Saturday, February 8, 2014

YOUR IDEA OF PURGATORY?

I have discovered a new metaphor for purgatory. It is standing in line for space mountain for more than an hour only to get on a ride that no 60 year old priest in his right mind should ever ride and doing this until modern Catholics who don't pray for the happy repose of the soul of the Faithful Departed anymore pray me out of this recurring scene.

64 comments:

Pater Ignotus said...

Purgatory is not a place nor does it have time.

Purgatory is that moment when we die and stand before God who is the perfection of all holiness and realize painfully that, by God's grace, we could have lived Saintly lives.

That, or Purgatory is standing in line at Space Mountain with some over-the-hill priest who thinks he's made a good choice to ride a roller coaster in the dark.

Cameron said...

Are you at Disney World?

Gene said...

Ah, Fr., that sounds more like Hell...

Anonymous said...

If I may digress....from purgatory to HELL....I have this nightmare that I die...see the light at the end of the tunnel...and when I get there, it's the ATLANTA AIRPORT. Satan welcomes me and then informs me where I am...and that I will be there waiting for my flight...forever...that I will change gates from time to time, but that my flight will NEVER leave.

rcg said...

It is only Hell if you have to wait in line with an elderly woman who wants to complain to you that the line is too long and what you should do about it until you feel that being violently shaken in the dark until you vomit is a relief.

Gene said...

Ignotus has no sense of humor. He can only respond concretely with some lame lecture regarding the nature of Purgatory. Too, bad, Iggy, you'll never be able to top Fr.MacDonald's homily on Purgatory several years ago at the Requiem Mass at St. Joseph's. One of the best homiletical moments I remember…and I am a former Calvinist minister with ingrained high standards for good preaching. I think Fr. can handle the roller coaster…maybe you should hang out over at the Peter Pan ride or, surely, you would be happy over at that globalist propaganda deal where "Small World" blares in your ears interminably…or at one of the dance shows with all those gays and other misfits prancing across the stage. Have fun…and don't forget your Mickey Mouse ears. LOL!

Anonymous said...

Nyah nyah nyah nyah... My pastor's better than yours...

What is this? Third grade recess?

Anonymous said...

Are we to infer that because a Catholic priest, who normally seems ready to fight for the Truths of the Catholic Church, finds it morally ok to spend the money entrusted to him at a company who openly and unabashedly supports gay marriage and promotes it to children on their television shows (as well as other non-wholesome viewpoints) we too therefore should feel free of sin and have a clear conscience if we too do the same at that company?

Just seeking clarification.

~SL

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Of course given what is promoted on the worldwide web and what we patronize with it and the cable companies I think going to Disney is Disney World compared to those forms of entertainment!

Gene said...

Anonymous, Are you still here? LOL!

rcg said...

Anon, next time you drive your car, you might think about what sort of person made your plates.

Anonymous said...

Disney may not be as benign Disney World as one thinks.

Disney is systematically using subtle subversive techniques to train the brains of our children...and us.
Below is only ONE example.

from the National Catholic Register:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/steven-greydanus/so-how-gay-is-disneys-frozen

I realize that an individual has only their own well formed conscience to go by, and be held accountable for. So, I refrain from passing judgement on anyone. Yet, my conscience is having great difficulty in allowing me to knowingly spend any money at Disney or allow it to be watched in my home.

~SL

George said...

Anonymous Pater Ignotus said...

Purgatory is not a place nor does it have time.


St Augustine

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]}.


We know that purgatory will eventually come to an end which tells me (which concurs with Augustine above) that there is a passing of time there.

Only heaven is timeless and so it is eternal.

As far as as it not being a place the testimony of other saints seems to indicate otherwise. If one has being ( whether as spirit or body) then one must "be" in some place.

Joe Potillor said...

Space Mountain is my favorite ride at Disneyland, and thus that sounds like neither hell nor purgatory...Justin Bieber being repeated on an endless loop is hell....any time less than that would be purgatory.

Gene said...

I agree with SL. Disney is a swamp of Leftist propaganda and is infested with homosexuals and other deviates. Neither of my children let their kids watch it and I find it abhorrent. Catholics should not support it in any way. Hey, life is tough, but if you try real hard you can do without Disney. Live with some integrity.

qwikness said...

Purgatory is like a car wash. The further you go a long the cleaner you get until you get to the other side. AKA Sanctification.

JBS said...

Anonymous,

Is Fr. McDonald spending money "entrusted to him", or his salary which he earned?

Is there now to be an "index of forbidden theme parks"?

The Second Vatican Council instructs us to convert the world, not to condemn it.

Anonymous said...

My idea of Purgatory is seeing a sloppy, arrogant pope who continually shows hatred for tradition and has no sense of Catholic theology and who never shuts his mouth. All the while their is wholesale abandonment of the Faith. Now I know the third secret of Fatima wasn't about any of this but rather the more important event of the attempted assassination of a pope (which never happened before' and that is sarcasm before anyone attempts a correction), but maybe Our Lady should have warned us about something like this. I sure hope it never happens ( that's more sarcasm).

Judge Nott said...

Or, perhaps, is Fr McDonald a guest of a family member with small children, at the theme park because in charity it would be difficult if not impossible to refuse the invitation? Why are we so quick to judge?
The picture of the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics that dominated the newspapers and the blogs was the failure of one of five rings to properly unfold. One technical mistake in a program that lasted over an hour and that was otherwise technically flawless. (Yes, I know that it glossed over decades of Communist evil. I am speaking of theatrical execution not of political ideology) Still, is this who we are? People who glory in pointing out the flaws in others, the splinters in the eyes of our neighbors? Fr McDonald is a holy priest who offers us an insight into his person every day of the week, yet some drool in anticipation of the moment when they can pounce like a famished wildebeast upon any vulnerability, real or perceived. Honestly, people! Get a life or get your own blog! If the latter, then you open yourself up to character assassination at every missed semicolon, ridicule at every dangled participle.

Gene said...

Fr. JBS, Next thing we know you'll be taming rattlesnakes…and what does Paul say about "the form of this world?"

Gene said...

Also, it is individuals that Christ encounters and that we are to convert, not the world. You sound like the recent Methodist re-write of their mission statement…from "saving souls" to "saving the world."

JBS said...

My idea of purgatory is seeing sloppy, arrogant comments by people who continually show an ignorance of tradition and have no sense of Catholic theology and always post as "anonymous". The Third Secret of Fatima is clearly about enraged blog comments!

Love more, hate less. And, calm down.

Pater Ignotus is wrong. Purgatory is a place in Colorado and is on Mountain Standard Time.

JBS said...

Gene,

Saint Paul needed a vacation in Orlando! And, there are plenty of people where I live who could teach me about snake taming. I've got no problem with that. It's taming spiders that would freak me out.

Anonymous said...

Gene....My wife and I have 7 children, 21 grandchildren and 4 great grandchildren. We have a gay daughter and a gay granddaughter.

I assure you that neither of them is a deviate. They are both gentle, loving and extraordinarily intelligent. One is a musician, the other is an interpreter for the deaf. We love them as much as the rest and treat them no differently. What will you do if one (or more) of your grandchildren is gay? I hope you won't call them names and toss them out of your life. I hope that you will love them and respect them.

JBS said...

Anonymous,

I believe Gene is simply noting that the company in question publicly endorses unnatural lifestyles. The Church teaches us to care for those suffering from unnatural temptations, but also teaches us to discourage them from giving in to such temptations. Gene's comments may not always be as delicate as they could be, especially considering newcomers to this site, but his motivations are solidly Catholic.

Pater Ignotus said...

Purgatory is not a place, it is a state of being. Blessed Pope John Paul II: “The term (purgatory) does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.”

It is not "the cooler flames of hell." Pope Benedict XVI: "“This is purgatory, an interior fire.”
This is how I described it when I said the suffering of Purgatory is our own painful realization of our sinfulness.

St. Thomas Aquinas warns us not to think of existence in eternity in the same terms we use for existence in mortality: "Incorporeal things (souls) are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

When we die, we enter eternity. In eternity there is no time. We speak or think of the next life in material terms - "500 Days off from Purgatory," "pearly gates," "streets paved with gold," etc., these are our time- and place-bound explanations.

Yes, if one has material being, one must be in a material place. However, as St. Thomas indicates, souls are not material beings and are not in a place after a manner known and familiar to us.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

PI thou middle name art heresy. Mary is in a place called heaven with her body as is ourRisen Lord with his. And in the resurrection of the dead we will too but maybe not you the heretic.

Gene said...

Homosexuality is deviate behavior, regardless of the personalities of the people practicing it. Up until the libs got hold of the DMS, it was listed as a character disorder. It is at least that. It is based upon a biological falsehood, as well as a theological and social falsehood. We may love our homosexual family members, but we cannot change the nature of the disorder.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Gene the Church uses the term "disordered" which is morality neutral and does not place culpability on the person. Original Sin is a human disorder leading to all other disorders or defects. Morality and thus sin comes into play through sinful, disordered actions or acting on disordered passions. Every sin is forgiveable through sorrow, repentance and confession.

Pater Ignotus said...

Good Father - Please try to understand that the glorified bodies we will have in heaven are not the material bodies we have now. That is the distinction made by St. Thomas that you seem to have failed to comprehend.

In heaven these glorified bodies will have perfect beauty, impassibility, agility, and subtlety.

Surely even you can understand the difference between the painful knees you currently have and the beautiful, impassible, agile, and subtle knees you will have in heaven.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Yes just as long as I can have my chic filet and eat it too and not deal with the impassability of it as heaven has no restrooms or need for them.

Gene said...

Fr, nothing I said is out of agreement with what you posted.

JBS said...

Perhaps Fr. McDonald will take up ballet in Heaven?

Anonymous said...

Michael Sam, one of the leading NFL candidates, SEC (Univ of MO) defensive player of the year, is out as a gay man. Increasingly every day, gay equality and gay rights are being accepted.... by the SEC, NFL, USA, governments, churches, good people all over the world...the WORLD. What is going to happen when the Catholics are the only ones who consider gay people disordered and deviant. Will the Church become a shrinking cult-like group....composed of an ageing, diminishing purer population? There seem to be some who would welcome that scenario. I think that an inevitable showdown is looming between the World and the Church.

Gene said...

So, Anonymous, I guess you vote for the world…too bad.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

The show down is long been on, the Church has to be Faithful to the Scripture. Tradition, and natural law, but focus must be on chastity for all and God's mercy for the sinner. There have always been government and cultural oppression of the Church and Catholic traitors who join the opposition. Pope Francis spoke recently of those traitors as the corrupt.

George said...

Pater Ignotus:

"Please try to understand that the glorified bodies we will have in heaven are not the material bodies we have now. That is the distinction made by St. Thomas that you seem to have failed to comprehend."

"In heaven these glorified bodies will have perfect beauty, impassibility, agility, and subtlety."

True enough. As did Christ's body after the Resurrection. He ate and conversed with the apostles. Thomas was able to feel his His wounds. His is a real substantial physical body but with characteristics of
a glorified body superior to our own. Christ has a real physical body and He is in the place we know of as the Eternal Heaven. When St Catherine Laboure conversed with the Blessed Virgin, Our Lady was actually there in the chapel at Rue de Bac. Her glorified
real,substantial,physical body was assumed into Heaven.

Souls are not material but a soul has being and that being is us. A soul is able to be in a material place (earth) because it subsists within a physical body. Outside the body it will be some place even if as
St Thomas Aquinas says it will be "not in a place after a manner known and familiar to us."

Purgatory did not always exist(it is not co-existent with God). We know it began sometime. We know
that it will come to an end since there will come a time when it is no longer necessary. It is not
eternal (beyond and without time), so I agree with Augustine that the punishment there is temporal.
The punishment there will be experienced by an immaterial soul.
Is the passage of time experienced the same there? No. Even in the physical Universe we reside in,
Einstein demonstrated mathematically that time can "slow down" or "speed up" (Time dilation). This
time variation is something experienced by the observer.

When we came into existence, it was God who gave us being. May we all someday "be" with Him.




Flavius Hesychius said...

"I think that an inevitable showdown is looming between the World and the Church."

Yeah... it was only prophesied a couple of millenia ago. Spoiler alert: "the world" doesn't win.

Pater Ignotus said...

George - Describe your concept of the "place" you call heaven. Is there length, depth, height?

Is there a ground on which to stand, air through which to move, a horizon toward which one looks?

More importantly, why do you think it theologically necessary (keeping in mind the analogy of faith) for heaven to be a "place" rather than a "state of being" or a "state of existence?"

Pater Ignotus said...

"This language of place is, according to the Pope (John Paul II), inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he (JP2) is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

John Nolan said...

I don't think PI has said anything heretical. In fact I don't think he ever does; he is a typical post-V2 priest who embraces modernity but fights shy of Modernism per se.

My idea of purgatory would be a Mass in English with music by Haugen, Haas, Schutte, Inwood and others for whom I am convinced a separate circle of hell has been prepared, performed by an ad-libbing stentorian 'presider' in polyester vestments. The trouble is, I go to decent Latin Masses and come out spiritually refreshed, having actually enjoyed the experience. Should I be going to ghastly liturgies (which are quite prevalent) in order to endure more temporal punishment?

When I was a child we were all told about the importance of mortifying the flesh. Perhaps the purpose of Vatican II was to make the Mass a mortifying experience. It certainly succeeded in this regard.

JBS said...

John Nolan,

They used Haugen, Haas and Schutte in the UK? I thought that virus was contained to the USA.

George said...

Pater Ignotus said...

George - Describe your concept of the "place" you call heaven. Is there length, depth, height?

Does God not have the power to make it so if He chose to? Certainly I believe that since Heaven is superior to Earthly existence that it is beyond our experience here.
I believe,accept and profess what our Holy Church teaches. I believe in the Power of our God. I also learn from the mystical enlightenments of her Holy sons and daughters, the saints. I believe that Christ ascended body and soul into heaven and that the Blessed Virgin was assumed body and soul into heaven.
I know that our human bodies have length breath and height. I know that heaven is outside and superior to our existential reality.
How this human body can exist in this heaven we are taught exists, I know not. How this is possible I do not know but I accept it by faith. Just as I believe and accept that bread and wine at Mass are transubstantiated into the Body,Blood,Soul,and Divinity of Christ.
In looking at pictures of the incorrupt bodies of St Bernadette or St Louise Marillac, I know that they are somehow enjoying the beatific vision (in the way John Paul II was referring to). I know that at the final resurrection they will also enjoy it bodily.

George said...

I have read very little of Aquinas and never studied his works formally.

Here is something to consider.

"For Aquinas, the rewards and punishment of the afterlife are not only spiritual. Because of this, resurrection is an important part of his philosophy on the soul. The human is fulfilled and complete in the body, so the hereafter must take place with souls enmattered in resurrected bodies. In addition to spiritual reward, humans can expect to enjoy material and physical blessings. Because Aquinas’s soul requires a body for its actions, during the afterlife, the soul will also be punished or rewarded in corporeal existence."
Stump, Eleanore (2003). Aquinas, (in the series The Arguments of the Philosophers). London and New York: Routledge.

John Nolan said...

JBS

Dan Schutte's nauseating "Here I am, Lord" was voted favourite hymn in a poll of 'Tablet' readers. Not long ago I was at a Mass (faute de mieux) where a woman with a keyboard rehearsed the congregation in the chorus from his "Gloria" - which would be OK as an advertising jingle. Just the chorus, mind, not the rest, which was left out. Paul Inwood, who was the liturgical Grand Panjandrum in Portsmouth diocese until last year, and regularly pontificates on PrayTell, is a home-grown product. We've also exported Bernadette Farrell, so it's by no means a one-way street.

The virus has spread throughout the English-speaking world, and indeed beyond it, aided and abetted by the publishers. A lot of people actually like it, but then a lot of people actually like Justin Bieber.

Pater Ignotus said...

George - God can do anything, but that's not the point.

Christ ascended with a glorified body into heaven, not the body that he had whilst on earth. He has a real glorified body in heaven with the attributes - beauty, impassibility, agility, and subtlety - already mentioned.

This glorified body does not require a place.

I ask again, why do you think it theologically necessary (keeping in mind the analogy of faith) for heaven to be a "place" rather than a "state of being" or a "state of existence?"

Of course the mystics have described heaven as a place because that is how humans understand things. But that description, in material, temporal terms, is not necessarily what heaven is in itself.

St. John of Damascus said...

We believe also in the resurrection of the dead. For there will be in truth, there will be, a resurrection of the dead, and by resurrection we mean resurrection of bodies. For resurrection is the second state of that which has fallen. For the souls are immortal, and hence how can they rise again? For if they define death as the separation of soul and body, resurrection surely is the re-union of soul and body, and the second state of the living creature that has suffered dissolution and downfall. It is, then, this very body, which is corruptible and liable to dissolution, that will rise again incorruptible. For He, who made it in the beginning of the sand of the earth, does not lack the power to raise it up again after it has been dissolved again and returned to the earth from which it was taken, in accordance with the reversal of the Creator’s judgment.

Anonymous said...

What age will our glorified bodies be? Will we be at our prime...like we were when we died...will babies still be babies? Sounds a bit absurd really...

St. John of Damascus said...

But some one will say, How are the dead raised up? Oh, what disbelief! Oh, what folly! Will He, Who at His solitary will changed earth into body, Who commanded the little drop of seed to grow in the mother’s womb and become in the end this varied and manifold organ of the body, not the rather raise up again at His solitary will that which was and is dissolved? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, if thy hardness will not permit you to believe the words of God, at least believe His works.

The Holy Fathers' Anathemas Against Origen said...


If anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be an immaterial, and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit: let him be anathema.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Amen! PI is a dualist and thus a heretic!

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Let PI be anathema!

Gene said...

I cannot believe this discussion is still going on. *sigh* We only get glimpses of eternity, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory from Scripture and tradition. But, Scripture and the Church clearly teach that we do have a body in Heaven and that we are recognizable to each other. Since there is no time in eternity, we are ageless. We don't know the answer to such questions as to what age we are or whether babies grow up in Heaven. We are told that we will be happy in God's Presence and that we will have everything we need. That should be enough.

Gene said...

Yes, Fr., but PI serves with the sanction of his Bishop…just ask him. That makes it all ok.

Anonymous said...

Where are we told in Scripture and/or Tradition that we will recognize each other?

JBS said...

I'm curious, which of Fr. McDonald's posts has the most comments ever?

Gene said...

Anonymous, Scripture generally assumes that personal identity is maintained in eternity. In the NT, Christ always sought out and encountered the individual; Christ's teachings were largely addressed to the individual, even when he was speaking to crowds. His moral teachings and His theological teachings challenged the individual to repent and be saved. However, here are some Scriptures for you to ponder:
1 Thess. 4:17
1Cor. 13:12
1Cor. 15:51
Luke 16:22-25
2Samuel 12: 22-23

Christ also tells the disciples that he goes to "prepare a place for you that where I am you may be also." All these scriptures assume personal identity in Heaven. I expect we will miss you there…LOL!

Gene said...

I am sure PI is a dualist and a modern gnostic and probably agnostic, as well. However, I have often wished that he was a duelist…LOL!

Anonymous said...

We currently recognize the saints as individuals even though we can presently only see through a glass, darkly.
Is there greater confusion in heaven than on earth?

Anonymous said...

1 Thess 4:17 - "then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Nothing there about recognizing each other.

1 Cor 13:12 - "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood."

Nothing there about recognizing each other.

1 Cor 15:51 - "Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"

Nothing there about recognizing each other.

Luke 16:22-25 - "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish."

Nothing there about recognizing each other.

2 Samuel 12:22-23 - "He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Nothing there.....

Gene said...

Anonymous, the presumption of all of these scriptures is that we remain individuals and personalities within our glorified bodies. If you cannot grasp that, that is tough.

JBS said...

So, Fr. McDonald, how was the ride?

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

It was awesome! Today back to Macon and reality.

Anonymous said...

Clearly, Dives "recognized" not only Lazarus, whom he had known in this life, but Abraham, whom he had not so seen.
- Ancil Payne