I don't know too much about Italian politics except for the fact it is as Italian as it can get, unpredictable, chaotic, sarcastic, polarizing, changing and hyperbolic. I know Italians.
Thus, with that backdrop, John Allen in today's Crux observes the following:
Although Italy appears to have flattened the curve of the pandemic, with projections currently suggesting that some regions may reach zero new infections by mid-April, the death toll continues to mount - 15,887 as of Sunday - and authorities insist it will be some time before a strict national lockdown can begin to be rolled back.
Despite that, polarizing Italian politician Matteo Salvini, leader of the far-right Lega party, called in a television interview Saturday for churches across the country to be open for Mass on Easter Sunday, saying it would be a chance to entrust the struggle against the coronavirus to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
“I support requests for those who are asking, in an orderly and compact way and with full respect for public health, to be able to go to church, even in groups of three, four or five people, for Easter Mass,” Salvini said.
My comments: Prior to the more widespread testing for the Coronavirus, people, even three Sundays ago were going to Mass en masse. Four Sundays ago, I was in a packed church of almost 1,500 people while on vacation. The following Sunday, with news of the pandemic taking hold, less than half were present, but I was present. I went to eat a local restaurant that Saturday evening, and it was packed with patrons.
By the next weekend, all things were off, Churches closed, no public Masses.
Who knows, thousand upon thousands of people contracted the cornavirus and got sick seriously so or mildly and got over it. Maybe I did too. And all of us, who survived it, not even knowing we had it, have built up a natural immunity for the next time. But now, out of panic and fear about natural processes in nature, which is an anti-ecological conversion of sorts, people won't be building up that immunity to this serious virus.
On Palm Sunday, I had my "McDonald's" Drive through Blessing with Holy Water, Benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament and handing out palms blessed at our live-streamed 10:30 AM Palm Sunday Mass. One commenter here, who uses various "handles" and thinks he is a scientist because he took some biology classes in college, who touted, dead wrongly, that the common chalice posed little or no threat to the public health of those who drink from it, one after the other, is now the most scrupulous priest on earth about staying home to prevent spreading germs and viruses. He's become agoraphobic. He thinks people, hermetically sealed in their cars, will catch or spread the virus to others driving through McDonald's drive through. It is comical if it wasn't so sad.
Keep in mind, in Georgia, people gather in grocery stores, Walmarts, drug stores, liquor stores and stores that sell guns and ammunition since these have not be shut down. Fast food and other restaurants can serve only through drive though pick up.
After our drive through on Palms Sunday, I drove by our local Kroger's grocery store. It was packed! Do you think there is real social distancing in these stores? I went to our Publix grocery store on Thursday, and was about three feet away from the check-out clerk, who wore no mask or gloves and neither was I.
And yet, this priest complains about a drive through blessing as a public health threat. So sad.
But back to John Allen's article on Italian politics and the Prime Minister using his pre-Vatican II piety to make a valid point, one has to be puzzled that post-Vatican II Catholics in Italy, both clergy and religious, take exception to his piety. Is it they have no piety as post Vatican II Catholics?
Isn't that the greater threat to both body and soul, a lack of Catholic Faith and piety? After all, Jesus came to save not just the soul but the body, not in a secular or political way here on earth, but at our personal judgement, when we pray our soul will enter heaven, possibly after a stint in purgatory and when our bodies, raised from the dust and clay of the earth, are joined to our souls in heaven at the Final Judgment.
Are the demands of the Italian prime minister just political jockeying, or does he have a valid point and why can't we let people into our churches if they keep six feet apart, wear gloves and mask and don't receive Holy Communion, except in the most sterile way possible?
What say you?
AND MY FINAL QUESTION TO THE AGORAPHOBIC HERE: Isolating ourselves from the public and the germs and viruses we normally contract, which by the way builds immunity in the human body, will this agoraphobic sheltering in place cause more harm in the future, if we don't build up a natural immunity to this virus? Will the pandemic be even greater the next coronavirus season because of the scrupulous agoraphobic mentality that is being promoted today?
18,000 people alone, in this country, have died from the normal flu, for which we have a vaccine. Hundreds of thousands become sick with mild or severe symptoms but survived. Isn't that just normal? Some people die and some don't. Isn't that the nature of things and why we need a Savior, not just for the body but for the soul unto life everlasting?
Are agoraphobic priests and bishops falling ill and dying from the virus of secularism that has weakened and destroyed their personal Catholic Faith and allowed them to acquiesce to secular mentalities?
Thus, with that backdrop, John Allen in today's Crux observes the following:
Although Italy appears to have flattened the curve of the pandemic, with projections currently suggesting that some regions may reach zero new infections by mid-April, the death toll continues to mount - 15,887 as of Sunday - and authorities insist it will be some time before a strict national lockdown can begin to be rolled back.
Despite that, polarizing Italian politician Matteo Salvini, leader of the far-right Lega party, called in a television interview Saturday for churches across the country to be open for Mass on Easter Sunday, saying it would be a chance to entrust the struggle against the coronavirus to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
“I support requests for those who are asking, in an orderly and compact way and with full respect for public health, to be able to go to church, even in groups of three, four or five people, for Easter Mass,” Salvini said.
“You can go to the tobacco shop because people couldn’t make it without cigarettes, but for many, taking care of the soul is as fundamental as the body,” he said.
“This is an appeal to the bishops to allow believers in limited numbers to go to church just like in the supermarkets, respecting distance, with masks and gloves,” Salvini said. “Easter is the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and for millions of Italians it could be an important moment of hope.”
My comments: Prior to the more widespread testing for the Coronavirus, people, even three Sundays ago were going to Mass en masse. Four Sundays ago, I was in a packed church of almost 1,500 people while on vacation. The following Sunday, with news of the pandemic taking hold, less than half were present, but I was present. I went to eat a local restaurant that Saturday evening, and it was packed with patrons.
By the next weekend, all things were off, Churches closed, no public Masses.
Who knows, thousand upon thousands of people contracted the cornavirus and got sick seriously so or mildly and got over it. Maybe I did too. And all of us, who survived it, not even knowing we had it, have built up a natural immunity for the next time. But now, out of panic and fear about natural processes in nature, which is an anti-ecological conversion of sorts, people won't be building up that immunity to this serious virus.
On Palm Sunday, I had my "McDonald's" Drive through Blessing with Holy Water, Benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament and handing out palms blessed at our live-streamed 10:30 AM Palm Sunday Mass. One commenter here, who uses various "handles" and thinks he is a scientist because he took some biology classes in college, who touted, dead wrongly, that the common chalice posed little or no threat to the public health of those who drink from it, one after the other, is now the most scrupulous priest on earth about staying home to prevent spreading germs and viruses. He's become agoraphobic. He thinks people, hermetically sealed in their cars, will catch or spread the virus to others driving through McDonald's drive through. It is comical if it wasn't so sad.
Keep in mind, in Georgia, people gather in grocery stores, Walmarts, drug stores, liquor stores and stores that sell guns and ammunition since these have not be shut down. Fast food and other restaurants can serve only through drive though pick up.
After our drive through on Palms Sunday, I drove by our local Kroger's grocery store. It was packed! Do you think there is real social distancing in these stores? I went to our Publix grocery store on Thursday, and was about three feet away from the check-out clerk, who wore no mask or gloves and neither was I.
And yet, this priest complains about a drive through blessing as a public health threat. So sad.
But back to John Allen's article on Italian politics and the Prime Minister using his pre-Vatican II piety to make a valid point, one has to be puzzled that post-Vatican II Catholics in Italy, both clergy and religious, take exception to his piety. Is it they have no piety as post Vatican II Catholics?
Isn't that the greater threat to both body and soul, a lack of Catholic Faith and piety? After all, Jesus came to save not just the soul but the body, not in a secular or political way here on earth, but at our personal judgement, when we pray our soul will enter heaven, possibly after a stint in purgatory and when our bodies, raised from the dust and clay of the earth, are joined to our souls in heaven at the Final Judgment.
Are the demands of the Italian prime minister just political jockeying, or does he have a valid point and why can't we let people into our churches if they keep six feet apart, wear gloves and mask and don't receive Holy Communion, except in the most sterile way possible?
What say you?
AND MY FINAL QUESTION TO THE AGORAPHOBIC HERE: Isolating ourselves from the public and the germs and viruses we normally contract, which by the way builds immunity in the human body, will this agoraphobic sheltering in place cause more harm in the future, if we don't build up a natural immunity to this virus? Will the pandemic be even greater the next coronavirus season because of the scrupulous agoraphobic mentality that is being promoted today?
18,000 people alone, in this country, have died from the normal flu, for which we have a vaccine. Hundreds of thousands become sick with mild or severe symptoms but survived. Isn't that just normal? Some people die and some don't. Isn't that the nature of things and why we need a Savior, not just for the body but for the soul unto life everlasting?
Are agoraphobic priests and bishops falling ill and dying from the virus of secularism that has weakened and destroyed their personal Catholic Faith and allowed them to acquiesce to secular mentalities?
33 comments:
I feel like our priests are doing the best they can given the state of the local ordinances that are in place. While I am on the fence about whether this situation is overblown, we are obliged to follow a just law from the secular authorities, and this law seems to be just. Here's what is happening at our chapel for Holy Week, which will surely be one to remember!
Confessions Only (5 people every 10 minutes) - Monday 7-8, Tuesday 7-8, Saturday 2-4
Confession and Communions (5 people every 10 minutes) - Wednesday 2-6, Thursday 2-5, Friday 10-2
Communions Only (10 people every 10 minutes) - Easter Sunday 7-11
"One commenter here, who uses various "handles" and thinks he is a scientist because he took some biology classes in college, who touted, dead wrongly, that the common chalice posed little or no threat to the public health of those who drink from it, one after the other, is now the most scrupulous priest on earth about staying home to prevent spreading germs and viruses. He's become agoraphobic. He thinks people, hermetically sealed in their cars, will catch or spread the virus to others driving through McDonald's drive through. It is comical if it wasn't so sad."
Since you are referring to me, let me respond.
I do not think I am a scientist because I took "some biology classes in college." Biology was my major, as you know, and I continued studies in biology in graduate school. I have continued to read scientific materials, mainly histories of science, but also a few journal studies in areas that are of particular interest to me.
Yes, the studies show that use of the common cup poses little danger. There is greater danger from other sources, such as the many hand on hymnals mass after mass on the weekends, door knobs and handles, etc.
I am not scrupulous about staying home, nor am I agoraphobic. I go to the store infrequently, as needed.
What I am not doing in that regard is encouraging people to leave their homes to participate in "Drive-By" Benediction and blessings with holy water. I do not have folks congregating, as you do, on sidewalks to hand out palms. If I use a pair of gloves, I discard them after that one use. (One of the things I learned about in the many labs courses I took as as I earned by bachelor's degree in biology, is a thing called Cross Contamination. You should read up on it.)
People are not hermetically sealed in cars. You obviously don't know what that means so for your information, such a seal means airtight - preventing the passage of air, oxygen, or other gasses. Cars with open windows, people reaching out and in, air conditioners blowing, etc., are not hermetically sealed. Seems few more lab courses would have helped your understanding of disease vectors, among many other things.
One of the things you most certainly know little or nothing about is herd immunity. That is what you are suggesting we need and should seek right in the middle of a pandemic. But, Allan, that's not how her immunity works. See my next post for SCIENTIFIC information about herd immunity.
SO, you can keep ranting about me, about things you know little or nothing of, and you can keep allowing your own need for self-aggrandizement to rule your life and your blog posts.
I hope it all works out for you and the rest of us in the end.
What Is Herd Immunity and Could It Help Prevent COVID-19? (HealthLine.com)
There are several reasons why herd immunity isn’t the answer to stopping the spread of the new coronavirus:
1. There isn’t yet a vaccine for SARS-CoV-2. Vaccinations are the safest way to practice herd immunity in a population.
2. The research for antivirals and other medications to treat COVID-19 is ongoing.
3. Scientists don’t know if you can contract SARS-CoV-2 and develop COVID-19 more than once.
4. People who contract SARS-CoV-2 and develop COVID-19 can experience serious side effects. Severe cases can lead to death.
5. Doctors don’t yet know exactly why some people who contract SARS-CoV-2 develop severe COVID-19, while others do not.
6. Vulnerable members of society, such as older adults and people with some chronic health conditions, could get very sick if they’re exposed to this virus.
7. Otherwise healthy and younger people may become very ill with COVID-19.
8. Hospitals and healthcare systems may be overburdened if many people develop COVID-19 at the same time.
Herd immunity isn’t the answer to stopping the spread of SARS-CoV-2, the new coronavirus that causes COVID-19. Once a vaccine is developed for this virus, establishing herd immunity is one way to help protect people in the community who are vulnerable or have low functioning immune systems.
“...this priest complains about a drive through blessing as a public health threat. So sad.”
Yes, it and he are sad. I’ve “known” him since he was a transitional deacon many years ago. He always made a show of his “I am so with it! Aren’t I cool and ‘with? And I am en expert on everything because I’m smarter and better-read than you.” Sigh...we pray for him.
Father, you are doing the best you know how to help your parishioners near and followers far on their spiritual journey to heaven. Be not afraid. Psalm 91
“3 Surely he will save you
from the fowler’s snare
and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.”
“It” “an” Sorry, I didn’t check carefully.
Mike, thanks for the supporting evidence about your virus 🦠phobia treatises. Now, use that scrupulosity to let us know how many particles of the host are sprayed when fractured and how many remain on communicant’s hands and how many on the floor. After all you are a doctor of scrupulosity too. I let you diagnose Marc’s experiences in his SSPX parish as it concerns confessions vis a vis grocery line check outs in gun stores.
Bee here:
There are a couple of reasons I can see that make sense about why we should be staying out of contact with others as much as we can. One is so we don't overwhelm the health system, so that we minimize the situation where doctors must make a decision about who gets the available ICU beds and ventilators. The fewer serious cases there are at any one time the fewer deaths there will be. A second reason is to buy time to find treatments that are safe and effective.
I think most of us are going to get it within this next year, and pray God it will be a mild version. There is a question yet about how much immunity comes with having it, and how long the immunity lasts. Early reports from China said the immunity is short-lived, maybe only a few months, and there were some reports of re-infection within weeks of getting it, but since information out of China isn't always reliable, it's best to wait until scientists from other countries report on it.
One time the poster who scoffed at the idea that serious illness could be gotten from the common cup at Communion said something on the order of, "If all illnesses could be easily passed to each other, we would all be dead." I recognize the truth of this statement. We do have an immune system that functions to protect us. But we can never know if we in particular have immunity to a germ we might pick up from a common cup. And just like in this pandemic, why risk it?
In this pandemic we know in general we are very susceptible to getting it, knowing we most likely don't have an immunity to it. So some caution does make sense until our medical system can ramp up to manage the numbers and treat the severity. But as Fr. McD points out, having a milder case and developing an immunity is to our advantage.
My brother and his wife, who are in their 70's and do have some underlying conditions, have chosen to not have contact with anyone, and are holed up in their house. Their granddaughter picks up groceries for them and leaves the bags on the front porch. They sanitize everything before bringing it in. Even the mail. Yet even this level of precaution is not a guarantee they won't contract the disease, but each person has to assess their own situation and act as they deem reasonable.
I think the offering of a drive through blessing and the OPTION to take palms was a brilliant solution to the need to mitigate contact and reduce the spread of the illness, yet "celebrate" Palm Sunday in some fashion. I wish our parish had been able to offer that.
God bless.
Bee
Confession is more necessary than groceries. But our chapel is following basically the same guidelines that the local grocers are: People are disinfecting the church every 10 minutes. And we have to sign up in advance for our allotted time so that there aren't more than 5 people (plus the priests) in the Church at a time.
At a certain point, there is a breakdown of logic in all of this social distancing stuff, though. As soon as I encounter one other person, I'm encountering everyone that person has encountered and so on. So there is no way to completely isolate. All we can ever do is what we prioritize for ourselves as being important: for some, they will prioritize getting a blessed palm, even with the slight risks associated therewith. Others will stay home. Either decision is fine.
Allan, here's where your lack of any significant background in science gets you into trouble.
You came across this notion of "Herd Immunity." "A HA!" you thought, "Here's a concept that supports my preconceived (there's one of the key concepts) notion that we all should be out gathering in groups, mingling with others so that we can build up immunity."
The first error is, scientists don't jump on the data bandwagon with the first notion they come across that supports their preconceived (!) hypothesis. What they are looking for - equally - is positive evidence that supports their hypothesis, and negative evidence that does not support their hypothesis. (Negative evidence is produced when any given theory by necessity predicts something specific which, upon closer inspection, fails to materialize.)
The second error you made is that you didn't go beyond what you hypothesized was positive evidence. You stopped right there, thinking wrongly that your quest for good solid information was complete.
The third error is your unwillingness to change your position when evidence that does not support your hypothesis is presented. In this case, you've decided to jump to particles from the host.
You can pooh-pooh a person's background in science as much as you want. But when you and Anonymous 9:41 need a doctor or a medication or you want better gas mileage in your car or clearer reception on your TV, you'll be relying on scientists, someone better read, like it or not.
The centurion’s servant was not present and was healed by the faith of the Centurion alone. The miserable Dismas had no physical contact and was saved by his faith. Of those events we are certain. Our best understanding of the spread of this disease is still uncertain enough that the best precautions carry a significant risk of death. With the most sincere Charity I point out out to the Italian politician that the attitude he displays may account for the disproportionate numbers of dead Italy has suffered and risks dishonoring our Church. Since we know that we can have an effective Communion and saving Grace while also reducing the chance of causing someone else’s death to near zero I reluctantly recommend staying home until the numbers of infected are decreasing for at least a week or two.
Mike, you should be an expert in your chosen vocation in life, which isn't a scientist, it is a Catholic priest who has to make some heroic decisions at times and call others to do the same, regardless of the physical threat to them--that is called martyrdom. Yes, save your hide in the eyes of the world, but lose your soul in the process. My officers in the army in my parish would laugh at such cowardice in the face of an enemy real or perceived. They call their men, as does our country, to sacrifice their lives in battle for their country. They are heroic. We need the same heroism in our Catholic Faith today, but using the gear and protection available know that most of it won't save us, unless we cower before the enemy.
Finally, what I lack in book knowledge, I make up in commonsense, something you seem to lack. But I am not a doctor of commonsense either.
Fr McD. You are are correct on several points. Of particular interest are: immunity, and sad as there are, deaths.
We should put these death numbers attributed to the novel coronavirus in perspective. Every year in USA we deal with an average 170,000 fatalities on the roads. Some years are better than others, but 15,000-30,000 dying because of the flu is typical in USA, and that is with vaccines usually given to the most vulnerable. We have no vaccine for the novel SARS-CoV-2, and, as a coronavirus, there probably will not be. Every year there are around 100 coronaviruses infecting the general population, but only a handful are of significance because of their higher morbidity, and this novel virus is one of them, although not more dangerous than the other in the handful. What makes this virus so peculiar is that it is so mild yet has a high binding ability to cells. Being mild, most people will present mild if any symptoms at all so it can be very virulent when people do not even know they have it, more likely to carelessly pass it on. But because of its binding, people with immune compromised systems will likely have a problem fighting it off. It drains them further and their serious underlying health conditions worsen, eventually killing them. I would like to know how many actually die from the virus itself, and how many from the effects of the novel virus on their compromised immune systems, effects that could also have been produced by other viruses including influenza. What makes this whole thing unscientific is that this will not be known. Just a few days ago, the CDC issued a directive that if the novel virus is detected in a deceased, then the cause of death is to be listed as COVID-19. That breaks a fundamental rule of modern science, viz., that correlation does not equal causation. Moreover, like most other coronaviruses, there are probably as many asymptomatic as symptomatic cases if not more for this novel virus, which means these so-called death rates themselves should be at least halved since they only represent a denominator based on symptomatic cases. The best way to find out the current rate of infection in the general population, assuming the tests are accurate, and there is some concern over their false positives, is to randomly test the entire population, and that is not being done.
As for immunity, an interesting property of this novel virus is that its RNA is fairly stable, meaning that it will not mutate quickly like influenza viruses do. In one sense that is bad since the form of this novel virus will be with us for some time, making efforts at eradicating it next to impossible with or without lock downs or quarantines in view of its virulence. On the other hand, the immunity that people develop against the virus will be more long lasting. As of writing, two European countries are trying to some extent the immunity approach, one of them Sweden, which is to protect as best as possible (sic) the vulnerable population (which should always be done anyways), and, using common sense distancing measures, let the novel virus slowly continue its natural course in the general population where 95-98% will exhibit mild symptoms if any at all. Within a short time, most of this healthy population will have developed a natural immunity. Otherwise, if the population does not develop an immunity, which is what lock downs promote, the virus will be back again as soon as lock downs are lifted, over and over..... are we expected to do the lock down dance for the next few years?
Allan - There you go again. When presented with evidence that contradicts your position, you switch topics.
Now it's martyrdom. You publicize your claim to be heroic and to be a martyr. "Look at me, everyone! See how macho I am, sacrificing for my people!" Not very pretty.
People during the plagues and pestilences of the past went into the trenches because they were ignorant. They didn't know that if they stopped going out, if they cleaned the house, if they didn't drink water from a certain well in a certain part of London, they'd avoid illness or flatten the curve. On that last idea, read "The Ghost Map - The Story of London's Most Terrifying Epidemic." It's the true story of how a man of science (!), a doctor, John Snow, who was better read than his stodgy counterparts in medicine, and a member of the clergy, the local Anglican curate, Henry Whitehead, found the real cause for cholera and, through that knowledge, managed to bring the epidemic under control.
Mercifully, we know better now, thanks to scientists and to people who are better-read than others.
On another subject, the High Court of Australia later today will hand down it's ruling on Cardinal George Pell's appeal.
And, Allan, you've kind of painted yourself into a Col. Nathan Jessup ("A Few Good Men") corner here.
On the one hand, you claim that by following the CDC guidelines you are putting no one, including yourself, at risk. Surely no good pastor would encourage people to engage in life-threatening activity. I wouldn't, you wouldn't.
But on the other hand, you claim that by holding your drive-by Benediction and sprinkling, you are flying into the face of the enemy, exhibiting, with your "officers," not cowardice, but maytyr-like bravery. You and they are exhibiting heroic, sacrificial altruism, by grabbing the bull by the horns and running, nay, racing into the maw of all that is terrifying and dangerous.
But, as Lt. Daniel Kaffee notes in the movie, you can't have both.
"Then why two orders, Colonel?"
..."You honor, I'd like to ask for a recess."
FRMJK, I have a much more extensive science background than you presume. I have an undergrad science degree, and a medical degree. I worked in Physiology research for 3 years before making the decision to return to medical school. Just so you know.
Anonymous 9:41
Frmjk, I ‘ve decided to repent from following your example of referring to priests by first name rather than asking first if you can on a public blog. Mea culpa. But, you are now, Father, becoming hysterical. Save it for the common chalice.
Oh, and just a side-note, FRMJK, I spent a year working in an Infectious Disease clinic and made rounds every morning on hospitalized ID patients. I would guess that I’m better-read on medical issues, but that’s just guessing of course.
You, sir, would better serve God with the time you have left on earth practicing and modeling virtuous behaviors rather than your constant sniping at FRAJM. Blessings, Pater.
Anon 9:41
Anonymous 9:41, as you know from your experience with this person, having more knowledge about a subject than he does will not stop him from acting like he knows more than you do. I'm reminded of a discussion on this blog many years ago when he was lecturing a Constitutional law professor about the Constitution...
Would that have been at the Medical College of Georgia, need I ask?
That would be the one, Father.
May God bless us all in the ongoing struggle to maintain health, physical, mental and most important, spiritual.
Interesting comments from Fr Kavanaugh. Cholera was endemic in the east, but did not spread to Europe (and the eastern seaboard of the USA) until the 19th century. The people most affected were the poor who lived in squalid overcrowded 'rookeries'. This would fit the pattern of both an airborne infection (which most of the medical profession thought it was) and a waterborne infection (which it actually was, as John Snow was able to demonstrate).
COVID-19 is an airborne infection but the present-day medical and scientific establishment is in reality as much in the dark about it as were their Victorian predecessors when confronted with the cholera morbus. They can't prevent it, and their ignorance also extends to the best methods to employ in order to control it. They have to rely on inherently unreliable modelling systems.
Neil Ferguson, an epidemiologist at Imperial College London, has been advising the British government but even he has had to drastically downscale his original predictions. Meanwhile, studies by Oxford University have thrown serious doubt on ICL's findings.
The idea that 'we know better now' applies to many things relating to the natural world, but it should not be allowed to lead us into complacent and hubristic notions of superiority, or to regard scientists as somehow infallible.
I am glad Kavanaugh is passionate about something, but based on the opinions he expresses here, it is not the Catholic Faith or the salvation of souls he is passionate about.
Now why don't you wonder over to the hospital or nursing home and anoint the sick and dying?
I hate to always sound like an admirer of John Nolan, but his second second paragraph concluding with the statement about unreliable models struck me as important. The logical extension of a framework of knowledge is helpful only so far as that framework remains valid. For models involving organisms the framework is challenged almost right away because the organisms change either through their nature as with the virus, or also because of their behavior as with humans. The lab I managed as an undergraduate had a sign on the wall that read, “if you control the environment for heat, food, light, moisture, and oxygen the organisms will do as they damn well please anyway.” Getting the exact result and repeating it reliably was a point of pride. But accomplishing it demonstrated for me how limited our knowledge framework is.
Anon 9:41 - Your background puts you in a good position, then, to correct Fr. McDonald's inadequate appreciation of how science works.
I'm sure, as a person of science, you seek out similarly situated folks when you need answers from science. You do not seek out or, I hope, listen to people with little or no such background. You would, as I would, look for people who are well-read.
As long as Fr. McDonald posts comments that reveal a serious misunderstanding of science, as long as he makes unsupported claims, as long as he belittles people like you who have SERIOUS credentials, I will respond.
Goodness is the only investment that never fails.
—Henry David Thoreau
Trying for a little goodness here, rather my usual knee-jerk response (that never works well anyway—just ask my spouse): We are in a tough time, and desperate times call for desperate measures, yes? We need to try harder than ever before to let our better selves shine through. And it is Holy Week after all.
Kavanaugh,
And you have a serious misunderstanding of your role as a priest. We don't give a fig about your opinions on scientific matters. As I recall you are a staunch defender of sharing a common chalice. In light of the current crisis your views on that are all wet. In contrast, Father McDonald appears dedicated to reviving and rekindling of the Catholic Faith. Priests like you should be taking lessons from him. By the way, do you ever ponder the baptisms that weren't because of YOUR party's obsession with killing the unborn?
1) "Are the demands of the Italian prime minister just political jockeying" Yes it is. With all of the funerals those priests had to preside over, I doubt they are willing to pack their churches at some politicians whim.
2)"Isolating ourselves from the public and the germs and viruses we normally contract, which by the way builds immunity in the human body, will this agoraphobic sheltering in place cause more harm in the future, if we don't build up a natural immunity to this virus?" Look at New York today. The hospitals are at over capacity, dead bodies are being stored in refrigerated trucks, the Navy had to send a hospital ship, a convention center was turned into an emergency hospital, additional emergency hospitals were set up in the park, and the governor of that state is begging for emergency medical supplies and staff to relieve the overburdened health care practitioners. That is all after isolation and social distancing. How do you think it would work if they just let the virus run its course?
There is absolutely no reason why Fr Kavanaugh should not give us the benefit of his scientific background. Opinions based on acquired knowledge are not infallible, but are worth more than those which lack any evidential underpinning.
The mistake a lot of people make is to assume that 'scientific' opinion must be treated as fact. The acknowledged 'father of forensic pathology' was Sir Bernard Spilsbury (1877-1947). He appeared as an expert witness for the Crown in over 200 murder cases. His courtroom demeanour of complete self-confidence and dogmatic certainty convinced juries that he must be right, irrespective of other evidence. In many cases he was indeed right, but he was criticized in his lifetime and particularly since his suicide in 1947 for his methodology which led to miscarriages of justice.
A recent appraisal claims he sent at least two innocent men to the gallows. By all means treat expert opinion with respect, but don't rely on it unconditionally.
Anonymous,
What is strange about New York is that there is a Naval Ship in the harbor dispatched by President Trump which can treat up to 1,000 people but I read yesterday that only about 20 victims have been taken there.
The authorities changed plans in New York, making the USNS Comfort unnecessary.
The Javits Center was opened to accept COVID-19 patients so they did not have to go to area hospitals.
I posted this in another thread today, but am adding it here in yesterday’s post as well:
Ok, I’m a little less angry than I was earlier.
Folks, I worked years in Internal Medicine, with a year in Infectious Disease when HIV was a “novel” virus AND no hope of a cure for fulminant AIDS. My department worked closely with Dr. Fauci when he was head of the CDC in Atlanta, next door to us.
I can offer the following in good conscience: in the early stage of a novel virus, the best we have is reasoned conjecture, crisis-gathering of evolving ongoing data, and consequent trial-and error suppositions/recommendations by hardworking scientists. Then, IN HINDSIGHT, have better vision with a fuller picture of cause, effect, prevention tactics, treatment options and future prognosis. Science never has been or ever will be perfect. Hypotheses are regularly disproven.
Panic never serves ANY good purpose. There is a pandemic right now of panic. This novel virus is worse than any we’ve had in 100 years. I understand this—most of my AIDS patients were terrified and panic was common. In fact, the most commonly prescribed medication then was an anti-anxiety drug while we closely monitored CD4 counts to titrate what meds we had available (the antiretrovirals were not yet known). Most of our patients died.
As yet, we have no blood test to monitor for progression of COVID19, let alone confirmed treatment medications. We can only follow and treat symptoms once a victim shows an initial positive Dx test.
Again, panic NEVER serves any good purpose. Studies have shown that people who pray, people who stay positive have the best success in fighting deadly cancers. Right now, we need all the positive support we can get. We need prayer. Our priests are our spiritual doctors in our battlefield churches. Please, holy priests, we are depending on you. Help us fight this war; do not fight each other.
We WILL get there; we will win this war. God bless.
Anon 9:14
John Nolan,
I am more interested in what Kavanaugh is doing in the present crisis AS A PRIEST to help his flock. He weighs in on almost every subject other than the one he was trained and ordained to pursue. The essential problem in the Catholic Church today is that the clergy is ignoring its essential role as spiritual men and assuming roles they have neither the training nor competence to weigh in upon. We have jackasses in the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops who lecture the laity on global warming, economics (while grossly underpaying their own workers while railing at business entities), and how a nation should handle its immigration issues rather than saving souls. The clergy really needs to focus on its historic mission. With very few exceptions, they are failing miserably in that regard. Otherwise, why are churches emptier and emptier as each year passes?
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