cross...?
And reading three different sources for the TLM rubrics, I see nothing mentioned about tilting the chalice during the words of institution.
Fr K,
Well if you had been an altarboy when the TLM was the principal Roman Rite you would know that as the priest bowed during the consecration the chalice tilted forward naturally
Fr. MJK
I was simply relating past experiences and how I reacted to them.
These small gestures, in totality, made the experience seem more special and reverent. Unnecessary? I suppose yes by NO standards.
Why would you react to my experiences by challenging quantity vs. value? I seriously doubt the bishop that I mentioned would have felt that more than one crossing above the ciborium was necessary.
As he comes to the actual words of consecration, the priest bows over the altar, leaning his forearms on it and, looking at the host, he slowly and reverently, in a low voice, pronounces Our Lord's own words. Thus - acting in the person of Christ - he changes the substance of the host into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Saviour.
https://aomoi.net/odv/tlm/rubrics_62_missal.htm
A lot of this boils down to taste and an old friend of mine who was especially well informed about liturgy as the wife of a pastoral provision priest: You can’t legislate taste, good or bad.
Someone somewhere is always going to carry things too far. If we are to maintain a space for our taste in face of the must larger bad taste crowd, we have to cultivate our bishops so that there is zero doubt that them folks kneeling for communion aren’t about to bolt OR try and run people off. The bishop may seem to be a jerk and in a lot of cases they are jerks, but he has a job to do one way or another. If he’s treated well by “us” always, he might act kindly toward us.
And for His Holiness Pope Francis, he acts as if all his nightmares are in Latin because he is so aggressively cruel to TLM communities who are no more disloyal or heretical or disruptive than the local hootenanny still playing down at our lady of Woodstock Catholic community of communion in a communion of communicating communions, yet he seems disinterested in conforming the hippies to any sort of standard. His high handed cruelty will be long remembered and demonstrates, once again, that tyranny is not the exclusive province “old fashioned” traditionalists. This fellow Francis…. Oh God, help us!
I’ve often heard that Jesuits are just so full of themselves, you’d think they were minor royalty. So taken with their own greatness that some of them live in meager circumstances to highlight their own abundant humility. And if you’re not sure, ask one of those fake-poor smug clowns, SJ.
Pope Francis aka Ming the “Merciful!”
JED, it is a combination of theology and taste. The criteria for a beautiful Mass in the Vetus Ordo means that the priest wears nice vestments, everything is in order in terms of the altar arrangement, altar vestments, choreography of the altar boys, with great care to follow the rubrics. A bad TLM is rushed, the priest inattentive to his role, maybe leaving out parts that are prayed quietly, etc
The modern form is so diverse, that any kind of music, as long as people can sing it, is great, even and especially very singable Protestant Hymns with a Protestant spirituality in terms of its sanguine nature, think of the emotion that “How Great Thou Art” brings forth, it is a Protestant spirituality, in terms of the emotional response. I think a well sung Panis Angelicus or Ave Maria, but sung in a Baptist Church would illicit from the Protestants an emotional response, but they would see that emotion as Catholic, not Protestant.
If Msgr. Cellini were to impose all Latin Chant and nothing else, at all the Modern Forms of the Mass at St. Gregory’s, there would be a meltdown amongst the laity, who prefer the more singable and contempory sounds with which they are accustomed and grew up with.
As it concerns the arrogance of the Jesuits, yes indeed there is in a significant number of the progressive ones, which I think they are in the majority. Donald McGuire, one of their most notorious sexual abuser of teenagers and of the Chicago Province was allowed to do his thing and in my diocese to boot and with some of my kids in my parish in Augusta. Even when parents pointed out to his superior the obvious, they got push back or no response. Thanks be to God, eventually he was arrested, put on trial and given a long prison sentence and died in prison. he was also a spiritual director for Mother Teressa and her sisters. His demise came from the laity who demanded accountability, not the Jesuits.
Compare that to the similar situation, although this one heterosexual and with vulnerable adult religious sisters, Rupnik. Even the pope seems to have given him a pass until the laity start blowing their top!!
Father McDonald,
If the imposition of Gregorian Chant, which Sacrosanctum Concilium required pastors to teach their congregations would cause a meltdown, then let us assign the blame to where it belongs - the clergy.
Byz - Reactions and feelings - "I was simply relating past experiences and how I reacted to them," are fine. But how a person feels or reacts isn't, I would suggest, the best reason to introduce or maintain a liturgical practice.
Fr. MJK,
I don't disagree. I'm not in my Office today and not relying on my phone, I can better see the photos. What are your thoughts on the introduction of dead branches flanking the tabernacle? My reaction is "Why? They're dead.". It's not like the tables or the crucifix when the wood was made into something. A good introduction, or practice to be maintained?
Fr K,
You just undermined the basis pfor the Novus Ordo, created not on solid research or theology, but “feelings!”
Byz - We use various items of decoration at different times of the year to evoke a sense of the season. It might be lilies (which to me smell like burned plastic!) at Easter or poinsettias at Christmas. Here we cover the gold leaf Chi Rho that is carved in the front of our our black Norwegian granite altar with an unadorned violet cloth - an altar frontal, if you will.
Leafless branches can give a sense of dryness or lifelessness, not entirely inappropriate for a season of introspection and penance. Their lack of greenery might also offer a hint of better things to come. On the other hand, the green palms on Palm Sunday offer a different sense.
Decorations should be thought out and well-executed.
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