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Thursday, January 17, 2019

WITH ALL THE UPHEVALS, CONFUSION, SCANDALS AND MIXED MESSAGES COMING FROM THE VATICAN AND ELSEWHERE IN THE CHURCH, WHEN WILL BE THE "RIGHT TIME" FOR POPE FRANCIS TO MAKE A DECISION ON WOMEN DEACONESSES? (I KNOW, THAT'S REDUNDANT!)

The permanent deacon Greg Kendra has a good article on the committee formed by Pope Francis to assist him on the right time to make a decision on deaconesses.

The good deacon feels left out of the committee as no permanent deacons or even transitional ones were included in the discussions.

Will Pope Francis open the door to deaconesses? The world would love His Holiness for it:


The other day, I posted on the symposium on women deacons that was just held at Fordham University — and this morning, Rita Ferrone adds more details, with a pastoral perspective:  Sr. Donna Ciangio injected a contemporary pastoral ministry component and some lively urgency into the proceedings by describing and quoting the thoughts of lay people in her parish and participants in a pilot study group she conducted on the subject of women deacons. In her parish, for example,… Read more


25 comments:

TJM said...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, finishing the job Vatican Disaster II started: emptying the pews of paying "Customers."

Anonymous said...

No, you don't mean "redundant" which means "characterized by similarity or repetition."

You mean "oxymoronic," meaning "a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”

Sheesh...

rcg said...

At least he has something important to think about.

John Nolan said...

Anonymous, wrong again. 'Women deaconesses' is not oxymoronic, it is tautological.

Sheesh ...

Dan said...

It's sexist to call them a "deaconess!"

John Nolan said...

Fr AJM

You need to distinguish between a deaconess and a woman deacon. The CofE had the former before it had the latter. Also the commission under Abp Ladaria is simply looking at whether the early Church had women deacons, and, if so, what was their role. Ladaria has made it clear that they will not be advising the Pope.

Of course, women religious can have titles without ordination (abbess, prioress, canoness). If PF were serious about giving more roles to lay women, he could simply amend Ministeria Quaedam and formally admit women to the lay ministries of lector and acolyte. One advantage of his Argentine upbringing is that he doesn't kowtow to European and North American notions of 'women's rights'.

Anonymous said...

No, I think it is an oxymoron. "a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction." In Fr. McDonald's text "women" and "deaconesses" are the apparently contradictory terms.

A tautology would be "the saying of the same thing twice in different words, generally considered to be a fault of style." Are "women" and "deaconesses" the same thing? No, there are plenty of women who are not deaconesses, so "women" and "deaconesses" are not the same thing. A tautology would be, "They arrived one after another in succession," since "one after another" and "in succession" are the same thing.

Nice try, but no ceegar.

TJM said...

John Nolan,

So PF suffers from “toxic masculinity.” I am good with that!

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Am I missing something here? Using women as a modifier for deaconesses is redundant because all deaconesses are women, no? Certainly though not all women are deaconesses. The victory is mine!

Anonymous said...

"Using women as a modifier for deaconesses is redundant because all deaconesses are women, no?"

Yes, which is precisely why using "women" to modify "deaconesses" is unnecessary and, in your usage, oxymoronic. And no, it doesn't "beg the question, "Why Not?"

"Women deaconesses" makes as much sense a "Jewish synagogue," "a hot water heater," or a "male Catholic priest."

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

FrMJK, up to your old tactics I see. I am the one that questioned the redundancy of women and deaconesses since all deaconesses are women. Similarly one would not use male deacon as all deacons are male. And yes you are right to point out that it is redundant to use Jewish Synagogue, Hot water heater and male priest, no matter what denomination to include paganism. only women can be priestesses, there are no male priestesses. There are no female priests in the Anglican Communion they are women priestesses.

An oxymoron is like Jesuit Liturgist---there are no Jesuits that are liturgists it is beyond their pay scale.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

And there I go again in the Anglican Communion their priestesses are female so no need of the modifier women priestesses. I make myself laugh!

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

And by the way it would be redundant to say male god because the word god or God is masculine just as one would not need to say female goddess, there are,though, no male goddesses as that would be an oxymoron.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

You could say female or male deity though and that would not be redundant or an oxymoron as both exist.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

deity is gender neutral.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

In other words, the victory is mine, although that to my be redundant.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

too and may, oh silly me or is it I?

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

But now that I think about it, wouldn't Messianic Jews call their synagogues Christian Synagogues.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Or is that an oxymoron?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, FMJK, WILL have the last word on this as on all topics, and he is ALWAYS right, no matter the subject or the truth...just so you understand.
Sheesh!
I am using “Anonymous” for my response because he is a vindictive sort of person who will indulge this propensity non-stop here. And, he is a priest in my Diocese (-:

John Nolan said...

I suggest that if 'Anonymous' thinks that 'woman' and 'deaconess' ( or 'woman' and 'authoress', or many other like examples) constitute a contradiction in terms as opposed to a tautology I would drop the following into his shell-like ear:

Don't pontificate on matters concerning which you are profoundly ignorant. In your case this includes English grammar and usage, history and liturgy. You are becoming increasingly tiresome, although your pathetic attempts to have the last word have a certain comedic quality.



Anonymous said...

Messianic Jews are just fraudulent. The movement was begun to make it "easy" for Jews to become Christians since they did not have to say they "converted" to Christianity but were still "Jews."

Fr MJK is not always right - most of the time, to be sure, but not always.

He has acknowledged his mistakes and, I suspect, will continue to do so when, in the future, he errs.

TJM said...

I am pleased that Father McDonald has finally outed Kavanaugh. His snark comments have a certain scent - you know who is posting even though he claims to be "Anonymous."

John Nolan said...

Example of oxymoron (Tennyson):

'His honour rooted in dishonour stood,
And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true.'

John Nolan said...

Another example (Shakespeare):

'Beautiful tyrant! fiend angelical!
Dove-feathered raven! wolvish ravening lamb!
Despisèd substance of divinest show!
Just opposite to what thou justly seemeth,
A damnèd saint, an honourable villain!

(Romeo and Juliet, Act III Scene 2)

By the way, deity can be masculine, feminine or neuter in English but is feminine in Latin, French and German (deitas, déité, Gottheit).