I probably would have gotten up and walked out of that stupid processional with the red fish and the sails and taken my chances with the Lord...I'll bet He didn't like it, either.
My 17 year old son and I could not figure out why a blood-red jellyfish kite would be in a processional in a Catholic Church. If this replaced the monstrance, then they havva lotta splainin to do.
Something just came to me. Maybe one of the problems with the Novus Ordo (which I attend and derive great spiritual benefit from) is that people can feel that something is missing. They try to fill that something with their creativity. Over the years in parish life, I have noticed that when people toy with the liturgy, it is often done in order to add something that the traditional rites address. How do we make this mass more solemn? How do show penance? What do we do to show sorrow at the thought of death? How do we symbolize the Holy Spirit better? Perhaps that is one of the tragedies of the liturgical renewal: too much was snipped away and people notice the hole. They try to fill it. Again, I appreciate much of the liturgical renewal, but as that horrible procession shows, there are problems. Give me a Cappa Magna any day.
A year (or two ago) I would have walked-out of the gold-fish. In my un-charity, I would have made some sort of comment about Dagon (or some-other such deity/thing). I did walk-out of some dance-thingy at the Christmas Vigil – it was just too much for me; and, sadly, my blood boiled – it defeated the purpose of going, no?
One can never go wrong by imitating the Our Lady: keep one’s mouth shut. As St. Paul tells us (minus the endless exegesis of was it really Paul himself): “You must be always humble, always gentle; patient, too, in bearing with one another’s faults, as charity bids; eager to preserve that unity the Spirit gives you, whose bond is peace. You are one body, with a single Spirit; each of you, when he was called, called in the same hope; with the same Lord, the same faith, the same baptism; with the same God, the same Father, all of us, who is above all beings, pervades all things, and lives in all of us.” Ephesians 4: 2-6
Nathanael, read the rest of that chapter..you know, about "speaking the truth in love" and "putting away falsehood, speaking the truth to his neighbor." Then, look over to Chap. 6:10-20. I think this gives a clearer picture of where Paul stands. Our Lady's soul "magnified the Lord." If something does not do that, should we not speak to it?
I think Steven Surrency is exactly right. I have had the same thought many times in the past. Why don't those in leadership positions in the Church (namely bishops and pastors) see what is so patently obvious and which Steven has articulated so well in his comment?
With all the things that are wrong in the world (and in the Church itself) does it really matter if there is a bit of “whimsy” in the procession (I think that is charitable – it is better than saying it is loopy)?
Just this Sunday we had 3 out of 4 Dan Schutte hymns (including the dreadful “City of God” we all are supposed to building) sung at us. Now, I could have remembered the EF form I attended the Sunday-before-last and all the wonderful Marian hymns (and NOT a feast day – thanks be to God!) and made some nasty comparisons – but I didn’t. I listened to the readings and sang “Sing of Mary” to myself – and it was a very nice Mass with a strong and reverent homily (with a dash of humor).
Our Lady was silent at the Crucifixion – her last words at Cana (where the Lord began his public path to the Holy Cross and the very different wedding feast we remember every Sunday) summing up all of Christian teaching in very few words. Indeed, Our Lady does magnify the glory of the Lord – but it was truly in the silence of her heart while she was on Earth. Our Lord gave her the greatest compliment: “When he spoke thus, a woman in the multitude said to him aloud, Blessed is the womb that bore thee, the breast which thou hast sucked. And he answered, Shall we not say, Blessed are those who hear the word of God, and keep it?” Luke 11: 27-28.
If bad music and silly things in the procession make some people feel closer to the Lord – let them have them. They are not exactly spitting on the Holy Cross are they? They are interpreting the Gospel in way that is relevant to them – at least they are paying attention. If someone’s heart is truly in the place of bringing attention to something in the Gospel does it displease the Lord or our own vanity? It seems there would just be much more cohesion in the Church if we just imitate the Holy Virgin – and St Joseph.
The Lord is going to meet-out enough punishment for vanity and a lot of other things done against the Holy Mass over the past sixty years. Certainly many of those responsible have already had their Particular Judgment – shouldn’t that be comfort enough?
One must pick the battles that are important – and that we can actually do something about. I, for one, know my personal opinion(s) about the liturgy matter not one bit to the Church. And that is as it should be. It is not about being indifferent – it is about not injecting myself into something that I have no business in. I am not the successor of St. Peter or his representative whom Peter appointed to rule and govern – their rule will be judged by Christ the King (whom they represent by virtue of their Holy Office and, hopefully, edify by their lives).
I have enough to answer for – I know how much I have wounded his most Sacred Heart by my sins. I do not want to take on the judgment of those whom he appointed to stand-in for him until he comes to reign again. Our Lady always reminds us: penance, penance, penance. She never said anything about vanity, judgment, and scruples.
If the faithful (including myself) spent half of the time they do worrying over what is going-on by the political manipulations of this person or that person in the Holy See or how Father X says the Mass or how vapid most parish music by praying the Rosary, the Divine Office, the Little Office of the B.V.M., or some other holy devotion the Church (and the world) would be reformed. The Prince of the World loves the division he has caused in the Church and all the people he has lined-up to our particular vanity to blame.
Points of style, etc. are personal to particular parish. I could listen to “Firmly I Believe and Truly” and “Immaculate Mary” every Sunday and not tire of them. Just as someone can listen to (and some of us have to listen to) “Table of Plenty” or “Here I Am Lord” every Sunday and enjoy them.
Unfortunately, I get the giggles with “Here I am Lord” – for some reasons I always think of “Chantilly Lace.” And one always catches more flies with honey than vinegar.
It does not matter that you did not say anything goes..it is the logic of your position...the logical conclusion of it, if you reason it out, is "anything goes." Even if you do not intend that, the enemies of the Church will take the relativism of your statement and run with it, and those who may not know any better will be confused and misled. Liturgical theology and practice are important and should be precisely taught and defended. This is no time for self-deprecatory "who am I's" on the part of Catholics who need to be defending the faith.
Just an observation: Yesterday, there were thirteen women in the Sanctuary...six of eight altar servers, six of eight EMHC's (at a Mass that was only 3/4 full) and, if you count the lector, fourteen women. This really seems a bit much. About half the congregation was making oracular gestures with the Priest and looking up to the sky, but many of these same did not know when to kneel and would not/could not recite the Creed from memory or follow the responses. Things are just backward. On bright note, more seem to be kneeling to receive, and the homily was very nice. I also liked Fr. David's kick in the tail to parishioners in his bulletin message...
“Even if you do not intend that, the enemies of the Church will take the relativism of your statement and run with it, and those who may not know any better will be confused and misled. Liturgical theology and practice are important and should be precisely taught and defended. This is no time for self-deprecatory "who am I's" on the part of Catholics who need to be defending the faith.”
Nor is it time for self-appointed laity to insert their personal liturgical view-points on the rest of the Church – and then complain when the legitimate hierarchy rejects out-right (or ignores – which is usually the case and done in great charity) their over-all view of the Church and her direction in this new century.
Logical conclusions – what you mean is personal vanity taken to the extreme; defending the faith from what? A fish and sails in a procession does not deny Christ nor is it going to bring about Apocalypse.
I do say who am I. I know my place in the Church – and it is not Lord Protector. Just because something offends our frail sensibilities does not mean it offends the supernatural sense of the Lord God.
I admire Nathanael for his forbearance. Yes, it was very silly, but I didn't see a dancing deacon or vestal not-so-virgins with smoking incense bowls pirouetting up the nave. I wouldn't have walked out because I wouldn't have been there in the first place - I avoid occasions where there is even the slightest chance of these things happening.
Not long ago I was profoundly shocked when a woman in an adjacent row adopted the palms-up Mahometan prayer posture during the singing of the Pater Noster in, of all places, Brompton Oratory. It was like seeing someone urinating on Horse Guards' Parade or on the hallowed turf of Lord's Cricket Ground.
Gene, describing fourteen women in the sanctuary as "a bit much" is a masterpiece of understatement which surely qualifies you as an honorary Brit.
“Look well what thou art doing when thou goest into God’s house; present thyself there in a spirit of obedience. Obedience is far better than the sacrifice made by fools, that are guilty of unwitting sacrilege.” Ecclesiastes 4:17
John, I am honored to be an honorary Brit. Sir Winston has always been one I admire greatly...in my estimation the greatest man of the 20th century...no slouch at understatement, himself, he was even better at overstatement. LOL!
Not proof texting – that is a round-about game for heretics, schematics, and pagans.
But the Word of the Lord does have a way of stripping us of our vanity.
My only point is that the Triune God has seen this “dog and pony show” many, many times since Creation. And “some-how” his will still manages to be done – silly displays and all. God needs no favors from us when it comes to his Church. He does demand obedience to the legitimate hierarchy of the Church; no matter which way the winds of popular culture move them in their flights of pastoral fancy.
I am sure complaints about the fish should be mailed to Cardinal Wuerl – I am sure he knows just what to with them.
True outrage (or even the manufactured outrage that builds-up our conceit) at the silliest of things reminds me more of one of Aesop’s fables about the shepherd and…well…you know…than the Good Shepherd, Christ Jesus. ;)
20 comments:
Why, BANAL of course! Don't you just love the red paper fish-god and the sail-boat sails being toted down the aisle?
I probably would have gotten up and walked out of that stupid processional with the red fish and the sails and taken my chances with the Lord...I'll bet He didn't like it, either.
My 17 year old son and I could not figure out why a blood-red jellyfish kite would be in a processional in a Catholic Church. If this replaced the monstrance, then they havva lotta splainin to do.
Something just came to me. Maybe one of the problems with the Novus Ordo (which I attend and derive great spiritual benefit from) is that people can feel that something is missing. They try to fill that something with their creativity. Over the years in parish life, I have noticed that when people toy with the liturgy, it is often done in order to add something that the traditional rites address. How do we make this mass more solemn? How do show penance? What do we do to show sorrow at the thought of death? How do we symbolize the Holy Spirit better? Perhaps that is one of the tragedies of the liturgical renewal: too much was snipped away and people notice the hole. They try to fill it. Again, I appreciate much of the liturgical renewal, but as that horrible procession shows, there are problems. Give me a Cappa Magna any day.
A year (or two ago) I would have walked-out of the gold-fish. In my un-charity, I would have made some sort of comment about Dagon (or some-other such deity/thing). I did walk-out of some dance-thingy at the Christmas Vigil – it was just too much for me; and, sadly, my blood boiled – it defeated the purpose of going, no?
One can never go wrong by imitating the Our Lady: keep one’s mouth shut. As St. Paul tells us (minus the endless exegesis of was it really Paul himself): “You must be always humble, always gentle; patient, too, in bearing with one another’s faults, as charity bids; eager to preserve that unity the Spirit gives you, whose bond is peace. You are one body, with a single Spirit; each of you, when he was called, called in the same hope; with the same Lord, the same faith, the same baptism; with the same God, the same Father, all of us, who is above all beings, pervades all things, and lives in all of us.” Ephesians 4: 2-6
Easier said than done – but why not try?
"Shut up," he explained...LOL!
Nathanael, read the rest of that chapter..you know, about "speaking the truth in love" and "putting away falsehood, speaking the truth to his neighbor." Then, look over to Chap. 6:10-20. I think this gives a clearer picture of where Paul stands. Our Lady's soul "magnified the Lord." If something does not do that, should we not speak to it?
I think Steven Surrency is exactly right. I have had the same thought many times in the past. Why don't those in leadership positions in the Church (namely bishops and pastors) see what is so patently obvious and which Steven has articulated so well in his comment?
With all the things that are wrong in the world (and in the Church itself) does it really matter if there is a bit of “whimsy” in the procession (I think that is charitable – it is better than saying it is loopy)?
Just this Sunday we had 3 out of 4 Dan Schutte hymns (including the dreadful “City of God” we all are supposed to building) sung at us. Now, I could have remembered the EF form I attended the Sunday-before-last and all the wonderful Marian hymns (and NOT a feast day – thanks be to God!) and made some nasty comparisons – but I didn’t. I listened to the readings and sang “Sing of Mary” to myself – and it was a very nice Mass with a strong and reverent homily (with a dash of humor).
Our Lady was silent at the Crucifixion – her last words at Cana (where the Lord began his public path to the Holy Cross and the very different wedding feast we remember every Sunday) summing up all of Christian teaching in very few words. Indeed, Our Lady does magnify the glory of the Lord – but it was truly in the silence of her heart while she was on Earth. Our Lord gave her the greatest compliment: “When he spoke thus, a woman in the multitude said to him aloud, Blessed is the womb that bore thee, the breast which thou hast sucked. And he answered, Shall we not say, Blessed are those who hear the word of God, and keep it?” Luke 11: 27-28.
If bad music and silly things in the procession make some people feel closer to the Lord – let them have them. They are not exactly spitting on the Holy Cross are they? They are interpreting the Gospel in way that is relevant to them – at least they are paying attention. If someone’s heart is truly in the place of bringing attention to something in the Gospel does it displease the Lord or our own vanity? It seems there would just be much more cohesion in the Church if we just imitate the Holy Virgin – and St Joseph.
The Lord is going to meet-out enough punishment for vanity and a lot of other things done against the Holy Mass over the past sixty years. Certainly many of those responsible have already had their Particular Judgment – shouldn’t that be comfort enough?
Excuse the typos - and have a Blessed Sunday!
Nathanael, The logic of what you are saying is "anything goes." It is a form of indifferentism.
Where did I say anything goes?
One must pick the battles that are important – and that we can actually do something about. I, for one, know my personal opinion(s) about the liturgy matter not one bit to the Church. And that is as it should be. It is not about being indifferent – it is about not injecting myself into something that I have no business in. I am not the successor of St. Peter or his representative whom Peter appointed to rule and govern – their rule will be judged by Christ the King (whom they represent by virtue of their Holy Office and, hopefully, edify by their lives).
I have enough to answer for – I know how much I have wounded his most Sacred Heart by my sins. I do not want to take on the judgment of those whom he appointed to stand-in for him until he comes to reign again. Our Lady always reminds us: penance, penance, penance. She never said anything about vanity, judgment, and scruples.
If the faithful (including myself) spent half of the time they do worrying over what is going-on by the political manipulations of this person or that person in the Holy See or how Father X says the Mass or how vapid most parish music by praying the Rosary, the Divine Office, the Little Office of the B.V.M., or some other holy devotion the Church (and the world) would be reformed. The Prince of the World loves the division he has caused in the Church and all the people he has lined-up to our particular vanity to blame.
Points of style, etc. are personal to particular parish. I could listen to “Firmly I Believe and Truly” and “Immaculate Mary” every Sunday and not tire of them. Just as someone can listen to (and some of us have to listen to) “Table of Plenty” or “Here I Am Lord” every Sunday and enjoy them.
Unfortunately, I get the giggles with “Here I am Lord” – for some reasons I always think of “Chantilly Lace.” And one always catches more flies with honey than vinegar.
Excuse the typos, etc. again. I typed this fast.
It does not matter that you did not say anything goes..it is the logic of your position...the logical conclusion of it, if you reason it out, is "anything goes." Even if you do not intend that, the enemies of the Church will take the relativism of your statement and run with it, and those who may not know any better will be confused and misled. Liturgical theology and practice are important and should be precisely taught and defended. This is no time for self-deprecatory "who am I's" on the part of Catholics who need to be defending the faith.
Just an observation: Yesterday, there were thirteen women in the Sanctuary...six of eight altar servers, six of eight EMHC's (at a Mass that was only 3/4 full) and, if you count the lector, fourteen women. This really seems a bit much.
About half the congregation was making oracular gestures with the Priest and looking up to the sky, but many of these same did not know when to kneel and would not/could not recite the Creed from memory or follow the responses. Things are just backward.
On bright note, more seem to be kneeling to receive, and the homily was very nice. I also liked Fr. David's kick in the tail to parishioners in his bulletin message...
“Even if you do not intend that, the enemies of the Church will take the relativism of your statement and run with it, and those who may not know any better will be confused and misled. Liturgical theology and practice are important and should be precisely taught and defended. This is no time for self-deprecatory "who am I's" on the part of Catholics who need to be defending the faith.”
Nor is it time for self-appointed laity to insert their personal liturgical view-points on the rest of the Church – and then complain when the legitimate hierarchy rejects out-right (or ignores – which is usually the case and done in great charity) their over-all view of the Church and her direction in this new century.
Logical conclusions – what you mean is personal vanity taken to the extreme; defending the faith from what? A fish and sails in a procession does not deny Christ nor is it going to bring about Apocalypse.
I do say who am I. I know my place in the Church – and it is not Lord Protector. Just because something offends our frail sensibilities does not mean it offends the supernatural sense of the Lord God.
Nathaneal, you just don't get it...but that's ok. You have lots of company.
I admire Nathanael for his forbearance. Yes, it was very silly, but I didn't see a dancing deacon or vestal not-so-virgins with smoking incense bowls pirouetting up the nave. I wouldn't have walked out because I wouldn't have been there in the first place - I avoid occasions where there is even the slightest chance of these things happening.
Not long ago I was profoundly shocked when a woman in an adjacent row adopted the palms-up Mahometan prayer posture during the singing of the Pater Noster in, of all places, Brompton Oratory. It was like seeing someone urinating on Horse Guards' Parade or on the hallowed turf of Lord's Cricket Ground.
Gene, describing fourteen women in the sanctuary as "a bit much" is a masterpiece of understatement which surely qualifies you as an honorary Brit.
“Look well what thou art doing when thou goest into God’s house; present thyself there in a spirit of obedience. Obedience is far better than the sacrifice made by fools, that are guilty of unwitting sacrilege.” Ecclesiastes 4:17
Lordy, lordy...Nathanael is proof texting at me...*sigh*
John, I am honored to be an honorary Brit. Sir Winston has always been one I admire greatly...in my estimation the greatest man of the 20th century...no slouch at understatement, himself, he was even better at overstatement. LOL!
Not proof texting – that is a round-about game for heretics, schematics, and pagans.
But the Word of the Lord does have a way of stripping us of our vanity.
My only point is that the Triune God has seen this “dog and pony show” many, many times since Creation. And “some-how” his will still manages to be done – silly displays and all. God needs no favors from us when it comes to his Church. He does demand obedience to the legitimate hierarchy of the Church; no matter which way the winds of popular culture move them in their flights of pastoral fancy.
I am sure complaints about the fish should be mailed to Cardinal Wuerl – I am sure he knows just what to with them.
True outrage (or even the manufactured outrage that builds-up our conceit) at the silliest of things reminds me more of one of Aesop’s fables about the shepherd and…well…you know…than the Good Shepherd, Christ Jesus. ;)
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