Monday, August 20, 2018

TWO QUOTES OF THE DAY!

UPDATED!

This is what sensum  fidei is and why we need it!

Writer Sohrab Ahmari write in the New York Post:

 “These days there is a lot of talk of ‘mercy’ and ‘accompaniment’ in the Roman Church. But these outrages call for a different kind of spirit: the spirit of judgment, the fiery spirit of Saint Paul, who raged against sexual immorality in the early Church in his epistles and consigned those who defiled the people of God to fates worse than excommunication. For mercy without truth and penance is just PR.”

This from a convert of mine whose first name is Marc:


Call me a crazy lay person, but it seems to me the problem isn't clericalism so much as priests raping children and then bishops covering it. It is remarkable that Francis essentially blames the laity for their priests raping children. And we need to convert our activity? I don't know about the other lay people here, but I've been staunchly against priests raping children this whole time -- no conversion needed here. It would seem that the priests should convert from child rapists to non-rapists. And maybe the bishops who cover up for them should be jailed. 

59 comments:

ByzRC said...

The quote provided by Marc really resonates. All this talk about prayer and repentance is fine if EVERYONE is committed to praying and repenting. Certainly, we can all pray and fast for the very good reasons mentioned by Pope Francis and Bishop Morlino however, if there isn't institutional change to advance the position of good over evil on the spiritual battlefield, I'm afraid it is going to be a very difficult war to win.

Anonymous said...

Yep, Marc, I couldn’t agree more! We are all mad as all hell and would love to see a few bishops put in jail.
I personally would have wanted that eons ago. Bernard Law would have been a good start in 2002. But nearly every diocese has indulged in cover-up over the past 60 years—more transparency needed from ALL of them. Pennsylvania AG is the model; now we need 50 more reports including Washington DC.
Only the truth can set us free.

TJM said...

We need St. John Chrysostom and not Percy Dovetonsils.

Tom Makin said...

Amen, Amen. HFPF's statement today is really nothing. To paraphrase...Action talks, BS walks. I believe it is safe to assume that by and large the results of the PA Grand Jury findings are largely fact. That being the case, what I want to see is swift Vatican justice. Yes, the "Imperial Church", in the name of HFPF, needs to drop the hammer on the "Company Men" led by Donald Wuerl. More than one significant example needs to be made. "Shock and Awe" needs to carry the day here. Enough nonsensical platitudes from the likes of DiNardo. Drop the hammer Holy Father and drop it quick. Summon these clowns to Rome and tell them to pack lightly. They wont be needing any of the symbols of power they hold so dear. A simple change of civilian clothes will be sufficient for their coach flights home. I've had it!! Oh and another suggestion....send His Eminence Raymond Cardinal Burke back home and let him clean house.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Pope Francis did not blame the laity. His words are addressed to the People of God. That's all of us. Priests abused children. Bishops failed to act wisely and prudently when they were made aware of these sins/crimes. But the "problem" belongs to all of us, as does the solution.

"You" have to fix "your" problem won't work. We all, clergy and laity, must grow in holiness through prayer, most especially the celebration of the Eucharist, and through the celebration of the other Sacraments, especially Reconciliation. We

TJM said...

Roger “dodger” Mahoney belongs in the slammer!!

Anonymous said...

Fr., you baptized two of our children over 20 years ago. You would not remember us, I’m sure. But we surely remember you! I’m so sorry you good prelates are in this mess, but I feel sure God is using you for good somehow in this horrible mess. None of us wishes harm to good faithful priests. We are totally committed to supporting you and our Church. Just thought you might want to hear that.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

A@11:20pm, thank you for your kind comments at this time and God bless your family.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Frmjk, the laity and clergy telling bishops of their anger and rage and feelings of betrayal leading to a loss of faith is important. And what most of us on this blog want the celebrations of the Sacraments especially the Mass to be Holy, reverent and God centered precisely to grow in holiness. I told my congregation on Sunday that I could only speak for myself, but when I went to Mass as a layman, I went to Mass not for the priest, or his homily, or the congregation or the music, I went to encounter God in a vertical way. The horizontal way was after Mass at social events and in my neighborhood and work place.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Allan, well and good. Bit that has nothing to do with Marc's comment or my response.

Marc said...

We, the laity, are trying to grow in holiness despite many of you, the priests, being rapists. The former has a categorically different thing to work on than the latter. My problem is not that priests rape children, so that is not my problem to work on.

If a priest raped one of my children, I can tell you exactly what the solution would be—one less priest in the world. Problem solved.

Anonymous said...

Of interest to some on this site (probably not MT as it implies bishops are responsible for their actions)

https://youtu.be/wztAjLwlLwo

Dan said...

"But the "problem" belongs to all of us, as does the solution."

And EXACTLY what the hell can the laity do about the problem?

Dan said...

The laity complain about homosexuals, we "haters and homophobes" and get Fr. Martin making an entire "priestly" career out of "building bridges."

We with hold money and of course THAT'S frowned upon.

We skip a mass in disgust and get told to go to confession before receiving communion - even though not a damn one of you speak out against the German bishops invitation to communion by those who don't even believe enough to convert! Is conversion too difficult now? Did I miss something?

Very reasonable requests have been made for SOME clarity from Francis... but no, he's allowed to ignore... and none of the clergy say ENOUGH...

So again I ask.. what are the laity supposed to do?

Anonymous said...

Dan, why is it up to a "damn" one of us - clergy- to speak up against what you see as a threat to the faith from the German bishops? And what possible good will come from a sermon by a priest in Zwingle, Iowa, on this matter?

Not 1 out of 1000 Catholics in this country knows anything about German bishops. Make that 1 out of 10,000. And i'm supposed to preach to them about a possible threat to the faith by the Germans? Get real.

So keep your money in your pockets. Don't give a dime to ANY church or organization that does not do precisely what you want it to do precisely when you want it.

TJM said...

Kavanaugh,

LOL - in the real world, what you said is referred to as "blaming the victim!" and the very epitome of clericalism.

Anonymous said...

Dan, some clergy DO say enough. For starters, just in the past two days:
http://www.courageouspriest.com/finally-faithful-apology-pulpit
http://frmartinfox.blogspot.com/2018/08/church-scandal-laity-it-is-time-for-you.html

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Fr. Kavanaugh, your comments reflect what a good company man you are: deflect blame away from the executives; minimize the problem; put on a posture of concern but admit no wrongdoing; if possible, generalize the blame to dilute it...and so on. The whole goal: protect the brand. Protect management.

I think you may be ready for a promotion!

God bless.
Bee

Dan said...

And I wonder whose fault it is that only 1 out of 1000 Catholics know their faith? Hmmmm....

Dan said...

The church has gone from martyrs to garters. From Fulton Sheen to Stuart Smalley. It is NOT the fault of the laity. It is what has been encouraged and selected for the seminaries. Correct that only 1 in 1000 know their faith. So TEACH it!

TJM said...

Bee,

Right on!

Marc said...

"So keep your money in your pockets. Don't give a dime to ANY church or organization that does not do precisely what you want it to do precisely when you want it."

Why would anyone give money to an organization that doesn't do precisely what one wants it to do. I haven't given money to the any diocese or Rome in at least 3 years. The SSPX and its associated religious communities get my money -- because they do precisely what I want them to do.

I'm certainly not going to give money to my diocese so they can support the Novus Ordo nonsense that I despise and pay settlements for their rapist priests. The same goes for Rome. If you're giving your money to Francis, there's something wrong with you.

Gene said...

I am currently giving my money to the Methodist Church and hearing God's Word preached and his name praised in song and prayer every Sunday morning. The only Rome they have any interest in is, perhaps, Rome, Georgia if there are Methodists there.

ByzRC said...

Fr. MJK -

Respectfully, your words, while having that "sound" that is appropriate when responding to a tragedy, might not result in NET positive change as the framework that allowed all this to happen remains in place. That said, I wholly agree that a call to holiness is both desirable and welcomed however, it seems that here, systemic change needs to accompany spiritual reinforcement.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

I shop shop at Kroger because they won't hire my nephew. They don't do precis3ly what I want them to do. So, I'll drive the 41 extra miles rob the nearest supermarket.

Makes no sense.

I won't pay taxes because the Congress refuses to start impeachment proceedings against Trump. I am not getting precisely what I want when I want it.

Makes no sense.

As Abraham Heschel said, "Few are guilty, all are responsinle." Did the average Egyptian bear the guilt of the mistreatment of the Hebrew slaves? No. Yet, they suffered the fate of the death of their firstborn since they, collectively, bore the responsibility.

Knowing what a small number of German bishops may have proposed regarding the reception of communion isn't "knowing their faith."

Dan said...

"Knowing what a small number of German bishops may have proposed regarding the reception of communion isn't "knowing their faith.""

No. But the silence of Francis and the other heiarchy in the face of open and public disobedience to the CDF, speaks very loudly of the faith of those whours are silent.

Marc said...

I fail to see how I am responsible for priests raping children. I bear literally zero responsibility for that, actually. Will I suffer the same fate as a priest-rapist? I sure won't -- they'll go to hell for being child rapists; whereas, if I go to hell, it'll be for something else since I'm not a child rapist.

I don't think it's too much to ask for priests to stop raping children. It's interesting to me that Mike wants to distill the blame, though. Also interesting that shopping at Kroger and impeaching Trump are the equivalent of child rape to this guy. He never fails to amaze!

TJM said...

Kavanaugh,


But you vote Dem even though they have the blood of millions of the unborn on their hands AND have no problem with PP selling their body parts. You have very strange values. I wouldn't go to your Church because you DEFINITELY won't do what Christ and His Church requires

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

marc, I would like to know how transparent SSPX bishops are with their child raping priests. Has there been a grand jury investigation going back all decades of the SSPX as well as how Archbishop Lefebrev dealt with them even prior to his schismatic act?

Finally do you pray for the proper repentance of these rapists, and after the appropriate penance and civil punishments and through the Sacrament of Penance and any indulgences they may properly receive, do you believe God will forgive them and welcome to heaven, where any and all of their victims in heaven will embrace them in love? This is the ultimate scandal of the Cross, no?

Marc said...

Fr. McDonald, one of our parish priests was named in the Grand Jury proceedings. (He was a Novus Ordo priest in the northeast prior to converting to Catholicism). Sunday’s sermon was about that situation. He was immediately moved from our parish. (Although, I harbor no doubts as to his innocence.). So, the answer is that the SSPX is very transparent.

And the bishops of the SSPX don’t make decisions: the superiors do. In this instance, the district superior.

Will God forgive rapist priests? Perhaps.

Anonymous said...

Marc, I know you are a good man. But we all really do bear responsibility in the long run. Have we prayed and fasted enough? Have we offered up personal suffering enough? Have we taken on a priest for a holy hour? I haven’t even begun to offer up enough...have you?

Marc said...

Well, Anonymous, my resources aren’t unlimited. I am part of the prayer crusade for priests so I pray for priests everyday in general and for a specific priest to whom I’m assigned to pray and sacrifice. I am also obligated to do a holy hour for priests every first Thursday. Every year our parish offers a triduum of masses for our priests, to which I contribute. I also have masses said for priests, and I pray for them at every mass at which I assist.

Is that enough? I suppose in the scheme of life, it isn’t, but again, my time isn’t unlimited. Within my state of life with as a husband, worker and father of 2 living children under age 3, I feel like I’m doing what I can for priests.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Marc, bishops have been transparent with new cases since 2002. I can’t answer for religious superiors. My question to you would be over the scope of the years since SSPX was founded and that means before 2002 as I suspect SSPX is modeling their current response after the 2002 Charter.

Marc said...

I don’t know what the 2002 charter is that you’re talking about. I don’t really believe that bishops have been transparent since 2002.

Anyway, I’m not aware of a history of abuse by SSPX priests, so I don’t know how they’re handled. I only know of the one example I’ve given, which is based on an allegation that is many years old. The transparency was laudable, in my opinion. Of course, everyone is rallying in support of a beloved priest whom we’ve now lost, which is assuredly an injustice.

If an SSPX priest were to abuse a child, he should be punished severely: even more severely than a Novus Ordo priest. “To whom more is given, more is expected.” At this point, though, I have no reason to doubt the Society’s handling of these cases.

Gene said...

Anon @ 8:35...we do not all bear responsibility for Priests who want to play pink train in the tummy tunnel. That is a stretch. Sin is sin, the responsibility of the individual who commits the sin. The rest is theological gobbledy gook.

DJR said...

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said... "Marc, bishops have been transparent with new cases since 2002."

Pipeline of homosexuals being imported into U.S. seminaries from Colombia revealed. Investigation begun in 2012. Father John Lavers took part.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/episcopal-sodomy-gay-seminarian-pipeline

Anonymous said...

https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/04/05/report-charges-cover-traditionalist-society/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/05/catholic-sspx-resistance-uk-harbours-clergy-accused-sexual-abuse-richard-williamson

https://novusordowatch.org/2017/09/sspx-school-sexual-perversion-policy/

Marc said...

Thank you, Anonymous. I'm aware of those allegations.

The SSPX resistance is not the SSPX, so your Guardian article is irrelevant.

That there has been no follow-up to the "report" in your first article tends to me to indicate the falsity of the report.

I'm not sure you actually read that Novus Ordo Watch article you linked, but it doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about here.

TJM said...

Kavanaugh at 8:35,

Man you are getting desperate. Why post stories about the SSPX? I guess you could have posted stories about Anglicans too!

We are concerned about the American Catholic Church

Anonymous said...

TJM: "Why post stories about the SSPX?"

Marc: "Anyway, I’m not aware of a history of abuse by SSPX priests, so I don’t know how they’re handled."

That's why.

Marc said...

And yet, the stories you posted didn't provide any information. So I know as much now as I did before googled it.

TJM said...

Marc,

Kavanaugh aka the Anonymous doesn't care about no stinking facts!!

Anonymous said...

I stood up for the Church despite being a victim of child rape; scout masters; not priests nor brothers.
Gene has fled to the Methodists ? Can
any person judge that.
I am not fleeing to a monastery .. .after prayer and fasting I will decide then...

Anonymous said...

Stories of abuse by SSPX priests with no information about how the abusers were disciplined.

Maybe they were sent away for treatment and returned to ministry. Maybe they were moved to a new assignment. Maybe they reached a settlement with the families of the abused.

Sound familiar?

Marc said...

But those aren't stories of abuse by SSPX. One of the three stories posted is a singular "report" of an allegation about which there has been no further information. From that story, it isn't clear that there are actual "abusers" to discipline.

The other two stories are not about the SSPX and not about priestly abuse, respectively.

Anonymous said...

Mastermind for your average Catholic:

Special subject: The bloody obvious.

Question 1:

Though sin has always been around since mankind crawled out of the slime....
And since mankind has walked upright, sexual sins have always existed....

In what seed bed would sexual deviants most likely NOT grow:

1. A traditional and or Latin Mass Catholic Order?

Or

2. A 1970s semenary where often good, holy young men were unwelcome, mocked and often rejected on grounds that were bullshit.......especially those who for eg prayed the rosary, accepted and supported HV 1968, and even dared believe in God as Father Son and Holy Ghost (but not mother) and the Resurrection as a real historical event....?

Or

3. A 1970s and 1980s semenary where the 2 big mortal sins were to be against women priests and to not agree that sodomy was as wonderful, acceptable and even loving.... as married sexual love between a man and woman, and open to new life?

Ummmm ? Possibly ummmm? 1. might be right ?

PS: Just how damned stupid do they think the average orthodox, believing Catholic layperson is ??!!

Terry Curtin.

Anonymous said...

Mastermind for your average Catholic:

Special subject: The bloody obvious.

Question 1:

Though sin has always been around since mankind crawled out of the slime....
And since mankind has walked upright, sexual sins have always existed....

In what seed bed would sexual deviants most likely NOT grow:

1. A traditional and or Latin Mass Catholic Order?

Or

2. A 1970s semenary where often good, holy young men were unwelcome, mocked and often rejected on grounds that were bullshit.......especially those who for eg prayed the rosary, accepted and supported HV 1968, and even dared believe in God as Father Son and Holy Ghost (but not mother) and the Resurrection as a real historical event....?

Or

3. A 1970s and 1980s semenary where the 2 big mortal sins were to be against women priests and to not agree that sodomy was as wonderful, acceptable and even loving.... as married sexual love between a man and woman, and open to new life?

Ummmm ? Possibly ummmm? 1. might be right ?

PS: Just how damned stupid do they think the average orthodox, believing Catholic layperson is ??!!

Terry Curtin.

ByzRC said...

Terry Curtin -

Increasingly, I think they believe us to be very stupid and, as the Church's version of the illuminati, they privately laugh at us as patsies. How sad to have such little faith in the integrity of many who have received holy orders and in particular, those who have received the fullness of the priesthood as bishops.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Terry, I was in the seminary, Mt. St. Mary's, Emmitsburg, Maryland, in the 1980's - 1981-1985 to be exact.

There was never a hint that it was a "mortal sin" to be against ordaining women or to be in favor of sodomy.

At that time I had friends in other seminaries - Josephinum in Ohio, St. Mary's in Baltimore, Moreau at Notre Dame, and Theological College at the Catholic University of America. None of them had the experience you suggest.

Your depictions are not based in reality.


Anonymous said...

Fr MJK,

Are you serious?
Can you honestly say that your "reality" is an objective reality?
You know what I am saying.
Seminaries, mostly in the 1970s, were a sad, sick farce; and in the 80s there was some improvement but not much on what chaos and madness there was in most seminaries in the 70s.
For any average Catholic over say 55, with an IQ higher than a boiled potato, what you wrote above is an insult not just to their intelligence but an insult to the truth.
What you wrote above almost takes my breath away.
There were exceptions in the USA, Canada and the UK etc but really, Father?!
A seminarian who was open to women's ordination, saw the 50 shades of grey in every area of sexual morality, disregarded mockingly at times devotions to Mary, was open to every crackpot liturgical experiment never existed in the seminaries in the 70s to 80s?

Bill Smith.

PS QED?

Anonymous said...

There are many various openings for spin doctors in Roma at the moment!
I hear there will soon be as many PR people employed in many dioceses as their are lawyers.
I should know! I am one of them!

Mr J Alfred Proofread.

TJM said...

Kavanaugh,

Have your read Goodbye Good Men or any of Richard Sipes' books? They tell a pretty nasty tale of seminary teaching and life after the Council. Perhaps by the 1980s things had begun to settle down due to St. John Paul II. I was at Notre Dame in the 1970s and there was some pretty bad stuff going on there (albeit it involved a few miscreants and it did not appear systemic)

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

"A seminarian who was open to women's ordination, saw the 50 shades of grey in every area of sexual morality, disregarded mockingly at times devotions to Mary, was open to every crackpot liturgical experiment never existed in the seminaries in the 70s to 80s?"

Bill, at no time in the 3.5 semesters I spent at Mt. St. Mary's Seminary (1981-1985) did I ever witness or hear of any seminarian being disregarded mockingly for the things you describe. None of my friends in the seminaries I mentioned ever said they had witnessed or head of such. We, seminarians not faculty, talked among ourselves about the ordination of women. Some thought it was a good idea, others not. No one was mocked for the position he took.

We had some amazingly heated arguments about silly things, as, I suspect, most students in graduate study programs may about things pertaining to their areas of study. But it was usually good natured debate as we formed our thoughts and arguments, reloaded for round two, and lived to tell the stories the next day when one of the faculty reminded us that we needed to be a little less lively in our hallway debates late at night.

"For any average Catholic over say 55, with an IQ higher than a boiled potato, what you wrote above is an insult not just to their intelligence but an insult to the truth."

No, it's not. I reported what I experienced.

People say all sorts of things about what supposedly went on in seminaries and I, based on the time I spent in one, am left wondering where these stories come from. Mt St Mary's was a very middle-of-the-road theologate. We had faculty and students on the progressive side and faculty and students on the conservative side. Because our chapel was very small, our liturgies were very "minimal" and celebrated according to the books. Some visitors would experience that aspect - the liturgies - and conclude, wrongly, that The Mount was a "bastion of conservatism" or even a "haven for traddies." It was neither.


Anonymous said...

Father,

Spot on.

Seminaries in NZ, Australia, Canada and the UK from 1970 to 1985 were exactly like your memory lane way .....turning left..

Pauline H.

Anonymous said...

Father,

Spot on.

Seminaries in NZ, Australia, Canada and the UK from 1970 to 1985 were exactly like your memory lane way .....turning left...or right..then in 2018 we re-right sorry re-write our pasts, yours, ours and mine. Thank you.

Pauline H.

Marc said...

"We, seminarians not faculty, talked among ourselves about the ordination of women. Some thought it was a good idea, others not. No one was mocked for the position he took."

This tells you what you need to know about Mike's seminary. Some positions need to be mocked.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

No, Marc, no one needs to be mocked. As I suspect you did in law school, we in seminary argued about many, many things. We stated positions, presented arguments, listened to counter-arguments, and got up the next day as friends who worked together for the good of our seminary community.

We raised money together for the needs of the house, working next to the person with whom we disagreed about liturgy or music or the morality of possessing nuclear weapons. We shared field assignments (teaching CCD, hospital ministry, Catholic Worker House duty, preaching as deacons) with the people who were on the "other" side of the Progressive/Conservative divide. We put together football and volleyball and basketball teams to compete in intra-collegiate leagues. Our house teams did well.

We didn't mock each other - we disagreed.

Anonymous said...

Alisons in Wonderland.

AKA any priest who can claim that is a full accurate picture of post Vat 2 disaster seminaries vintage c. 1970 to 1985.

CSL.

Gene said...

Anonymous @ 6:28 August 23, I have not fled to the Methodists...I have just wandered over there in a somewhat desperate and discouraged search for the preaching of the Gospel and to re-visit the protestant ecclesiology model to see if I feel any different about it after ten years as a Catholic. The jury is still out. I went to the local Presbyterian church a few times and they are all crazy in this town. I cannot abide the Baptists because I grew up as one for a while. There are no Lutherans here. The Episcopalians make me want to worship backed into a corner, and the rest are just too congregational for my tastes.