Money-byte: I am concerned that a skewed impression of lovers of the Latin Mass has taken hold due to a few extremists on the internet. As this petition, and previous petitions, demonstrate, the Latin Mass has a curiously inclusive appeal. Most who attend the Latin Mass also attend the Novus Ordo (known colloquially as the Mass of Vatican II). They know that to be Catholic means we must remain inside the barque of Peter, however stormy the seas. They plead not against the new Mass but for the form they love, that feeds and inspires them — indeed, to the point that they constitute a visible proportion of those who go on to become creators of new art and beauty in which the world shares and celebrates. This is why the Latin Mass has attracted the support of nonbelievers who understand its crucial role in the creation of Western civilization.
14 comments:
from en.news
Monsignor Marian Eleganti, OSB, a former auxiliary bishop of Chur, Switzerland, distinguishes the Second Vatican Council, which called itself a pastoral assembly, from previous dogmatic councils (Marian-Eleganti.ch, 30 June).
Already as a 20-year-old Benedictine novice, he noticed that many passages of the Pastoral Council were open to interpretation, had a strong character of compromise and ambiguity.
"As an altar server, I experienced how brutally and excessively a liturgical reform was imposed, which was neither intended by the Council Fathers nor to be deduced from the texts," he writes: "It was the commissions (Archbishop Bugnini) who were at work, not the Council Fathers".
Some of the Council Fathers went home in order to interpret the leeway offered by the Council texts as broadly as possible.
The bishop concludes that "we can no longer go forward" with the generation of that time, including John Paul II and Benedict XVI [and Francis], because "today's young faithful, as I could see as a youth bishop, don't know the Council and are not interested in it. They have hardly read the text, but they are attracted by the old liturgy without being ideological".
According to Eleganti, there is a clear "conservative" turn in the young clergy as a reaction to the last 50 years of "Church reform".
GOT THAT? YOUNGER CATHOLICS AREN'T INTERESTED IN IDEOLOGY. They just want some truth and beauty. Why's it so dang hard to give it to 'em?
"YOUNGER CATHOLICS AREN'T INTERESTED IN IDEOLOGY."
According to Eleganti, they also aren't interested in what the Church said in the Documents of the Second Vatican Council. "...today's young faithful, as I could see as a youth bishop, don't know the Council and are not interested in it."
How nice it must be to choose to be ignorant...
POOR FRMJK, such an old foggy or is it foegy? Newsflash, younger Catholics who are engaged with the Church, are not seeking to become nones or just spiritual disconnected from the physical Church, don't give a flip about the concerns of the Church's bishops during the post-war 1940's and 50's. They are concerned with the past 10 to 50 years after a Council that they don't intend to study or worse yet to worship.
Newsflash, these younger Catholics when exposed to the TLM love it and want to learn more about it and want to participate in an actual/active way. They know way too much about the deformations of the Mass these past 50 years, deformations much greater than anything that deformed the TLM prior to Vatican II.
And newsflash! About 99.9% of practicing Catholics don't give a flip, or more earthy, sh*t about the synodality or the synod on the synod.
It's not ignorance, but an educated choice given what them have experienced of Vatican II, or should I say, its spirit.
Talk about the cancellations of Pontificates. That is, the Pontificates/legacies of Popes Saint John XXIII, Saint Paul VI, Blessed John Paul I, Saint John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, are tied to the Council directly.
Certain folks have accused Pope Francis, for example, of having "cancelled" the Pontificates of Popes Saint John Paul II, as well as Benedict XVI. To dismiss the Council is to "cancel" said Pontificates.
Anyway, the Council has had a dramatic impact upon the Church. The folks who dismiss the Council are unaware of the beautiful manner in which the Council has presented the Faith in our time.
Contrary to the indifference attributed to those who have dismissed the Council, Pope (Emeritus) Benedict XVI declared that Vatican II "proved to be not only meaningful, but necessary."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Hold a class or several classes on the Documents of Vatican II and see how many young people, or people of any age, flock to these classes. They don't care about it. But have classes on how to pray, allow Jesus to transform your life and be a good Catholic in the world, as Vatican II taught was the role of the laity, they may come, but nothing is guaranteed!
"They are concerned with the past 10 to 50 years after a Council that they don't intend to study or worse yet to worship."
I think a book has been written about this unfortunate situation: "The Closing of the American Mind."
"Newsflash, these younger Catholics when exposed to the TLM love it and want to learn more about it and want to participate in an actual/active way."
Yes, they LOVE it, as they love Tayor Swift, vaping, and anything else that seems shiny and new.
"It's not ignorance, but an educated choice given what them have experienced of Vatican II,...
Yes, it is ignorance as Eleganti said, ""...today's young faithful, as I could see as a youth bishop, don't know the Council and are not interested in it.""
They DON'T KNOW and AREN'T INTERESTED. Since this is your M.O., I'm not surprised you find it laudable.
I agree that "nobody" cares about Vatican II in the following sense:
As Pope Pius XI stated, "For people are instructed in the truths of faith, and brought to appreciate the inner joys of religion far more effectually by the annual celebration of our sacred mysteries than by any official pronouncement of the teaching of the Church.'
"Such pronouncements usually reach only a few and the more learned among the faithful..."
======
In that sense, "nobody" cares about Vatican II, Vatican I, Trent...about that which Pope Benedict XVI declared in 2005 A.D., or Pope Saint Paul VI's 1967 A.D Encyclical Populorum Progressio. That applies certainly to young Catholics.
Catholics may, for example, have zero interest in Vatican II/all of the above. However, that does negate the fact that Vatican II/all of the above have impacted the Church.
But for the majority of Catholics who assist at Mass, their focus is upon today. Their focus is not upon Pope Saint John Paul II's 1995 A.D. Encyclical Ut Unum Sint, or Vatican II.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
The sheer level of out-of-touchness to which people will go to dismiss what they refuse understand. Comparing (and yes, it's a comparison) the average lay Catholic's attachment to the TLM, or lack of obsession with the Council, to addiction to vaping or the hysteria around Taylor Swift merely betrays a complete lack of understanding of every single one of those objects. It epitomizes the meme of, "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong!"
God forbid young people be drawn into church. God, give me a hundred young men willing to serve at Mass and discern the priesthood because it's "cool". It's laughable to say they shouldn't, simply because they're drawn to it for the wrong reason. News flash--people can think things are cool, and can appreciate it for more than that or grow to have that appreciation. And where's the accompaniment? It completely ignores that one can be pulled in for shallow reasons and stay because they have discovered something more--think of the crowds drawn to Jesus for his miraculous healings and stayed because He offered so much more.
How many people have been moved to conversion by the beauty of a piece of sacred music? "Bah, they're just responding based on their emotions!" Really? I know many people who've converted from Protestant churches that have gone too far in rejecting truth (e.g., accepting same-sex "marriage,"). What is to be said--"welcome home" or "you should've been moved by reasons I have deemed acceptable according to my standards, not culture wars!"?
Lord, save us from the crabbiness that dismisses people being drawn to God and the Church for anything other than "acceptable" reasons.
Nick
Monsignor Marian Eleganti, OSB, said..."As an altar server, I experienced how brutally and excessively a liturgical reform was imposed, which was neither intended by the Council Fathers nor to be deduced from the texts," he writes: "It was the commissions (Archbishop Bugnini) who were at work, not the Council Fathers".
Compare the above to the following from Pope Saint John Paul II:
"Pope Paul VI instituted a . Later the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, and they carried out the task entrusted to them with generosity, competence and promptness."
"The reform of the rites and the liturgical books was undertaken immediately after the promulgation of the Constitution and was brought to an effective conclusion in a few years thanks to the considerable and self less work of a large number of experts and bishops from all parts of the world."
"This work was undertaken in accordance with the conciliar principles of fidelity to tradition and openness to legitimate development, and so it is possible to say that the reform of the Liturgy is strictly traditional and in accordance with the ancient usage of the holy Fathers".
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Monsignor Marian Eleganti, OSB...
The bishop concludes that "we can no longer go forward" with the generation of that time, including John Paul II and Benedict XVI [and Francis], because "today's young faithful, as I could see as a youth bishop, don't know the Council and are not interested in it."
=======
"We can no longer go forward" with Popes Saint John Paul II, as well as Francis? Who determined that? Certainly not the Church.
By the way, as he is Pope, how on earth do we "go forward" without Pope Francis?
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Monsignor Marian Eleganti, OSB...has concluded that "we can no longer go forward" with the generation of that time, including John Paul II and Benedict XVI [and Francis], because "today's young faithful, as I could see as a youth bishop, don't know the Council and are not interested in it."
Monsignor Marian Eleganti is not alone in his "cancellations" of the above Pontificates. Popes Saint John Paul II, as well as Benedict XVI, had/have fierce critics within and without the Church. Pope Francis has fierce critics within, and without, the Church.
But I find it preposterous to "cancel" the above Popes based upon disinterest/ignorance in regard to Vatican II.
Young Catholics are clueless supposedly in regard to Vatican II — the Council's history as well as texts. Therefore, how are said folks able to comment intelligently upon the Council?
How are they able to discuss intelligently the manners in which Popes Saint John Paul II, Benedict XVI, as well as Francis, had/have implemented the Council?
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Ah, there's Ol' Nick at it again.
This time, Nikki, you're RIGHT, at least in part.
Error: Fr. ALLAN McDonald weren't speaking about the "average lay Catholic" as you have wrongly concluded. We very specifically were speaking about, "...these younger Catholics..." as Eleganti had.
Correct: Yes, I DID compare the attachment of these young Catholics to the so-called TLM, to Swift, and to vaping.
Error: I do very well understand the differences between "every single one of these objects." I also understand the appeal of the "shiny and new."
Error: That I don't understand that motivations can be purified. Of course they can, including yours.
Error: Thinking that we should use the so-callled TLM to draw people in. The mass is not a tool or an enticement.
Father Kavanaugh, I think you might be missing the point.
Error: The erroneous belief that the TLM is an "enticement" being used or under consideration as an "enticement".
If what my experience tells me and if what the literature has been saying for years is true, the TLM is the anti-enticement. It needs no promotions, nor does it need anything added to it. Offer that Mass and people come.
From its highly questionable inception, the New Mass has been used as an "enticement". We still have USCCB officials and Vatican careerists who say the quiet part out loud: This Mass was contrived with the intention of not offending Protestants and luring more young people. Well, as that bald therapist on TV likes to say, "How's that workin' for you?"
The Traditionalists? The answer is in the 5th Chapter of Acts: "And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought; But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God."
Seamus,
I would recommend not expending your time and words on this subject. If it doesn't meet the demanding standards of a superannuated priest in charge of a medium-sized parish who believes that anything that doesn't originate from the 1970s should be dismissed out out of hand, it shouldn't even be considered, let alone attempted. And if it means managing the decline of the Church until it goes the way of the bowling club, oh well--at least we didn't instrumentalize the evangelizing potential of the beauty of the Church's rites for the purposes of... making sure there will actually be anyone attending those rites in a few decades.
Nick
Post a Comment