In my questions to those who attend either SSPX or FSSP parishes, I asked the following:
My impression too, was that actual participation in the Mass saw many praying the rosary or simply zoning out, but not all of course. Is actual participation in its two expressions combined, that of the interior/contemplative and that of the verbal/exterior better today that in pre-Vatican II times in these parishes?
So, today in these types of parishes, what does the "time (prayer/and religious formation dedicated to God), talent (what the laity do for the institutional church with the gifts they have) and treasure (tithing) look like?
What does Father's convert class look like and how does your parish compare in size with the "modern" Catholic parishes, liturgies and actual participation nearby?
Then one of my commenters had a common sense, no nonsense, response that takes the cake. And her answer betrays the wrong road we have been traveling since Vatican II where the focus is on human activity, right or wrong, during the liturgy and getting everyone to do it the "right" way rather than the "wrong" way as perceived by the intellectual elite in liturgical academia. What has gotten lost, is the true purpose of the Catholic parish and the Sacraments of the Church, especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass--TO GET PEOPLE INTO HEAVEN SO THEY WON'T GO TO HELL.
In fact, the Fatima Prayer of the Holy Rosary is a brief summary of what Catholic parishes should be praying for and doing:
"O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy."
Here's Bee's common sense, no nonsense answer to my post:
Bee here:
While these are good questions Fr. McD, my question would be, what percentage of pre-Vatican II Catholics went to heaven as opposed to the percentage of those Catholics baptized post-Vatican II?
I know we can't know with any certainty, but my guess is even the people praying the rosary during Mass in the pre-Vatican II days stand a better chance of reaching heaven than post-Vatican II Catholics.
Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. I guess I'll just keep praying.
13 comments:
I believe it was Pope Benedict XVI whom (as Card. Ratzinger) I recall saying in one of his books that it little behooves us to look down the little old lady, perhaps infirm or deaf or maybe blind, fingering her beads at Mass, because she may well be more open to God's grace than any of us "actively participating" folks.
So although almost everyone I see at Mass nowadays is fingering their missal or the familiar red booklet instead, I don't for a moment presume that they're getting more out of Mass than that little old lady. Nor offering more to the worship of God--which, traditionally, is the principle purpose of the liturgy, rather than our personal edification or sanctification (which are "only" secondary benefits, however welcome).
If getting into heaven depends on something a human does - praying the Rosary during Mass or at other times - then entry into heaven depends on a human act.
If entry into heaven depends on a human act, then all the celebrations we just had regarding the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ are meaningless.
Entry into heaven is based on God's grace and His justice tempered with mercy.
Anon @ 12:31,
God wants us all to enter heaven, but He will not force us to go there. God has provided the means for us, and has shown us the way, but we need to respond to His Grace with our yes, with our life-changing acceptance of His will, if we are to have any hope of entering heaven someday.
Sin is a turning away from God's will- a deciding that personal wants are more important than what God wants for us. Sin is an active turning away from God's Mercy.
Getting into heaven does depend on something a human does, we must accept that God is just, (that He is the authority who determines what is right and wrong, as well as the consequences), and we must accept his Mercy (His "I forgive you; go and sin no more"). We must renounce sin and turn towards God, living the life He intends for us to live.
Praying the Rosary and meditating on the mysteries is a very efficacious way to turn our hearts toward God. Seeing what our sins did to our Lord helps us to turn away from sin and to avoid near-occasions of sin. Christ would not have endured that horrific suffering and death if the danger of us entering hell wasn't very real.
Something to meditate on. Hope it helps.
Anonymous,
Meditation with the Holy Rosary during the Holy Mass helps us participate in Christ's Sacrifice.
This entire "active participation" canard has bothered me for years. When I was very little, I can still remember going to Mass with my grandparents and my grandmother had a "Key of Heaven" prayer book loaded with holy cards from decades of funerals she had attended. Between the rosary and the prayers for the dead, one could probably accuse her of not being "active" enough, but that would be a foolish mistake. She took her faith seriously and she believed that the souls of those who had gone before her were depending upon her prayers. She knew exactly what was going on at Mass.
ACTUAL participation is what we should all strive for, to assist the action of the Mass with our own prayers. Who is to say that the mother standing in the back, struggling to pray while managing two or three unruly children is participating any less than the proud laity marching up to the altar to distribute Holy Communion or read the Epistle? Pure elitist snobbery.
Of course, the Mass is just where we are fed. What about after we leave? Can we honestly say that the older generations of Catholics today are reflecting the goodness and mercy of God as well as generations past? I have my doubts.
Speaking of heaven and hades, viewers probably would not be pleased to hear that the frontrunner in Georgia's 6th Congressional District (replacing new HHS Secretary Tom Price), Jon Ossoff, lives outside the district with his girlfriend (who is in medical school). I thought we used to call that "living in sin", but no one has brought that up in the campaign (unfortunately, a lot of the world does not view such activity that way anymore). We'll have a runoff in June between him and Republican (and former Secretary of State) Karen Handel. Ossoff has had backing from Planned Parenthood, while Handel is more on the pro-life side, so pretty clear what the choice is for northside Atlanta residents in two months.
Speaking of heaven and hades, our current PRESIDENT is living in sin with his third wife.
Not only that, he has FIVE children from THREE different wives. Yet the "Christian" right backed him with fervor.
Can you imagine if the BLACK man he replaced had come on the scene with FIVE kids from THREE different wives? The howls and the hoots would have been deafening.
What did we hear about Trump's blatant sin from the "Christian" folks.
......chirp..........chirp.........chirp..........
Karen Handel: 1) Was forced to resign from the Komen foundation after she opposed cancer screenings provided by Planned Parenthood. 2) Quit her job as Secty of State of GA after two years (shades of Sarah Palin). 3) Was NOT endorsed in 2010 by Georgia Right to Life. 4) Claims to oppose Obamacare, but lobbied FOR Obamacare when she worked for Komen. 5) Holds the unconstitutional position, "If elected to Congress, she will work to build a wall on the border and end Muslim immigration,”.... and 6) Works to remove voters from rolls. She supported Texas' attempt to restrict voting rights, a move that the US Department of Justice forced Texas to stop.
Ms. Handel is a political opportunist and does not deserve to be elected.
It is sobering to ponder that The Fatima apparitions took place one hundred years ago, and forty-five years prior to the opening of the Second Vatican Council. In other words, well before there was a Novus Ordo. Recognizing this though does not diminish the relevance of Bee's question and observation,and given all the sinful distractions and distracting allurements prevalent in modern life, one could certainly see where it would render what she wonders about with even more relevance.
At the same time they (Fatima Seers) beheld a vision of the Blessed Sacrament suspended in the air before which the Angel prostrated himself and prayed:
"O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners".
Prayer and Sacrifice: "Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to Hell because they have no-one to make sacrifices and pray for them."
Sins of the Flesh: "More souls go to Hell because of the sins of the flesh than for any other reason."
Immodest Fashions: "Certain fashions are being introduced that offend Our Lord very much.
Sinful Marriages: "Many marriages are not good; they do not please Our Lord and are not of God."
At Fatima, Pope John Paul II said : " the message of Fatima is more relevant and more urgent " then when Our Lady first appeared. The message is an anguished appeal of our Heavenly Mother, Who sees us in great danger and Who comes to offer Her help and advice. Her message is also a prophesy, a clear indication of what was about to transpire in the 20th century, and what is still going to happen infallibly in the near future, depending on our response to Her requests.
Karen Handel is Pro-life- she opposes abortion.
She opposes same-sex marriage and same-sex civil unions
She opposes embryonic stem cell research.
Ms Handel is a Southern Baptist , but all the above positions accord with the Catholic Church's position on these issues. Mr Ossoff, her opponent favors all three.
Karen Handel did resign from Susan G, Koman. She did so because the Komen foundation reversed a decision not to fund Planned Parenthood. Jeffery Goldberg, in a 2012 story for the Atlantic magazine, brought out the fact that the decison not to fund came from a rule change sought, initiated, and brought about by Ms Handel. In other words, she didn't just "talk the talk", she "walked the walk". It was ironic that Georgia Right to Life did not endorse her in 2010 (they endorsed Nathan Deal) because it was over the very issue of funding for Planned Parenthood. When she served on the Fulton County commission , that body did contribute to that group, but it was for the purpose of funding Breast cancer screening. Her eventual position against funding for that organization came about because it was and is the largest abortion provider in the United States.
As far as Planned Parenthood and Breast Cancer screenings (the big lie), I refer you to the following article from the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/10/02/the-repeated-misleading-claim-that-planned-parenthood-provides-mammograms/?utm_term=.82ddf841d01d .
Good article. I have always understood it that the priest is mediating for us. He is praying to God and acting on our behalf during the mass. Additionally, he is offering his prayer in union with ours. I cant say that I have noticed people just zoned out or praying the rosary with no regard to the mass, although those are excellent ways to unite ourselves with the prayers of the priest at the altar. I think there is more of a focus on the priest being necessary for our salvation and working through him as Gods chosen mediator to bring us to Him at the mass. Just some thoughts.
Anonymous,
Leave the politics to the politicians. They know what they're doing.
Dialogue, I am a politician.
Anonymous,
Then just handle it.
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