If Pope Francis had only received the Dubia Cardinals with the same humility that he has received the fraternal correction of the Bishops of the Ukrainian Church, all 45 having an audience with the pope!
I think Pope Francis’ papacy would be in a much better place today if he had exercised the same humility with the Dubia Cardinals, But alas. But at least the Holy Spirit, on His own time, has allowed for the correction of this Pontiff!
Money byte from Saturday morning’s Vatican News Website:
On the sidelines of a press conference, Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, spoke to Vatican News about the work of the Synod and about the support shown by the Pope for Ukraine.
Q: From the audience you had with Pope Francis, what is the most important for you?
The Holy Father is with us, and we manifested our Catholicity, our full and visible communion with the successor of Peter. And with that communion, with that good news, we are coming back home.
I admired the humility of Pope Francis. He was well aware of his own faults, his own not very clear expressions. And he corrected himself. To be able to correct yourself in the presence of your brother bishops - that is a sign of deep humility.
And among other things, he wished to listen to us, not only to myself, to the head of the Church, but he gave a possibility, an open floor, for each one of 45 bishops to speak out in behalf of the simple, wounded, disappointed people of Ukraine.
And this mutual dialogue, a capability to listen to, ministry of listening, was something which for us, wounded by the war, was a healing moment.
18 comments:
Father, the very words you quote from the Ukrainian Bishop is precisely what the Holy Father is trying to have the Church look into in the synod on synodality. A dialogue which is fruitful between the different members of the Church. I suspect that the Ukrainian Bishops didn't try to back the Holy Father into a corner which is either heresy or another very specific view. My guess is that they addressed him with humility and concern ...just like the FSSP priests did that met with him not long after his restrictions on the 1962 missal.
Indeed Carter that is the way to go. I have often wondered if the Dubai Cardinals approached the pope privately only to be rebuffed which led to the public request.
Father McDonald said..."If Pope Francis had only received the Dubia Cardinals with the same humility that he has received the fraternal correction of the Bishops of the Ukrainian Church, all 45 having an audience with the pope!"
Father McDonald, there is a tremendous difference between the game that the Dubia Cardinals had attempted to play with Pope Francis versus the humble, charitable manner, in which the Bishops of the UGCC had displayed toward Pope Francis.
Pope Francis had been warned by Churchmen not to respond to the Dubia, which had been designed to trap Pope Francis. But Pope Francis had known that. Therefore, Pope Francis was wise to have ignored the Dubia.
Incredibly, Cardinal Burke, had revealed (almost certainly in unwitting fashion) that the Dubia had been designed to lead Pope Francis into a certain direction to obtain the answers that the Dubia Cardinals had planned to receive.
Michael J. Matt (The Remnant): "So, is it even possible for you to envision a scenario whereby you suddenly discover that you've missed something, that the Four Cardinals are misinterpreting it, and that you'd have to concede you were wrong?
"I mean if that’s not possible, then what is the point of the dubia? Don’t you already know the answers to your five questions?
Cardinal Burke: "Certainly we do."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark, let me refresh your memory. These cardinals posed the dubia questions to the pope directly and privately. The pope could have privately met with the four cardinals to discuss their concerns. Rather, the Holy Father chose a passive aggressive approach, he ignored them. That then provoked an unfortunate reaction toward the Holy Father, an active aggressive move, of making their questions known in the external forum, not the internal forum they desired.
And herein lies the problem with this pope. He provokes reactions toward him, both negative and positive but mostly negative.
If you want a good refresher course on the events, you can read the Nation Catholic Register’s reporting on it in 2016. I will post a link. But basically the dubia relate to what progressives want to accomplish with the various synods now open to lay voting for the first time. It is to allow the blessings of adulterous unions of heterosexuals and the blessings of members of the so-called LGBTQ+++ communities. The smoke screen that Archbishop Fernandez uses is that the blessings should not appear to be a marital blessing—that a joke of course, what this small step will do is to lead to illicit nuptial liturgies in the Church to confirm civil marriages and open them to Holy Communion. Pope Francis even became angry with Cardinal Ladaria when the good cardinal told the Germans that they could not bless sin.
It is clear that this pope’s pastoral theology which he wants to make a doctrine is to bless sexual sins and institutionalize that blessing of sin by removing sexual acts of any kind from the realm of sinfulness. That should be questioned and thank God for the dubia cardinals and the Holy Spirit working through them.
Here is a portion of the Register’s article in 2016:
As the Pope decided not to respond to the dubia, the four signatories said they read “his sovereign decision as an invitation to continue the reflection and the discussion, calmly and with respect,” and therefore have decided to inform “the entire people of God about our initiative and offering all of the documentation.”
MT, and let me remind you that the head of the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine, publicly called out the pope on how he was making a mess out of Russia’s envision of their country, several times, well before the bishops met in Rome for their Greek Catholic Synod, which is how synods should be done, btw. The pope’s latest outrage toward the Ukrainians had to do with the pope speaking to Russia youth and telling them to respect Russia’s conquering heritage!
The public remarks of Greek Catholic Ukrainian bishops clergy, laity, as well as governmental officials led to the pope’s acknowledgment of wrong doing in language that then afflicted the besieged Ukrainian people.
But here’s the Register’s full article on the dubia debacle by the pope:
https://www.ncregister.com/news/four-cardinals-formally-ask-pope-for-clarity-on-amoris-laetitia
Carter, as now I have refreshed my memory on the Dubia and four cardinals who poses them, they did go privately to him first only to be ignored. The pope could have had a private dialogue with them but he chose not to but then the pope constantly talks about listening and dialogue. There is obvious a disconnect and hypocrisy here with the pope. Cardinals are suppose to be close advisors to the pope and originally this was the intent and originally in the internal forum. If the pope had met with them, it may never have become the public spectacle that it became.
In terms of listening, what bishop, priest or deacons doesn’t know what a significant number of lay and clerical Catholics believe about sex outside of marriage, same sex marriages, female priests and deacons. Yes, a significant number have no problem with these things. As it concerns sex or anything else they don’t believe in sin, Orginal or actual that left unrepentant could lead to hell. They don’t believe in hell and may not believe in heaven, so why not have a pagan approach to sexual issues to include the paganization of the priesthood by having priestesses?
Archbishop Fernandez actually said recently that cultural trends that have now informed Catholics may well be the Holy Spirit informing the Church and we need to listen to the voices of dissenting Catholics on these topics and change our teachings accordingly.
Father McDonald said..."Mark, let me refresh your memory. These cardinals posed the dubia questions to the pope directly and privately."
Pope Francis was wise not to have responded privately (or publicly) to the dubia. As Cardinal Müller had noted, one senior Church official after another had denounced the dubia.
The questions were designed to trap...to force Pope Francis into certain answers that the Dubia Cardinals were determined to have received from His Holiness. Any answer not to their liking would have enabled the Dubia Cardinals to have pounced upon Pope Francis/his answers.
Here is a Catholic News Agency story in regard to the dubia:
-- Cardinal Müller: There's no problem with doctrine in 'Amoris laetitia'
Vatican City, Jan 9, 2017
"The Vatican's doctrinal head has challenged several cardinals' public questioning of the doctrinal validity of Amoris laetitia, saying the document is "very clear" on doctrine, and that making the discussion public is harmful to the Church."
"Everyone, above all the cardinals of the Roman Church, have a right to write a letter to the Pope. However, I was amazed because this was made public, almost forcing the Pope to say yes or no..."
"I don't like this," he said, adding that "it does damage to the Church to discuss these things publicly."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Of course, Mark, since then the Holy Spirit has led Cardinal Mueller to publicly challenge the pope and what Muller calls a “hostile take over” of it. Either you are open to the synodal way, of talking, asking questions and demanding answers or you’re not And either you see the Holy Spirit in all of this or not. Where do you stand MT?
Here’s a great example for Pope Francis about meeting people with whom he disagrees. The example is set by Pope Benedict XVI:
https://www.dw.com/en/pope-meets-dissident-theologian-for-talks/a-1722900
Father McDonald said..."Carter, as now I have refreshed my memory on the Dubia and four cardinals who poses them, they did go privately to him first only to be ignored."
Yes. Pope Francis had received the letter privately. He was wise to have "ignored" the attempt to trap him into offering responses that Dubia Cardinals were determined to have received from Pope Francis.
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Father McDonald said..."The pope could have had a private dialogue with them but he chose not to but then the pope constantly talks about listening and dialogue. Cardinals are suppose to be close advisors to the pope and originally this was the intent and originally in the internal forum."
The questions were designed to trap Pope Francis. A trap, rather than a charitable dialogue, had been designed for Pope Francis.
The Dubia Cardinals created the "public spectacle" in question.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald, I recalled vividly Pope Benedict XVI's meeting with Father Hans Küng.
Pope Benedict XVI was not the rigid right-wing reactionary as he had often been portrayed.
Unfortunately, more than a few right-wingers had denounced Pope Benedict XVI's refusal to have condemned Father Küng. It is a shame that certain folks could not accept the fact that Pope Benedict XVI was progressive as well as orthodox.
But given the following, nobody should have been surprised in regard to Pope Benedict XVI's favorable treatment of the supposed "heretical" Father Küng:
Pope Benedict XVI's favorable comments in regard to Father Teilhard de Chardin. Pope Benedict XVI declared:
"The role of the priesthood is to consecrate the world so that it may become a living host, a liturgy: so that the liturgy may not be something alongside the reality of the world, but that the world itself shall become a living host, a liturgy."
"This is also the great vision of Teilhard de Chardin: in the end we shall achieve a true cosmic liturgy, where the cosmos becomes a living host."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald said..."Here’s a great example for Pope Francis about meeting people with whom he disagrees. The example is set by Pope Benedict XVI."
Would Pope Saint John Paul II serve as a poor example in regard to the above? Example: Time and again for 25 years, Father Küng had requested audiences with Pope Saint John Paul II.
Pope Saint John Paul II had refused each time to respond to Father Küng's requests in question.
Conversely, Pope Benedict XVI was keen to have meet, in positive fashion, with Father Küng.
In 2005 A.D., there was the following news report:
The Italian media have reacted positively to Pope Benedict's willingness to talk to the Vatican's doctrinal opponents.
The Milan newspaper Corriere della Sera wrote:
"The Pope's meetings with Bernard Fellay and Hans Kung have not resolved any issues, but have broken the ice in which Pope John Paul II had frozen contacts with dissident sections of Catholicism for a quarter of a century."
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Father McDonald, perhaps in regard to "meeting people with whom he disagrees," Pope Francis has, as compared to Pope Benedict, favored Pope Saint John Paul II's style in question.
:-)
Pax.
Mark Thomas
St. John Paul II was a great intellect, no one with a brain would mistake PF for a great intellect.
MT,
You spent so much of your afternoon assembling these posts.
Would be great to simply hear from you, PF was wrong, he took criticism with humility, he corrected himself and showed great solidarity with Ukraine as a result.
Father McDonald, to follow up on a story related to this thread: Nine days ago, you had posted the following story:
https://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2023/09/yikes-ouch-and-truth-spoken-that.html
YIKES, OUCH, AND THE TRUTH SPOKEN, THAT TRANSCENDS UKRAINE, ABOUT THIS POPE…
"Read this Crux article and think about it, I provide a sound byte below the title:
Sep 9, 2023
ROME – A senior advisor to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has labeled Pope Francis as “pro-Russian” and “not credible,” flatly rejecting any prospect that the Vatican might play mediating role in the current Russian war in the country.
"The advisor also suggested that the pope’s line on the war may be influenced by Russian investments in the Vatican bank. Pope Francis “unknowingly is cancelling the reputation of the Holy See,” said Mykhailo Podolyak in an interview with Ukraine’s Channel 24 news service on Friday.
“It doesn’t make sense to speak of a mediator called the pope if he assumes a pro-Russian position, which is evident to everyone,” Podolyak said."
=========================================================
-- The bishops of the UGCC have rejected the absurd claim that His Holiness is pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian.
-- The Bishops of the UGCC, contrary to Mykhailo Podolyak, have insisted that Pope Francis is close spiritually to the Ukrainian people.
-- The Bishops of the UGCC, in contrast to Mykhailo Podolyak, declared that Pope Francis is “the universal voice of truth and justice.”
-- Debunked: Mykhailo Podolyak's absurd claim that Pope Francis supposed pro-Russian stance has been influenced by Russian investments in the Vatican bank.
-- His Beatitude Sviatoslav declared that Ukrainian ambassadors to the Holy See and to Italy had informed him that Mykhailo Podolyak's comments in question did not represent the attitude of the Ukrainian government.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
The misrepresentation of Pope Francis via the false narratives that he favored Russian imperialism — that he is against Ukrainians — has shattered his reputation among many within the UGCC/Ukraine.
There are certain folks, including, unfortunately, Catholics, who are quick to believe that which has been concocted to damage this or that person's reputation/good name.
Example:
Pope Francis is rotten and arrogant, according to certain folks. Said folks are keen to believe that narrative. It does not matter that countless folks who have interacted with Pope Francis, such as the Bishops of the UGCC, have testified that Pope Francis is holy, humble man. That has not dissuaded the folks in question from having believed the worst in regard to the Vicar of Christ.
But His Holiness is not the first Pope to have fallen victim to lies. Within and without the Church, false narratives have portrayed:
-- Pope Benedict XVI as a Vatican II modernist...others have promoted the false narrative that he was an aloof, rigid, right-wing reactionary.
-- Archbishop Lefebvre, among others, insisted that Pope Saint John Paul II was a liberal apostate..others have portrayed Pope Saint John Paul II as a rigid, right-wing reactionary.
-- Pope Venerable Pius XII has been labeled "Hitler's Pope."
It may require an Apostolic Visit to Ukraine to unlock the majority of the UGCC's Faithful, as well as additional Ukrainians, from the false anti-Pope Francis narrative to which they are attached.
In the meantime, the holy Bishops of the UGCC, in humble fashion, have recognized the false nature of the narrative that has portrayed His Holiness as having favored Russian imperialism so as to crush Ukraini.
The holy bishops in question have pledged their determination to assure their spiritual children that Pope Francis loves and stands with the UGCC/Ukrainians.
May the Faithful of the UGCC open their hearts and minds to the truth — that, as the holy bishops of the UGCC have made clear — Pope Francis loves and stands with them.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Certain folks, for years, have insisted that Pope Francis accept this, or that correction...that he humble himself in regard to this or that matter.
The time has arrived that certain folks — in particular, Ukrainians/Ukrainian Greek Catholic Faithful — humble themselves to accept the following correction: Said folks have embraced the false, preposterous narrative that Pope Francis is pro-Russian imperialism/anti-Ukraine.
Conversely, the holy bishops of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church have assured their spiritual children, as well as the Ukraine and world, that:
-- Pope Francis is "the universal voice of truth and justice."
-- Pope Francis is a holy, humble man.
-- Pope Francis stands with Ukrainians.
-- Pope Francis does not support Russian imperialism.
Pope Francis, and the holy bishops of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, conducted with each other a charitable, productive meeting. The false narrative in question has been shattered.
It is time that those who had embraced that false narrative accept correction. Said folks would do well to heed the pro-Pope Francis message as proclaimed by the bishops of the UGCC.
I was convinced a couple of weeks ago that Pope Francis, and the bishops of the UGCC, would move forward together in holy, humble, productive, peaceful fashion. That has been accomplished.
I pray that the UGCC's Faithful, as well as non-Catholic Ukrainians, heed the pro-Pope Francis message of the UGCC bishops — in particular, the bishops' declaration that Pope Francis is the "the universal voice of truth and justice."
Father McDonald, thank you for your blog.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
MT = empty suit. Your posts are comedy gold!
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