Young people, and I mean young, packed the Chartres Cathedral to conclude their pilgrimage. This Mass was celebrated by Cardinal Mueller on Pentecost Sunday. Some believe that the good Cardinal could be elected pope by a miracle of God.
Chartres has a ridiculously small or cube like altar clearly out of place in this magnificent cathedral. But even the cube looks good with the TLM altar arrangement, also known as the Benedictine Altar Arrangement.
And even banners look nice and are blessed being allowed to participate in a TLM in this magnificent cathedral. Kudos to the banners! Even they are elevated by a TLM!
Here are a few photos which show the original altar designed for the TLM in the background:
30 comments:
That the absurd indignity of seating grown men on the floor about the feet of some hierarch should be continued is disheartening, to say the least.
Oh Father! As Sylvester’s son would say, your outrage is misplaced, to saw the least. Your outrage energy would be better used calling out actual obscured indignity which continues to this day and is disheartening, to say the least, not what offends you though:
http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/06/some-examples-of-liturgical-abuse.html
"Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he marked how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, “When you are invited by any one to a marriage feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest a more eminent man than you be invited by him; and he who invited you both will come, and say to you, ‘Give place to this man,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, go up higher’; then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Praise God for a liturgy that we do not fit to our preferences, but rather one to which we conform ourselves, even if it means exercising humility in the face of egregious indignities.
Nick
I’m outraged that priests and bishops who vote for abortion as healthcare aren’t excommunicated and degraded from the priesthood. They should not be anywhere near the Sacred Host!
I have followed this event for several years, though not in person. I believe this was the biggest pilgrimage to Chartres yet. The youth were out in droves and it is likely that the average age of the crowd was <20 years old. My questions: How can HFPF and his gang ignore this? Is he honestly going to say to the 20+ thousand in Chartres that their clinging to conservativism and tradition is suicidal thinking? Seriously? HFPF is so completely out of touch it is laughable.
We have a National Eucharistic Pilgrimage going on in the USA. Does Francis even know about it? The German Church is in schism for all intents and purpose yet he slams the US Catholic Church? He is almost as nonsensical as Joe Biden was speaking to graduates at Morehouse College in Atlanta. Absolutely lost and clueless.
Among other aspects of the "traditional" liturgy, sitting on the floor is a posture adopted from the royal courts of the past. As such, it has little or nothing to do with the Church's mission of proclaiming the Kingdom of God.
BUT, because it is "traditional," is must be defended by people like Ol' Nick who quotes a passage from Scripture that is wholly unrelated to the floor-sitting practice. If there's no good reason for some practice, then we'll just make one up!
Tom,
They don't ignore such things, they just think to themselves, "Now how can we make sure it never happens again? Engaging young people in the Faith in the tens of thousands is just too much!" As was commented around here it one point, it's very concerning when young people see the TLM and think it's cool.
FWIW, Cardinal Tagle (of supposed papabile-ity, and more recently, financial questions and removal from Vatican roles) is being sent as an envoy to the Eucharistic Congress.
As for the Church in the US, it is clearly suicidally conservative, unlike the German Church, which is much more in line with proper Catholicism because it, without fail, professes and advocates for un-Catholic positions.
War is peace; freedom is slavery; truth is double-plus ungood.
Nick
I recall a history professor of mine at a public university, who was a retired WWII Air Corp Captain, talking of visiting Chartre via flying over and spotting the Cathedral and landing on the road to look at the thing. He was so impressed by it, he became a history major and professor of Western Civilization, who realized what shaped that civilization, and whose suprise final written exam was, "Tell me about Christianity, from its origins, up to and including the 15th century."
Had he seen that modernist Bauhaus box altar on pedestal, he undoubtedly would have assumed it some Nazi profanation.
FRMJK, you unwittingly give an excellent apologetic for what you dislike, i.e "sitting on the floor is a posture adopted from the royal courts." The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is meant to point to the Kingdom of Heaven, where Christ is King, Our Blessed Mother is Queen and all the angels and saints are a part of their eternal Royal Court! You noticed that in the TLM photos I post, but then you show how little you know about heaven and the Royal Court there. You prefer to jettison a tradition of the culture of our Roman Church because you prefer a vision that is purely "now" and not eternal, that is horizontal and not vertical, that is banal, not magnificent and beautiful. It is monarchy, royalty and kingdom redeem and made perfect in heaven.
Fr. AJM,
What a beautiful thing it is to worship at the altar of our King.
I'm also put in mind of our Lord's teaching that we must become like little children to enter the Kingdom. I'm sure children sat at the feet of Jesus when he would teach. Heck, a lot of priests these days at "children's Masses" have chosen a spot to sit in the sanctuary surrounded by children during the homily. How undignified! And the people who heard Jesus preach and were fed the loaves and the fishes sat down on the grass. The undignity of it all!
Nick
The important question concerns the amount of "traditional" Catholics present at Chartres who have not weaponized the TLM against God and His Church.
By "weaponized," I mean "traditionalists" who are at war, for example, with the Council, Papal authority, as well as the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Father McDonald, for example, has insisted that the overwhelming amount of "traditionalists" are not at war with the Council, Papal authority, as well as the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
However, there are "traditionalists" here who have insisted with glee that the overwhelming amount of "traditionalists" are at war with the Council, Papal authority, as well as the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Said "traditionalists" here have also insisted with glee that the overwhelming amount of priests who offer the TLM are at war with the Council, Papal authority, as well as the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Leading "traditionalists" on a national basis have agreed in positive fashion with the above claims. Such folks as Michael Matt (The Remnant), who has long participated in the Chartes Pilgrimage, wish us to embrace the above.
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If Father is correct, then all is well in regard to the Chartes Pilgrimage.
However, if "traditionalists," here and elsewhere are correct in regard to the topic in question, then we have a major problem in regard to the TLM Movement — in Chartes, and points elsewhere.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
My mistake...it not a Bauhaus box on a pedestal, but a Bauhaus box on a Babylonian ziggurat, which makes it even more a Nazi profanation.
I am glad Prof. Schmidt never saw Chartres that way, he might never have become the professor of Western Civilization he became. Imagine today a modern public university professor proclaiming Western Civilization was Christian Civilization. They could not, as world and Church ever more dictatorial and suppressive.
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - Adopting elements of European royal courts such as calling cardinals "princes of the Church" has nothing to do with the work of proclaiming the Kingdom of God. It had everything to do with looking royal, pretending to be an earthly power on par, or greater than, the other earthly powers.
The Kingdom of heaven has nothing in common with trappings of the kingdoms of the earth. Ermine, jeweled gloves and miters, titles such as monsignor (my Lord), etc., are all the accoutrements of temporal rulers and are distractions.
Harrison Butker stated that "bishops once had adoring crowds of people kissing their rings and taking in their every word, but now...when a bishop of a diocese or the bishop's conference as a whole puts out an important document on this matter or that, nobody even takes a moment to read it, let alone follow it."
That constitutes anti-traditional behavior as Holy Mother Church has guaranteed that bishops, in communion with Pope Francis, teach in Jesus Christ's authority. He who has heard said bishops have heard Jesus Christ.
Therefore, we are compelled to embrace our bishops' authority to teach, govern, and sanctify us.
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Do Chartes Pilgrims conduct themselves in the horrific, anti-traditional, anti-Catholic fashion as Harrison Butker described above? If the Chartes Pilgrims are true "traditional" Catholics, then the answer is "no."
That means that each Chartes Pilgrim accepts, for example, his, or her, bishop's implementation of official documents.
For example, when a bishop implements a document that Pope Francis has promulgated, then each Chartes Pilgrim accepts said bishop's teaching in question.
I pray that the above applies to each Chartes Pilgrim. If that is the case, then each Chartes Pilgrim is on board with our bishops who teach in communion with our Holy Father.
Therefore, each Chartes Pilgrim is on board, for example, with Vatican II, Papal authority, as well as the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul vi.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Additional good news related to the Chartes Pilgrimage:
-- It had been with Pope Francis' approval that God was worshiped at Chartes via the 1962 A.D. Roman liturgical books.
-- During Masses in question at Chartes, Pope Francis was commemorated as our orthodox Pope. The Chartes Pilgrims assented to said commemoration of Pope Francis.
-- In turn, talk that Pope Francis is unorthodox, or not even Pope, has been rejected by clergy, religious, and faithful, among Chartes Pilgrims.
-- Certain folks who post here have spoken often against the Council, Papal authority/Pope Francis, as well as the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Conversely, if the Chartes Pilgrims have presented themselves in honest fashion, then said traditionalists have rejected the above vicious attacks in question.
Therefore, certain folks in question who post here are out of touch, tremendously so, with the Chartes Pilgrims.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
FRMJK, what kind of neo/Gnostic knowledge do you have about this that no one else has and do you declare it from your chair and is it a dogma that boxes you in and you can’t see beyond and thus it is suicidal? Just wondering. I never heard your infallible statement framed in such a way from Christ the King, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven or any other member of the royal court of heaven.
And certainly those seated below the footstool of Christ the King must have something to say about this contrary to your declaration!
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - Of course you give us the usual meaningless blather that we've come to expect from a priest who has told us repeatedly how useless his seminary education was.
Anytime a church has become too cozy with worldly ways, there has been a negative impact on the church and/or the larger community. Church of England.... Greek Orthodoxy.... Russian Orthodoxy was once under the thumb of the politburo, now Putin calls the shots. The buddy/buddy relationship between oppressive central and south American regimes and many of the archbishops of those countries derailed our Church's commitment to the poor and the marginalized.
FRMJK, You failed to recognize that in heaven, the heavenly court is redeemed and perfect. Perhaps this is too much for you to comprehend, the redemption our Lord hath roth for this world and the next.
I, for one, appreciate Fr. AJM's humility in recognizing the poor quality of seminary education in decades past. I also haven't once earnestly heard him speak of how sophisticated he is to support his positions.
Nick
FMK, you have received such a rhetorical, righteous beat down here - the kind where one walks away from a sword fight, looks down, and finds that one is bleeding profusely. Go home and pray.
And MT, what you have written on this post is not unlike your comments on basically every other post, where you extoll the virtues of the Pope, in effect how perfect he is (of course he is not, being human and broken like the rest of us). Christ, not the Pope, is the center of the Church, the true Good Shepherd - He is to be followed, loved, and adored.
Read what you have written, for goodness sake. Your comments about PF approach true papal idolatry, papal worship. Your words read like you are in a trance, following blindly, without thought, like a lemming or mindless minion. I doubt all the Chartes Pilgrims are the lemmings you portray.
Catholics are not required to shut off our brains. Is this your position?
There is no way to look at PF and his repeated attacks and rants against conservative Catholics, the American church, and those who love the TLM without seeing that he is creating disunity, sowing confusion.
This is quite contrary to his supposed, expressed desire within Traditionis Custodes to create unity. His continued attacks on people he doesn't agree with (what a way to create peace and unity) are dividing the church. He doesn't miss a chance to bash those he disagrees with.
MT, I have been attending TLM whenever I can, in three different parts of the country, for five years and I have never seen the "gleeful" folks you spoke of earlier - not a single one. And this is with social engagement with the parishioners, educational events, etc. There are folks posting harshly on blogs, but you make the typical mistake of lumping everyone in the same bucket. You should be ashamed.
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - "Eye has not seen." (1 Cor 2:9)
If heaven is a royal court with trappings and behaviors from the monarchies of Europe, I'm not interested.
If divine "majesty" as you understand it includes the "...royal court-like qualities of the Traditional Latin Mass in its most solemn pontifical form..." then you need remedial eschatology and soteriology classes to make up for the worthless ones you've told us you had in your seminary formation.
Pig - Maybe in your book silliness, McDonald Word Salad, TJM's continual delusional outbursts constitute a "righteous beatdown," but they don't in mine. Heck, by those standards, you'd have concluded Wellington lost at Waterloo.
Fr. MIkEy,
TJM has one comment consisting of two sentences in this whole thread. I suspect that woundedpig isn't referring to that comment. Then again, it may be that you are simply impervious to being wrong. It's probably that sophisticated 1970s seminary education helping there.
Nick
No, Nick, I was referring to Father McDonald’s wise and insightful explanation of the concept of horizontal vs vertical orientation when celebrating the Holy Mass, along with the humility and solemnity being demonstrated by those participating in the Mass.
Pig - There's nothing especially "wise and insightful" about understanding that our liturgy has both horizontal and vertical orientations. Anyone who has studied liturgy understands the dual elements. That person also understands that maintaining a balance is what the truly wise and insightful celebrant seeks
The notion that sitting on the floor is particularly solemn just makes me laugh. It's sloppy. it's degrading, it's a sad imitation of European royal court behavior. And, most importantly, it has nothing to do with proclaiming the reign of God.
A predictable comment coming from you. You clearly don't understand or appreciate Father M's point of view. What hasn't changed is that you seem unable to persuade anyone of the correctness of your viewpoints, at least for the majority of the folks who frequent this blog.
Pig - I very much appreciate Fr. ALLAN McDonald point of view. As I have stated, the vertical and horizontal aspects of the mass are, both of them, equally essential in understanding what God is doing for us in the liturgy and what we are doing for God in the liturgy.
As for being "unable to persuade anyone of the correctness of your viewpoints" for folks who post on this blog, well, don't make me laugh.
Folks who post on this blog believe, among other things:
The last presidential election was stolen from Trump
Quo Primum (Pius V 1570) forbids forever ANY changes to the liturgy
Laymen and women as lectors lead the congregation to think that the congregation is
procaliming the Word of God to itself
Pope Francis is a Marxist, a communist, a hater of America, demented, etc etc etc
George Soros pays me and millions of others to hold the position we hold
Bugnini deliberately sought to transform the liturgy from a Catholic Mass to a Protestant
service
That Catholics are OBLIGED to reject Darwinian Evolution and that Catholic are OBLIGED
to believe that Adam and Eve were the literal, historical first parents of all
subsequent humans
ETC.
So, while I regret that some people are simply disconnected from reality, I am not particularly concerned that I can't convince some people of the rectitude of my positions.
At least we can be thankful that we have you as the blog's self appointed, unelected conscience and final arbiter of truth. Where would we be without you?
Piglet, I am no final arbiter of truth. That's nothing but deflection on your part, what people do when they have no real arguments to present.
There are many things you should be thankful for. I bet you can come up with a few more with just a smidgen of effort.
I've never had such a demeaning or rude conscience, but here we are. Fish rots from the head down and all that.
Nick
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