Let me be candid. As a pastor and as a Catholic, it is tragic, very tragic, extremely tragic, when a man chooses the wide path to hell and then mocks the Church for telling him he as done so. Public excommunication is meant to be rare but it is also meant to be medicinal when used.
Governor Cuomo has cut himself off from the full Communion of the Church and he needs to be told so by Cardinal Dolan. As a punitive measure, but also to reassure faithful Catholics that the Governor's actions are evil and against Holy Mother Church, the governor needs to be excommunicated in order to encourage him to repent publicly and be readmitted to the full communion of the Church publicly when he has completed his acts of penance.
The former Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska once excommunicated a number of Catholics simply because they belonged to various anti-Catholic organizations. I believe that excommunication still holds under the current Bishop.
Andrew Cuomo and Cardinal DolanIt’s been a rough time for faithful Catholics recently in our state government’s frantic rush for “progressive” ideas.
I’m thinking first of the ghoulish radical abortion-expansion law, which allows for an abortion right up to the moment of birth; drops all charges against an abortionist who allows an aborted baby, who somehow survives the scissors, scalpel, saline and dismemberment, to die before his eyes; mandates that, to make an abortion more convenient and easy, a physician need not perform it; and might even be used to suppress the conscience rights of health care professionals not to assist in the grisly procedures. All this in a state that already had the most permissive abortion laws in the country.
As if that’s not enough, instead of admitting that abortion is always a tragic choice, and that life-giving alternatives should be more vigorously promoted, the governor and his “progressive” supporters celebrated signing the bill. At the governor’s command, even the lights of the Freedom Tower sparkled with delight.
Those who once told us that abortion had to remain safe, legal and rare now have made it dangerous, imposed and frequent.
Then our governor insults and caricatures the church in what’s supposed to be an uplifting and unifying occasion, his “State of the State” address.
The bishops of this state have long supported a reform of the inadequate laws around the sexual abuse of minors. Yes, we and many others expressed reservations about one element, the retroactive elimination of the civil statute of limitations, but urged dramatic reform that, in many ways, was tougher than what was being proposed by legislators. A month ago we renewed that stance, and even dropped our objections to the “look-back” section if all victims would benefit. The governor was aware of all this.
Why, then, would he use his address to blame the church, and only the church, for blocking this bill? Why would he publicly brag in a political address about his dissent from timeless and substantive church belief? Why would he quote Pope Francis out of context as an applause line to misrepresent us bishops here as being opposed to our Holy Father? Why did he reduce the sexual abuse of minors, a broad societal and cultural curse that afflicts every family, public school, religion and government program, to a “Catholic problem?”
I’m a pastor, not a politician, but I feel obliged to ask these questions, as daily do I hear them from my people, as well as colleagues from other creeds. I’ve been attacked in the past when I asked — sadly and reluctantly — if the party that my folks proudly claimed as their own, the Democrats, had chosen to alienate faithful Catholic voters. Now you know why I asked.
As an American historian, I am very aware of our state’s past record of scorn and sneers at Catholics. It used to be called “know-nothings.” Now it’s touted as “progressivism.”
Genuine progressives work to pass a “DREAM act,” a “voters rights act,” a “prison reform act,” and we pastors of the church pitch in to support them. That’s government at its best. I pray that spirit returns.
Governor Cuomo has cut himself off from the full Communion of the Church and he needs to be told so by Cardinal Dolan. As a punitive measure, but also to reassure faithful Catholics that the Governor's actions are evil and against Holy Mother Church, the governor needs to be excommunicated in order to encourage him to repent publicly and be readmitted to the full communion of the Church publicly when he has completed his acts of penance.
Thus, I applaud Cardinal Dolan for his words in this New York Post tabloid, but he must do more. He must EXCOMMUNICATE.
The former Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska once excommunicated a number of Catholics simply because they belonged to various anti-Catholic organizations. I believe that excommunication still holds under the current Bishop.
As the Democrat Party is becoming more and more anti-Catholic, will there be a day that Catholics are warned they cannot belong this party anymore for its extreme views and platforms, similar to a Catholic not being allowed to be a Nazi or a Fascist or an atheistic Communist?
New York Post, Cardinal Dolan: Why are Cuomo, Democrats alienating Catholics?
I’m thinking first of the ghoulish radical abortion-expansion law, which allows for an abortion right up to the moment of birth; drops all charges against an abortionist who allows an aborted baby, who somehow survives the scissors, scalpel, saline and dismemberment, to die before his eyes; mandates that, to make an abortion more convenient and easy, a physician need not perform it; and might even be used to suppress the conscience rights of health care professionals not to assist in the grisly procedures. All this in a state that already had the most permissive abortion laws in the country.
As if that’s not enough, instead of admitting that abortion is always a tragic choice, and that life-giving alternatives should be more vigorously promoted, the governor and his “progressive” supporters celebrated signing the bill. At the governor’s command, even the lights of the Freedom Tower sparkled with delight.
Those who once told us that abortion had to remain safe, legal and rare now have made it dangerous, imposed and frequent.
Then our governor insults and caricatures the church in what’s supposed to be an uplifting and unifying occasion, his “State of the State” address.
The bishops of this state have long supported a reform of the inadequate laws around the sexual abuse of minors. Yes, we and many others expressed reservations about one element, the retroactive elimination of the civil statute of limitations, but urged dramatic reform that, in many ways, was tougher than what was being proposed by legislators. A month ago we renewed that stance, and even dropped our objections to the “look-back” section if all victims would benefit. The governor was aware of all this.
Why, then, would he use his address to blame the church, and only the church, for blocking this bill? Why would he publicly brag in a political address about his dissent from timeless and substantive church belief? Why would he quote Pope Francis out of context as an applause line to misrepresent us bishops here as being opposed to our Holy Father? Why did he reduce the sexual abuse of minors, a broad societal and cultural curse that afflicts every family, public school, religion and government program, to a “Catholic problem?”
I’m a pastor, not a politician, but I feel obliged to ask these questions, as daily do I hear them from my people, as well as colleagues from other creeds. I’ve been attacked in the past when I asked — sadly and reluctantly — if the party that my folks proudly claimed as their own, the Democrats, had chosen to alienate faithful Catholic voters. Now you know why I asked.
As an American historian, I am very aware of our state’s past record of scorn and sneers at Catholics. It used to be called “know-nothings.” Now it’s touted as “progressivism.”
Genuine progressives work to pass a “DREAM act,” a “voters rights act,” a “prison reform act,” and we pastors of the church pitch in to support them. That’s government at its best. I pray that spirit returns.
39 comments:
I'll believe it when I see it. To do anything would risk not getting invited to the next Met gala.
Bishop Bruskewitz "excommunicated" members of :
Planned Parenthood
Society of Saint Pius X (Lefebvre Group)
Hemlock Society
Call to Action
Call to Action Nebraska
Saint Michael the Archangel Chapel
Freemasons
Job's Daughters
DeMolay
Eastern Star
Rainbow Girls
Catholics for a Free Choice
The reason I use "excommunicated" is that the canonical status of his action is in question. As Grant Gallico has written, "It could be argued that Bishop Bruskewitz's decree lacks of the rigorous requirements in clarity and precision that are necessary for the validity of penal laws."
Thanks for that list. I did not know it was that long. And yes, I thought public excommunication had to be directed to person for who it was meant. It seems that belonging to a group like this is a self-inflicted excommunication not requiring a public retraction or reconciliation.
Fake catholics who post here LOVE the status quo where the hierarchy makes noise and does nothing.
"It seems that belonging to a group like this is a self-inflicted excommunication not requiring a public retraction or reconciliation."
The only circumstance under which latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication would seem to apply is to "an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic."
Belonging to a group would seem to be far below the threshold needed for declaring a person to be "apostate, heretic, schismatic."
However, there are significant limitations on who is subject to automatic excommunication. It should also be noted that, according to law, the "accused" is always given the benefit of the doubt.
Aren't mafia members automatically excommunicated now? I'm only asking because I'm thinking of changing professions.
I stand to be corrected, but didn't Cuomo also have a "live-in" girlfriend at one time?
I remember daddy (the governor back in the 1980s and 1990s) saying he was "personally opposed" to abortion but he could not impose his views on others. Yet, without a trace of irony, at the same time daddy was personally opposed to the death penalty and imposed his views when he vetoed attempts to bring back its use in New York. SO he could impose his views on the death penalty, but not on abortion---kind confusing, isn't it?
But Father...it is all about being pastoral as Dolan said. Every case of abortion is different. The confessional is a good place to hear that anguish. All said and done, those kids aborted in the womb will all go to heaven anyways, as the pope just said, so what is the problem here? It is not that serious. After all don't women deserve the same equality as men in society? How can you possibly argue against that in this day and age?
Of course in all this the will of God is being ignored, because it is about being pastoral, about the people, not about God.
Yet the issue is theological and philosophical, something which the Church was prepared to defend against society before Vatican II; that is to say, after Vatican II the pastoral trumps the abstract as the pope keeps repeating.
Nobody is going to be excommunicated, God is love, and everybody is going to Heaven. Hallelujah!
Gene,
Of course. Even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao are there!!!!! They were just "misunderstood."
Gene. Of COURSE it's all about being "pastoral. Perversion (oh wait "clericalism" - yeah that's it) has so filled the closets of the Church, that you can't even close the doors. They have no credibility to make any moral demands. Perverts have destroyed the teaching mission of the Church. The only thing left is to tweak the teaching, which they are doing.
Gene, the ground is too cold to be rolling on it.
Governor Cuomo has four counterpunches:
1) statewide investigation of sex abuse
2) seizure of financial records as part of that investigation
3) civil rights complaint on behalf of women petitioning to be priests
4) censure of anti-gay rhetoric and sue to force gay marriage in our parishes.
Cuomo could use that to break the Dolan’s bank and even if he isn’t successful outright he can present a template the other states to attack the Church. Dolan is in a very weak position as long as he holds on to this world for his justification.
Cuomo is a hemorrhoid on the Devil's anus.
I wonder as to whether Governor Cuomo would take seriously a decree of excommunication lodged against him?
I believe that excommunicated Catholics feel justified in their having defined Holy Mother Church.
Governor Cuomo has played the Church-is-filthy card to justify his stance against God.
https://video.foxnews.com/v/5995932608001/#sp=show-clips
Governor Cuomo has played the game that right-wing Catholics have played in recent decades to justify the defiance of Holy Mother Church. That is, he has demonized Churchmen so as to pretend that he has enjoyed over them morally superiority.
He would wear his excommunication as a badge of honor.
Archbishop Lefebvre and each SSPX bishop played that game when they were excommunicated.
They demonized Pope Saint John Paul II, as well as additional "apostate" Roman authorities, as evil men who lacked the moral authority to excommunicate "traditional" Catholics.
Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX bishops boasted they they viewed as "badges of honor" the excommunications that they had incurred in 1988 A.D.
They laughed at the excommunications in question. They laughed at "New Church, New Rome, Modernist Rome."
Today, Governor Cuomo and anti-Culture of Life liberals laugh at the notion that they are taught, governed, and sanctified by "sexual abuse" Churchmen.
Today, "traditional" Catholics laugh at the notion that they are taught, governed, and sanctified by Vatican II/Novus Ordo, supposed Church-destroying "modernists" Bergoglio, Dolan, etc.
What power does an excommunication possess among Catholics who brush aside Popes, Cardinals, and bishops?
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I question the wisdom of letting liberal progressive politicians define Catholicism , but that is a goal. Cuomo’s abortion law was a reaction to the Supreme Court, His liberal government is also unchecked by an opposing party. Cardinal Dolan could be that opposition. Yes , the Cuomo administration does contain other progressive Catholics, they will use that word. They are skilled politicians. Pope Francis has said nothing about the Cuomo Abortion Act?
Worth a read is the following, condemning "steak and eggs bishop" Dolan written by a journalist who is a practicing Catholic:
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/01/catholic_church_leaders_are_a_bunch_of_cowards.html
MT.
Take your meds. Even for you your recent post is particularly unhinged and unteathered from reality. "Right-wing" Catholics believe what the Church teaches, the left-wing does not, including PF and his looney, left-wing crew of apostates he surrounds himself with. By the way, did PF ever discipline the Vatican clerics involved in the cocaine fueled, gay sex scandal? You really owe us an answer.
MT, you and Cardinal Dolan forget the medicinal effect on the rest of the Catholics in the US that would come from a canonical penalty on Cuomo: the assurance that being a Catholic means something. That you can't just believe whatever you want and call yourself "Catholic".
By your logic, no one would ever react to anything anyone ever did.
By your logic, you are wasting your time calling out Traditional Catholics on the good Father's blog: they don't care what you think so why bother?
It is interesting to encounter "traditional Catholic", I-am-free-to-resist-Bergoglio...I-am-free-to-resist-my-New-Church-modernist-Novus-Ordo-Vatican-II-bishop's-authority," bloggers/Twitter folks who've called for Governor Cuomo's excommunication.
Said folks daily mock, bash, and trash the Vicar of Christ, and one "New Church," "Bergoglio" Cardinal and bishop after another.
Said folks have declared that they are free to resist Pope Francis', as well as our bishops in communion with His Holiness, God-given authority to teach, govern, and sanctify the Holy People of God.
Said folks have claimed the "right" to resist the Magisterium. However, said folks have insisted that Governor Cuomo must bow to the authority that God has granted unto Popes, Cardinals, and bishops.
Should he face excommunication, Governor Cuomo will play the game that "traditional" Catholics play. That is, he will laugh at the notion that our Churchmen have the authority to teach, govern, and sanctify him.
He will play the Archbishop/SSPX card. That is, he will view his excommunication as a "badge of honor."
That is the sorry state of the Church's two extreme wings.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Anonymous at January 30, 2019 at 8:53 AM...
I am not opposed to Holy Mother Church excommunicating Governor Cuomo. I will accept the Church's decision in regard to the manner in which She will deal with Governor Cuomo.
The medicinal effect of an excommunication would pertain to the small amount, speaking relatively, of Catholics who take seriously Church teaching. But then, said folks don't require such "medicine" as they obey Holy Mother Church.
As he belongs to one of the Church's two extreme wings, the left-wing, excommunication would have Z-E-R-O meaning to Governor Cuomo.
He will laugh at the notion that, at least to his way of thinking, Churchmen who have aided (supposedly) priests who've abused people sexually have the moral authority to excommunicate him.
He is akin to right-wing "traditional" Catholics who boast daily on their blogs/twitter that "Bergolgio," as well as "Bergolio Cardinals," and "Bergoglio bishops," do not possess the God-given authority to teach, govern, and sanctify "traditional" Catholics.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Anonymous at 8:53
Precisely. MT is intellectually confused, very confused. The left repudiates almost all of the Church's teachings, support abortion and gay marriage, but he is focused on the so-called "right-wing", those folks who adhere to Church teaching and worship at the EF.
It is my position, that if Cardinal Cushing had censored or excommunicated Ted Kennedy, at a time when the Church still held great influence over American Catholics, many of whom were Democrats, the Democratic Party may have not morphed into the Party of Death. I was a Democrat when I was young but what pushed me over the edge was when the late Governor Casey of Pennsylvania was NOT PERMITTED by the so-called big-tent liberal party to appear on stage at the Democratic National Convention. That's when I knew the evil crazies had taken over the Party. Governor Casey's son, now a Senator from PA, is a fake catholic who obviously cares more about getting elected than honoring his Church and his late father's memory.
I have not heard the American Medical Association, Health Care Unions, Public Service Unions arguing against Cuomo ‘ s Abortion Agenda: they all profit from it.That should give reason for the Church’s leaders to be particularly angry and vocal about this. It is unchecked, not challenged and by political standards unopposed. It also occurred to me that if Pelosi is the Queen of Sodom(San Francisco) Cuomo is the Prince of Gamorah (New York) That is our leadership.
It seems that the "Traditional" Catholics here are not calling for a medicinal approach to correcting errors, but to one that imposes pain on the person subjected to a penalty. They are hoping he suffers.
Even "good" Father McDonald wants Cuomo's "a--" excommunicated. That hardly indicates a desire for healing. Read the other comments - folks are out for blood.
I don't need someone to tell me that Johan or Isolde has been excommunicated to know what the faith teaches or to take comfort in God's presence in me and in His Church. My assurance comes from the Lord, not from some penalty foisted on a politician.
"Even good Fr. McDonald".... In a previous post I spoke of the need for righteous anger in many cases, like priests abusing minors--they need to be laicized as a punishment from the Church and civil law needs to throw their "a--'s" in jail. they need punishment. Mercy can follow in one form or another after the punishment has been inflicted or served.
Gov. Cuomo is enabling the worst kind of infanticide under the guise of women's rights. It is murder pure and simply that he is enabling and there are those quite willing to do the murders, similar to those in Nazi concentration camps who had no qualms about killing the Jews on masse.
Should any of us be angry about this. Your damn right. And if you aren't then you have no conscience.
Anonymous,
But excommunication is intended to be a medicinal approach, not a final solution.
I think the essential point you are missing is that the hierarchy has done such an abysmal job since Vatican Disaster II. The Faithful are rightfully frustrated and are crying out for shepherds to defend the Faith and lead the Faithful, which clearly, they are not. Dolan is just another timeserver who wants to be loved by his natural enemies who are evil.
MT... it's not so much that Coumo would bow, or care, that the Church excommunicated him. It's that an excommunication would mean that the Church takes Herself and Her teachings seriously. As it is, it doesn't even seem that Francis takes it seriously.
Anyway, I'm really, really, REALLY, tired of whatever this thing is that we are still calling the "true" Church. I'm thinking it was infiltrated by liars (and THE liar) a very long time ago.
Peace to you all. I think I am finally done with it.
"I think the essential point you are missing is that the hierarchy has done such an abysmal job...
It is VERY easy and VERY convenient to blame the hierarchy. Scapegoating is as old as sin. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent. It is always someone else's fault.
You are angry not because the hierarchy has not done their job, you are angry because they don't do what you want them to do.
Hey fake catholics posting here, one of your Dems is trying to introduce a bill in Virginia to allow an abortion while the baby is coming out of the birth canal:
https://hotair.com/archives/2019/01/29/virginia-democrat-introduces-bill-allow-abortion-moment-birth/
Have you no shame, have you no decency? If PF had any cojones he would condemn the modern Democratic Party like Pius XI did the Nazis, Commies, and Fascists.
Mark Thomas-
It would be unfortunate if excommunication were to have "zero" meaning to Governor Cuomo. At the end of the day, the Governor, by his actions, has chosen to separate himself from the Church. This is nothing the Church desires. Perhaps, in time, he will have a change-of-heart, repent and, even be invited to rejoin - let us hope this happens. Until then, and given what has occurred, rules must be enforced so that people have faith that the Church upholds its own teachings. The optics of excommunication are irrelevant to the issue at hand. The so-called left and right of the Church are irrelevant to the specific matter that should be addressed for the good of the Church.
"You are angry not because the hierarchy has not done their job, you are angry because they don't do what you want them to do."
We want them to do the right thing. Am I missing something that would lead one to another conclusion???
"We want them to do the right thing. Am I missing something that would lead one to another conclusion???"
And you are convinced that public excommunication is the right thing.
Many are convinced that it is not the right thing.
Good arguments can be made on both sides.
Yes, you are angry because the hierarchy will not do what you want them to do.
When a bishop of a diocese in which a person like Gov. Cuomo lives doesn't do anything but pronounce words of disappointment with little anger accompanying those words, then yes, I hope you are angry. Excommunication is one option, another is censure and another option I only read about today is a canonical trial of heresy directed at the governor.
He cares not I suspect what sanctions any bishop might place against him, but it sure would send a powerful message to faithful Catholics if a bishop did something other than wring his hands.
Angry, yes, there is a lot of anger against bishops on many different levels and this is only one. Catholics of good will should be angry if they don't do what is right.
Anonymous Kavanaugh is feeling very sensitive today likely over the legislation introduced by his Party over in Virginia authorizing the killing of babies coming out of the birth canal.
The bishops either need to use the crozier they have in their hands to protect/discipline the flock or put the crozier in the hands of someone that will, enough is enough!
Bishops unwilling/incapable of disciplining their own house is exactly why we're in this state today.
"And you are convinced that public excommunication is the right thing."
No, I am not. I'm not a canon lawyer trained to know which remedy is most appropriate. Evidently, there are other options as provided by Fr. AJM. A reasonable person would conclude, however, that some remedy needs to be applied to either realign the Governor's actions (past and anticipated) with the precepts of the Church or, formally sanction/separate the Governor so that the people of faith have faith that the precepts of the Church are upheld regardless of political ramification or, optics.
"Yes, you are angry because the hierarchy will not do what you want them to do."
Do not presume to know what I am or, am not angry about and the reason why. Awfully presumptuous. By no means am I stomping my feet and breaking my crayons because I did not get my way. Rather, I am disappointed by the weak response as, it sews the seeds of confusion among, as noted by Fr. AJM, Catholics of good will who then rightly question the compromised standard applied to a public figure vs the standard to which they live by and are held accountable to in the confessional.
As I have said, maybe we need to blame the voters (for the Cuomo debacle). He did not seize power in a coup; instead he was freely elected to the position in a reliably Democratic state. I suspect the voters knew very well his abortion position---how could they not?---and elected him anyway. An unfortunate state of affairs....
Anonymous at 5:52,
Yes, the problem is the voters, like alleged catholics, Kavanaugh and Anonymous 2, vote for these thugs.
Most excommunications are latae sententiae. Procuring an abortion incurs such a penalty. But if a woman repents and confesses her sin the excommunication, which is not reserved to the Holy See, may be lifted by the confessor subject to the approval of the local ordinary.
The canonist Ed Peters has questioned whether many latae sententiae excommunications are valid in canon law. The SSPX is a case in point. They did not believe the 1988 excommunications were valid, and if there is doubt (and there certainly is) canon law gives the benefit of the doubt to the accused.
He believes that ferendae sententiae excommunications, rare at present, should be resorted to more frequently.
John Nolan,
Ed Peters is an orthodox Catholic and an excellent canonist. He points out the regrettable "gaps" in current Canon Law to deal with truly reprehensible "Catholics" like Governor Cuomo and Nasty Pelosi who both misuse religion for political purposes. It is repulsive that they claim to be Catholic when clearly they are not. Hitler was "catholic" too for what that is worth. However, what is even more egregious is that we have bishops like that glad hander, Archbishop Dolan of New York, who sits on his hands and does nothing. He also did nothing when homosexual priests were assaulting young men's anuses. I do not know the situation in England, but I would say the Catholic Church in the US is approaching the terminal stage. My own children view it as corrupt and a total joke, notwithstanding my pleas to stay the course. I worry that they represent the majority view.
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