Here's a real "confidence" builder in the Church's "governance:"
The Australian @australian #BREAKING A senior Catholic cardinal Giovanni Angelo Becciu has been accused of using $1.14m of Vatican funds to bribe witnesses to secure a sex abuse conviction against rival Cardinal George Pell.
And the new Archbishop of Washington looks like a clown in those togs
"An Australian man who accused Cardinal George Pell of sexually abusing him has denied he was bribed for his testimony, rejecting the latest conspiracy theory to roil the Vatican amid a corruption investigation into its finances."
In the history of chasubles, the "fiddleback" style is relatively discontinuous as St. Charles Borromeo noted, and only a few hundred years old.
"Saint Charles laid down regulations about the dimensions of vestments for the Sacred Liturgy because, it would seem, he was concerned that the form of the vestments, which had been handed down for centuries, was being cast aside in favour of something convenient and “fashionable”. The chasuble, derived from the Latin word for “a little house” had been for centuries an ample garment. In the 15th and 16th centuries, there had been significant divergence from this Tradition, however, resulting in a form of chasuble that wasn’t ample, but cut right back so that it comprised a sort of narrow pendant, front and back, on the wearer. We know this form of chasuble as the “Roman” or “fiddleback” chasuble, and some claim that this is the form of the chasuble that is truly “traditional”. But Borromeo didn’t think that: he thought it represented a break with Tradition. And he specified the minimum size to which he expected chasubles to conform. They were to be at least 54 inches (138cm) wide and, at the back, they were to reach down almost to the heels of the wearer. Saint Charles wasn't attempting to determine how a chasuble should be decorated, he was simply trying to preserve a minimum standard for the dimensions of the chasuble."
The much fuller cut chasulbe worn by Archbishop Gregory is in continuity with the ancient paenula and the later gothic styles. The mis-named "Roman" fiddleback is not.
I don't know what type chasuble Father M. was wearing in the pictures at his recent EF Mass but I think whatever type he was wearing would be a good fit, looking at the other two pictures above.
Reminds me of old story attending an Anglican service in Virginia decades ago and I noticed the priest was wearing a fairly ornate chasuble (unusual in a state where "Low Church" Anglicanism was the norm for years---priests often did not wear chasubles in that state---Anglican ones that is---before the 1980s). I asked after the service where he got the chasuble, and said it was rescued from Chicago of all places, as in rescued from the trash bin to move into the more "modern era." Wonder how many similar stories out there?!?
(By the way, why must folks insist on "Anonymous"? It allows no way to distinguish this commenter from that. There is a simple solution that requires no great effort: simply add some nom de plume at the end of your comment. It would be very considerate.)
I won't contest your history, but I will offer this, as someone who wears a chasuble every day and several times on the weekend. Even with air conditioning, the various layers of vestments can be sweltering; and I can't see how it's good for the vestments to get soaked with sweat, either.
This I mention as an explanation, if not justification, for the development of the "fiddleback" vestment. And I will add that having all that extra material around ones forearms is a headache, something St. Charles may have appreciated, because however ample the Borromean/Nerian style Roman vestment was, it still was cut fairly high on the arm, if not all the way to the shoulder, as with the "fiddleback."
And for anyone who may be buying vestments: the most comfortable material, surprisingly, is wool. Wool breathes, synthetics don't, and silk and satin slip around. I suppose cotton or linen would be comfortable, but I've never seen a vestment made out of either of those, and I doubt they would be substantial enough.
And for any priests reading this: remember my warning for whenever you install or re-arrange the air conditioning in your church. Take care, my friend, to make sure cool air is successfully conveyed to wherever you, the priest, will be standing for much of the Mass. I say this, because over the years, I have been in many churches with a/c that is great everywhere except the sanctuary, and particularly the area at the altar, which is generally elevated and remember, cool air falls, while warm air rises. If the priest doesn't weigh in, he will be forgotten.
Ecclesiastical vestments are to a large extent a matter of fashion. I would not not attend a vernacular Mass with women swarming all over the sanctuary and crap 1960s music even if Fr Kananaugh were wearing baroque vestments and a powdered wig.
"An Australian man who accused Cardinal George Pell of sexually abusing him has denied he was bribed for his testimony, rejecting the latest conspiracy theory to roil the Vatican amid a corruption investigation into its finances."
Hopefully the truth will come about about this, but, really,is it all that surprising that this person denies being bribed? If true,why would he admit to that? And if not true he would of course deny.
This is for the faux catholics who post here. Biden has made clear where he stands on abortion "rights."
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Biden Doubles Down on Abortion, Would Make ‘Roe the Law of the Land’ After decades of previous reservations about unrestricted abortion and Roe v. Wade, which he originally said went "too far," the Democratic nominee for president committed to enshrining the full extent of the decision in law during the 2019 Democratic primary contest.
Former vice-president Joe Biden formally launches his 2020 presidential campaign during a rally May 18, 2019, at Eakins Oval in Philadelphia. Former vice-president Joe Biden formally launches his 2020 presidential campaign during a rally May 18, 2019, at Eakins Oval in Philadelphia. (photo: Matt Smith / Shutterstock) Catholic News Agency Nation October 6, 2020 WASHINGTON — Former vice president Joe Biden, the Democratic Party’s nominee for president, repeated his pledge to codify a right to abortion into federal law should the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision be overturned by the Supreme Court.
Speaking at an outdoor town hall event airing on NBC Monday, Biden was asked what he would do to protect “reproductive health rights” should Judge Amy Coney Barrett be confirmed to the Supreme Court.
“Number one, we don’t know exactly what [Barrett] will do, although the expectation is that she may very well move to overrule Roe, and what the only thing--the only responsible response to that would be to pass legislation making Roe the law of the land,” said Biden. “That’s what I would do.”
It would be very considerate if people would not make rude remarks such as, "Someone should tell Archbishop Gregory that the 1970's are long past" and, "And the new Archbishop of Washington looks like a clown in those togs."
Funny you don't mention THAT lack of consideration which, IMnsHO, should be of greater concern than someone using "Anonymous" for posting.
The material of a full-cut chasuble is not "extra fabric" any more than the wings on an airplane are "extra appendages." They are part and parcel of the chasuble in that style. Oh, yes, the "fiddleback" functions as a chasuble and would function if it were 20% or 30% or 40% smaller. In fact, the priest could tape a strip of material of the proper liturgical color to his back and be done with it! A Model T Ford "functions" as an automobile, but I don't recommend it for cross country travel. While it "functions," I think it inadvisable.
I find full cut vestments to be entirely manageable with zero incumbrance.
As for being sweaty, buy small fan. Amazing things, those are.
Anonymous at October 6, 2020 at 8:09 AM said..."Here's a real "confidence" builder in the Church's "governance:"
#BREAKING A senior Catholic cardinal Giovanni Angelo Becciu has been accused of using $1.14m of Vatican funds to bribe witnesses to secure a sex abuse conviction against rival Cardinal George Pell.
The good Archbishop has been I'll served by his Sacristan.The Stole is symbolic of power,and should be worn beneath the Chasuble;a symbol of humility.
I would also suggest that "noble symplicity" was weaponized ,as applied to Priestly vestments, as an excuse to discard further examples of tradition from the Post Vatican II ceremonial of the church.Some of the tawdry contemporary examples show no sense of the sacred.
The chasuble is not a symbol of humility. It is the "yoke of Christ."
(Priests) As the chasuble is worn: "Domine, qui dixisti: Jugum meum suave est et onus meum leve: fac, ut istud portare sic valeam, quod consequar tuam gratiam.
Lord, you have said: My yoke is sweet and my burden is light. Grant that I may carry your yoke well so as to obtain your grace."
The stole is not a symbol of power, but of our restored relationship with God through Christ(the stole "embraces" the wearer as God's mercy does" and, by that means, our hope to enter heaven.
"As the stole is worn:
Redde mihi, Domine, stolam immortalitatis, quam perdidi in praevaricatione primi parentis: et, quamvis indignus accedo ad tuum sacrum mysterium, merear tamen gaudium sempiterum.
Lord, restore the stole of immortality, which I lost through the actions of our first parents, and although I am unworthy to approach your sacred mysteries, may I gain eternal joy."
The "garish" pre-Vatican II chasubles never really bothered me (in fact, I even like them) because they remind me so much of European folk art and dress. Look up the traditional clothes for many European countries and even the men's clothing will be covered with embroidered floral patterns and even lace. The vestments Fr McDonald posted look very reserved in comparison.
Why yes, I have heard of such things as a fan. I wonder if you realize how very condescending and insulting that comment was? What need was there for that?
And I'm sorry you were upset that someone else was insulting to yet another person not here. I don't speak of people that way, so I trust in the power of my example. I wasn't aware I was elected to police all incivility on this blog. What does this position pay? And am I only responsible for particular blog posts, or am I expected to police rude comments everywhere on this blog? These are important questions, as it will help me decide if the remuneration is adequate.
The reason I addressed the issue I did, with you, is because I was talking to you, in the course of responding to you. I thought I was very polite about it, I did not insult your intelligence ("...buy small fan. Amazing things, those are").
And I might add, one reason I hope the various Anonymoi (hypothetical plural) to identify themselves is so that one can reasonably minimize attributing the comments of one to another. Other than not being bothered, I don't know why those who comment anonymously don't do this. It would make for a better conversation, I think.
I wonder if your realize how silly your pick-and-choose protestations of who is considerate and who is inconsiderate makes you look? Why let the really insulting and disrepectful comments about an archbishop pass, and then choose to whine about people who post under "Anonymous" which is a daily, even hourly, occurance on this blog?
You are responsible for no posts on this blog save your own. And in your 11:19 post you choose to pick on a completely innocuous comment, while giving the truly rude and inconsiderate poists a complete pass. Yes, that's a great "example."
It takes zero effort to say "Anonymous at 2:22" when responding to an anonymous post. As far as I can tell, that makes the attrubution 100% clear.
Those who can't even supply an identifying pseudonym aren't worth your time and insight. They mostly n-e-v-e-r see any good in other than their own viewpoint. Discussion made difficult, indeed!
I would say the a/c concern extends to those serving at the altar as well. Often, the altar/holy place is the most toasty part of the church/temple. Likewise, the altar/holy place seems always to be at the bottom of the list regarding adequate ventilation. On a day that most in attendance would consider cool and under multiple layers, it is always warm.
The mask is gaudy ! While I do like the appearance of the traditional vestments, I wouldn't want to make a statement that all forms of modern vestments are inappropriate. Its just that the red vestment is reminiscent of the Seinfeld 8-Ball Jacket, a little over the top. I also have heard that the stole should be worn under the chasuble. I recall an old discussion by a friar that asked if a priest wears a stole over the chasuble,should he also wear one under the chasuble? For materials I read the chasuble should be made of elegant(rich) cloth,not cotton. Of course silk is the first to come to mind. I wonder, what were the luxurious cloths before the invention of the synthetics such as nylon, rayon, and polyester ? What were chasubles made of in the time of St. Francis of Assisi? anonymous#9
The condescending and insulting "anonymous" is a brother priest who posts here regularly under various forms, sometimes, anonymously. What a great guy! Keep posting. We enjoy your comments which are always thought provoking.
I think the real reason people such as Anonymous at 5:05 prefers to remain anonymous is that he or she is a coward. S/he wants to slither in and out and avoid any actual accountability. I use my real name and can be held accountable for my comments; "Anonymous" wishes to escape accountability.
The majority of people who post anonymously are not Fr K if writing style or specific opinions are anything to go by.
I myself don't care to use my real name online, but try to have a consistent moniker of some sort. Sometimes I post anonymously because it is allowed here. My real name is very unusual (at least amongst English speakers) so a quick Google search would pretty much reveal everything about me and only me. Considering I work with people who have mental health issues, or drug and gang involvement, I don't like the idea of someone not in their right mind instantly knowing so much about me. When a comment section presses for a "real" name, I simply make something up that is sort of related to my real name or sounds real.
As for Gothic vs. Fiddleback vestments. It seems to me that all priests should have the humility to wear either one if the occasion or circumstances call for it (like maybe the parish has a historic or very special set of vestments used a few days a year). Otherwise, if the priest is buying them for himself, he should get to buy what he is more comfortable with providing it is of high quality and good artistry.
Looking at the face mask in the photo, I find it interesting how some within the Roman Church are always looking for a way to make a statement, politicize things, even through vestiture. Why is this necessary, this constant self-centered need to make a statement - to promote one's agenda? In the East, we are slaves to the liturgy. As such, would never consider such a display. The Bishop's intentions might be good, but, there's a time and place for that outside of liturgy.
Romulus Augustus here, I for one love the Roman Fiddleback but guess what? As long as it is a Traditional Latin Mass I could care less what the priest wares Gothic or Fiddleback the point is to restore the TLM period. As for Wilton Gregory well I have my opinions about him especially from his priests in Atlanta during his tunure there alas I will not comment on that since my post would be deleted. Gotta say however vestments just the same 70's stuff with that typical children's artwork on the mitre and chasuble and the modern crozier and does he have to make a political statement on his face mask I mean honestly just offer Holy Mass and not make it a political statement. But that is the Novus Ordo it is all about HEY look at me pay attention to me and not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In the TLM it is all about the priest leading the congregation in offering up the Holy Sacrifice and this is TRUE participation folks. That is one reason why the high altars were so gorgeous and eye catching because when gazing up at them you would see Heaven with the statues of saints, angels, artwork and the crucifix it all made sense prior to the New Springtime, and for that matter everything made sense including every rubric and gesture of the priest during Holy Mass is was perfect in every way shape and form.
Great question. I suppose for the same reason many say "spoon fulls" instead of "spoons full". Another example is "stalk of celery" when, really, that person means a rib of celery. Time and altered usage leads to acceptance (e.g. slang) or, just not realizing how the meaning can be changed through misuse.
About the fiddleback: I don't wear it because I am...ample; and I doubt it is an edifying sight. Gothic vestments seem to give a more pleasing appearance.
"A. As a recipe writer, I’ve gone back and forth on celery. By most definitions, a whole head of celery is a stalk and a single “stick” from the stalk is a rib. Some dictionaries use the accurate but clunky term “leafstalk” for a single rib."
"Irregardless is a word sometimes used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795. Most dictionaries list it as non-standard or incorrect usage, and recommend that "regardless" should be used instead."
As a northerner, I cannot offer a comment/opinion on "Vee-hicle". That one belongs solely to the south!
No, I'm not a recipe writer. I simply copied that for my critically important posting regarding the distinction between a stalk of celery and a rib of celery.
'Irregardless' is a double negative. Chambers, which includes American usage, does not even list it. Chris Taylor, copy editor of the Guardian newspaper, has this to say:
'Clearly, if enough people use a word - including irregardless - it is a word. But clearly anyone who uses the word irregardless is an idiot.
Apparently an entire country - the United States - is happy to use the phrase "I could care less" instead of the logical, coherent and correct "I couldn't care less". So, as the linguists say, all you need to validate a word is a community of speakers. It's just that they'd all be wrong.'
By the way, British cooks refer to a stick of celery, and talk about aubergines and courgettes, not eggplants and zucchini. Even quantities are measured differently.
John, as Rex Harrison reminded us many moons ago, we in America haven't used English for years. Of course, he also had some things to say about the Brits. Lol.
42 comments:
Someone should tell Archbishop Gregory that the 1970's are long past.
For a split second I thought the second picture was of a fan of the Montreal Canadians.
Here's a real "confidence" builder in the Church's "governance:"
The Australian
@australian
#BREAKING A senior Catholic cardinal Giovanni Angelo Becciu has been accused of using $1.14m of Vatican funds to bribe witnesses to secure a sex abuse conviction against rival Cardinal George Pell.
And the new Archbishop of Washington looks like a clown in those togs
How about something "in-between" the two extremes pictured?
I like the older styled chasubles. They give me a sense of continuity. The modern ones give me a sense of trying too hard to be relevant.
"An Australian man who accused Cardinal George Pell of sexually abusing him has denied he was bribed for his testimony, rejecting the latest conspiracy theory to roil the Vatican amid a corruption investigation into its finances."
Denilquin Pastoral Times. 6 October 2020
"They give me a sense of continuity."
Continuity with what?
In the history of chasubles, the "fiddleback" style is relatively discontinuous as St. Charles Borromeo noted, and only a few hundred years old.
"Saint Charles laid down regulations about the dimensions of vestments for the Sacred Liturgy because, it would seem, he was concerned that the form of the vestments, which had been handed down for centuries, was being cast aside in favour of something convenient and “fashionable”. The chasuble, derived from the Latin word for “a little house” had been for centuries an ample garment. In the 15th and 16th centuries, there had been significant divergence from this Tradition, however, resulting in a form of chasuble that wasn’t ample, but cut right back so that it comprised a sort of narrow pendant, front and back, on the wearer. We know this form of chasuble as the “Roman” or “fiddleback” chasuble, and some claim that this is the form of the chasuble that is truly “traditional”. But Borromeo didn’t think that: he thought it represented a break with Tradition. And he specified the minimum size to which he expected chasubles to conform. They were to be at least 54 inches (138cm) wide and, at the back, they were to reach down almost to the heels of the wearer. Saint Charles wasn't attempting to determine how a chasuble should be decorated, he was simply trying to preserve a minimum standard for the dimensions of the chasuble."
http://saintbedestudio.blogspot.com/2009/11/feast-of-s-charles-borromeo.html
The much fuller cut chasulbe worn by Archbishop Gregory is in continuity with the ancient paenula and the later gothic styles. The mis-named "Roman" fiddleback is not.
"The modern ones give me a sense of trying too hard to be relevant."
The anthem of the modern Roman Church.
I don't know what type chasuble Father M. was wearing in the pictures at his recent EF Mass but I think whatever type he was wearing would be a good fit, looking at the other two pictures above.
Reminds me of old story attending an Anglican service in Virginia decades ago and I noticed the priest was wearing a fairly ornate chasuble (unusual in a state where "Low Church" Anglicanism was the norm for years---priests often did not wear chasubles in that state---Anglican ones that is---before the 1980s). I asked after the service where he got the chasuble, and said it was rescued from Chicago of all places, as in rescued from the trash bin to move into the more "modern era." Wonder how many similar stories out there?!?
Anonymous at 9:51...
(By the way, why must folks insist on "Anonymous"? It allows no way to distinguish this commenter from that. There is a simple solution that requires no great effort: simply add some nom de plume at the end of your comment. It would be very considerate.)
I won't contest your history, but I will offer this, as someone who wears a chasuble every day and several times on the weekend. Even with air conditioning, the various layers of vestments can be sweltering; and I can't see how it's good for the vestments to get soaked with sweat, either.
This I mention as an explanation, if not justification, for the development of the "fiddleback" vestment. And I will add that having all that extra material around ones forearms is a headache, something St. Charles may have appreciated, because however ample the Borromean/Nerian style Roman vestment was, it still was cut fairly high on the arm, if not all the way to the shoulder, as with the "fiddleback."
And for anyone who may be buying vestments: the most comfortable material, surprisingly, is wool. Wool breathes, synthetics don't, and silk and satin slip around. I suppose cotton or linen would be comfortable, but I've never seen a vestment made out of either of those, and I doubt they would be substantial enough.
And for any priests reading this: remember my warning for whenever you install or re-arrange the air conditioning in your church. Take care, my friend, to make sure cool air is successfully conveyed to wherever you, the priest, will be standing for much of the Mass. I say this, because over the years, I have been in many churches with a/c that is great everywhere except the sanctuary, and particularly the area at the altar, which is generally elevated and remember, cool air falls, while warm air rises. If the priest doesn't weigh in, he will be forgotten.
Ecclesiastical vestments are to a large extent a matter of fashion. I would not not attend a vernacular Mass with women swarming all over the sanctuary and crap 1960s music even if Fr Kananaugh were wearing baroque vestments and a powdered wig.
"An Australian man who accused Cardinal George Pell of sexually abusing him has denied he was bribed for his testimony, rejecting the latest conspiracy theory to roil the Vatican amid a corruption investigation into its finances."
Hopefully the truth will come about about this, but, really,is it all that surprising that this person denies being bribed? If true,why would he admit to that? And if not true he would of course deny.
This is for the faux catholics who post here. Biden has made clear where he stands on abortion "rights."
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Biden Doubles Down on Abortion, Would Make ‘Roe the Law of the Land’
After decades of previous reservations about unrestricted abortion and Roe v. Wade, which he originally said went "too far," the Democratic nominee for president committed to enshrining the full extent of the decision in law during the 2019 Democratic primary contest.
Former vice-president Joe Biden formally launches his 2020 presidential campaign during a rally May 18, 2019, at Eakins Oval in Philadelphia.
Former vice-president Joe Biden formally launches his 2020 presidential campaign during a rally May 18, 2019, at Eakins Oval in Philadelphia. (photo: Matt Smith / Shutterstock)
Catholic News Agency
Nation
October 6, 2020
WASHINGTON — Former vice president Joe Biden, the Democratic Party’s nominee for president, repeated his pledge to codify a right to abortion into federal law should the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision be overturned by the Supreme Court.
Speaking at an outdoor town hall event airing on NBC Monday, Biden was asked what he would do to protect “reproductive health rights” should Judge Amy Coney Barrett be confirmed to the Supreme Court.
“Number one, we don’t know exactly what [Barrett] will do, although the expectation is that she may very well move to overrule Roe, and what the only thing--the only responsible response to that would be to pass legislation making Roe the law of the land,” said Biden. “That’s what I would do.”
It would be very considerate if people would not make rude remarks such as, "Someone should tell Archbishop Gregory that the 1970's are long past" and, "And the new Archbishop of Washington looks like a clown in those togs."
Funny you don't mention THAT lack of consideration which, IMnsHO, should be of greater concern than someone using "Anonymous" for posting.
The material of a full-cut chasuble is not "extra fabric" any more than the wings on an airplane are "extra appendages." They are part and parcel of the chasuble in that style. Oh, yes, the "fiddleback" functions as a chasuble and would function if it were 20% or 30% or 40% smaller. In fact, the priest could tape a strip of material of the proper liturgical color to his back and be done with it! A Model T Ford "functions" as an automobile, but I don't recommend it for cross country travel. While it "functions," I think it inadvisable.
I find full cut vestments to be entirely manageable with zero incumbrance.
As for being sweaty, buy small fan. Amazing things, those are.
Anonymous at October 6, 2020 at 8:09 AM said..."Here's a real "confidence" builder in the Church's "governance:"
#BREAKING A senior Catholic cardinal Giovanni Angelo Becciu has been accused of using $1.14m of Vatican funds to bribe witnesses to secure a sex abuse conviction against rival Cardinal George Pell.
==========================================================================================
Here's a real "confidence" builder in the Church's "governance:"
Breaking:
-- Saint Peter denied Jesus Christ three times.
-- Judas betrayed Jesus Christ.
-- Then all the disciples left him and fled.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
The good Archbishop has been I'll served by his Sacristan.The Stole is symbolic of power,and should be worn beneath the Chasuble;a symbol of humility.
I would also suggest that "noble symplicity" was weaponized ,as applied to Priestly vestments, as an excuse to discard further examples of tradition from the Post Vatican II ceremonial of the church.Some of the tawdry contemporary examples show no sense of the sacred.
The chasuble is not a symbol of humility. It is the "yoke of Christ."
(Priests) As the chasuble is worn:
"Domine, qui dixisti:
Jugum meum suave est et onus meum leve:
fac, ut istud portare sic valeam,
quod consequar tuam gratiam.
Lord, you have said:
My yoke is sweet and my burden is light.
Grant that I may carry your yoke well
so as to obtain your grace."
The stole is not a symbol of power, but of our restored relationship with God through Christ(the stole "embraces" the wearer as God's mercy does" and, by that means, our hope to enter heaven.
"As the stole is worn:
Redde mihi, Domine,
stolam immortalitatis,
quam perdidi in praevaricatione primi parentis:
et, quamvis indignus accedo ad tuum sacrum mysterium,
merear tamen gaudium sempiterum.
Lord,
restore the stole of immortality,
which I lost through the actions of our first parents,
and although I am unworthy to approach your sacred mysteries,
may I gain eternal joy."
The "garish" pre-Vatican II chasubles never really bothered me (in fact, I even like them) because they remind me so much of European folk art and dress. Look up the traditional clothes for many European countries and even the men's clothing will be covered with embroidered floral patterns and even lace. The vestments Fr McDonald posted look very reserved in comparison.
Anonymous:
Why yes, I have heard of such things as a fan. I wonder if you realize how very condescending and insulting that comment was? What need was there for that?
And I'm sorry you were upset that someone else was insulting to yet another person not here. I don't speak of people that way, so I trust in the power of my example. I wasn't aware I was elected to police all incivility on this blog. What does this position pay? And am I only responsible for particular blog posts, or am I expected to police rude comments everywhere on this blog? These are important questions, as it will help me decide if the remuneration is adequate.
The reason I addressed the issue I did, with you, is because I was talking to you, in the course of responding to you. I thought I was very polite about it, I did not insult your intelligence ("...buy small fan. Amazing things, those are").
And I might add, one reason I hope the various Anonymoi (hypothetical plural) to identify themselves is so that one can reasonably minimize attributing the comments of one to another. Other than not being bothered, I don't know why those who comment anonymously don't do this. It would make for a better conversation, I think.
I wonder if your realize how silly your pick-and-choose protestations of who is considerate and who is inconsiderate makes you look? Why let the really insulting and disrepectful comments about an archbishop pass, and then choose to whine about people who post under "Anonymous" which is a daily, even hourly, occurance on this blog?
You are responsible for no posts on this blog save your own. And in your 11:19 post you choose to pick on a completely innocuous comment, while giving the truly rude and inconsiderate poists a complete pass. Yes, that's a great "example."
It takes zero effort to say "Anonymous at 2:22" when responding to an anonymous post. As far as I can tell, that makes the attrubution 100% clear.
Fr. Martin Fox,
Those who can't even supply an identifying pseudonym aren't worth your time and insight. They mostly n-e-v-e-r see any good in other than their own viewpoint. Discussion made difficult, indeed!
I would say the a/c concern extends to those serving at the altar as well. Often, the altar/holy place is the most toasty part of the church/temple. Likewise, the altar/holy place seems always to be at the bottom of the list regarding adequate ventilation. On a day that most in attendance would consider cool and under multiple layers, it is always warm.
The mask is gaudy ! While I do like the appearance of the traditional vestments, I wouldn't want to make a statement that all forms of modern vestments are inappropriate. Its just that the red vestment is reminiscent of the Seinfeld 8-Ball Jacket, a little over the top. I also have heard that the stole should be worn under the chasuble. I recall an old discussion by a friar that asked if a priest wears a stole over the chasuble,should he also wear one under the chasuble? For materials I read the chasuble should be made of elegant(rich) cloth,not cotton. Of course silk is the first to come to mind. I wonder, what were the luxurious cloths before the invention of the synthetics such as nylon, rayon, and polyester ? What were chasubles made of in the time of St. Francis of Assisi?
anonymous#9
Father Fox,
The condescending and insulting "anonymous" is a brother priest who posts here regularly under various forms, sometimes, anonymously. What a great guy! Keep posting. We enjoy your comments which are always thought provoking.
ByzRus:
I think the real reason people such as Anonymous at 5:05 prefers to remain anonymous is that he or she is a coward. S/he wants to slither in and out and avoid any actual accountability. I use my real name and can be held accountable for my comments; "Anonymous" wishes to escape accountability.
The majority of people who post anonymously are not Fr K if writing style or specific opinions are anything to go by.
I myself don't care to use my real name online, but try to have a consistent moniker of some sort. Sometimes I post anonymously because it is allowed here. My real name is very unusual (at least amongst English speakers) so a quick Google search would pretty much reveal everything about me and only me. Considering I work with people who have mental health issues, or drug and gang involvement, I don't like the idea of someone not in their right mind instantly knowing so much about me. When a comment section presses for a "real" name, I simply make something up that is sort of related to my real name or sounds real.
As for Gothic vs. Fiddleback vestments. It seems to me that all priests should have the humility to wear either one if the occasion or circumstances call for it (like maybe the parish has a historic or very special set of vestments used a few days a year). Otherwise, if the priest is buying them for himself, he should get to buy what he is more comfortable with providing it is of high quality and good artistry.
Looking at the face mask in the photo, I find it interesting how some within the Roman Church are always looking for a way to make a statement, politicize things, even through vestiture. Why is this necessary, this constant self-centered need to make a statement - to promote one's agenda? In the East, we are slaves to the liturgy. As such, would never consider such a display. The Bishop's intentions might be good, but, there's a time and place for that outside of liturgy.
Romulus Augustus here, I for one love the Roman Fiddleback but guess what? As long as it is a Traditional Latin Mass I could care less what the priest wares Gothic or Fiddleback the point is to restore the TLM period. As for Wilton Gregory well I have my opinions about him especially from his priests in Atlanta during his tunure there alas I will not comment on that since my post would be deleted. Gotta say however vestments just the same 70's stuff with that typical children's artwork on the mitre and chasuble and the modern crozier and does he have to make a political statement on his face mask I mean honestly just offer Holy Mass and not make it a political statement. But that is the Novus Ordo it is all about HEY look at me pay attention to me and not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In the TLM it is all about the priest leading the congregation in offering up the Holy Sacrifice and this is TRUE participation folks. That is one reason why the high altars were so gorgeous and eye catching because when gazing up at them you would see Heaven with the statues of saints, angels, artwork and the crucifix it all made sense prior to the New Springtime, and for that matter everything made sense including every rubric and gesture of the priest during Holy Mass is was perfect in every way shape and form.
Why do Americans write 'could care less' when what they really mean is 'couldn't care less'. Think about it.
John Nolan:
Great question. I suppose for the same reason many say "spoon fulls" instead of "spoons full". Another example is "stalk of celery" when, really, that person means a rib of celery. Time and altered usage leads to acceptance (e.g. slang) or, just not realizing how the meaning can be changed through misuse.
Rib of celery???????? Ah, no, not just no, but hell no. It is a stalk of celery and no one in the south would call it a rib of celery!
Many people say irregardless which all is needed is regardless.
In the south, when we speak of the measurement of "feet" (12 inches) like one foot, many will say three foot or five foot rather than feet.
In the south the word vehicle is many times pronounced vehickle.
I might add that my spell check recognizes irregardless as a word. So is it or not????, Irregardless does it matter?
About the fiddleback: I don't wear it because I am...ample; and I doubt it is an edifying sight. Gothic vestments seem to give a more pleasing appearance.
Byz
Except that 'could care less' and 'couldn't care less' are opposites. In both cases the meaning is clear. The former can only mean one cares a lot.
As a welcome diversion from more serious discussion, I offer the following:
https://www.seattletimes.com/life/food-drink/celery-question-8212-whats-a-rib-vs-stalk/#:~:text=By%20most%20definitions%2C%20a%20whole,leafstalk%E2%80%9D%20for%20a%20single%20rib.
"A. As a recipe writer, I’ve gone back and forth on celery. By most definitions, a whole head of celery is a stalk and a single “stick” from the stalk is a rib. Some dictionaries use the accurate but clunky term “leafstalk” for a single rib."
"Irregardless is a word sometimes used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795. Most dictionaries list it as non-standard or incorrect usage, and recommend that "regardless" should be used instead."
As a northerner, I cannot offer a comment/opinion on "Vee-hicle". That one belongs solely to the south!
Fr. Fox, still nothing to say about the truly inconsiderate comments posted by Anonymous at 7:44 and Anonymous at 8:09?
Hmmm...
Anon 3:37:
You're under the mistaken impression that anyone here owes you any sort of explanation for anything.
John Nolan said..."Why do Americans write 'could care less' when what they really mean is 'couldn't care less'. Think about it."
We say that for the same reason we say "fat chance" and "slim chance" and yet mean the same thing by both expressions: just because we can. Lol.
Byz - Nope, not at all. I expect nothing. I just operate under the assumption that people will, in general, do the right thing.
We do the right thing for God and for ourselves, whether it is "owed" to anyone else or not.
BYZ
A recipe writer! Have you published anything? I'm always looking for ideas!
No, I'm not a recipe writer. I simply copied that for my critically important posting regarding the distinction between a stalk of celery and a rib of celery.
😂😂
'Irregardless' is a double negative. Chambers, which includes American usage, does not even list it. Chris Taylor, copy editor of the Guardian newspaper, has this to say:
'Clearly, if enough people use a word - including irregardless - it is a word. But clearly anyone who uses the word irregardless is an idiot.
Apparently an entire country - the United States - is happy to use the phrase "I could care less" instead of the logical, coherent and correct "I couldn't care less". So, as the linguists say, all you need to validate a word is a community of speakers. It's just that they'd all be wrong.'
By the way, British cooks refer to a stick of celery, and talk about aubergines and courgettes, not eggplants and zucchini. Even quantities are measured differently.
John, as Rex Harrison reminded us many moons ago, we in America haven't used English for years. Of course, he also had some things to say about the Brits. Lol.
https://www.google.com/search?q=why+can%27t+the+english&oq=Why+can%27t+the+English&aqs=chrome.0.0j46j0j46j0j46j0.3468j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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