Saturday, May 23, 2015

ARCHBISHOP MARTIN: CHURCH NEEDS REALITY CHECK? DIDN'T POOR, MALIGNED POPE BENEDICT TRY TO DO THIS?

In the last 50 years and beginning with the redefinition of the Liturgy which became banal with its loss of reverence or what some would say irreverence, loss of piety and loss of wonder and awe in the majesty of God, that what happened in Ireland was bound to happen.

Would a liturgy that had maintained the spiritual, devotional, piety and reverence of the Latin Liturgy with only minor adaptations been able to sustain the Irish in the secularism that had fed their religious decline coupled with scandal in the Church both pre- and post-Vatican II that might have been abated by authentic Faith and piety?

It is a wake-up call for not just Ireland but for the Magisterium from the Holy Father to the college of bishops and the priests and deacons that support them. It is a wake up call for the laity.

A new and improved Church as a result of Vatican II did not, has not and will not come about. True and time tested is what is needed. Restoration as Pope Benedict envisioned it is the way.  

Archbishop Martin: Church needs reality check

Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin has called for the Church to take a reality check after the gay marriage vote.

Archbishop Martin declared the groundswell of support for same-sex couples was a social revolution that did not happen in the last day.

“It’s a social revolution that’s been going on – perhaps in the Church people have not been as clear in understanding what that involved,” he said.

“It’s clear that if the referendum is an affirmation of the views of young people the Church has a huge task in front of it.”

In the weeks running up to polling day, a series of Catholic bishops issued open letters to congregations outlining their concerns about gay marriage and why the Church would not support the reform.

The Primate of All Ireland, Archbishop of Armagh Eamon Martin, said the hierarchy may even reconsider its position on whether priests would continue to solemnise the civil aspect of a marriage if the vote was passed.

But Archbishop Diarmuid Martin called on Church leaders to take a look at itself and how it interacts with young people and their views.

“I think really the Church needs to do a reality check,” he told RTE.

“I appreciate how gay and lesbian men and women feel on this day. That they feel this is something that is enriching the way they live. I think it is a social revolution.”

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said the Church needs to look at all areas it is involved in, from the things it is doing well in to areas where it has drifted away from young people.

The senior cleric said that there have discussions at the highest level in the church on where the contact was between the Church in Ireland and young people.

“We have to stop and have a reality check, not move into denial of the realities. We won’t begin again with a sense of renewal with a sense of denial,” he said.

“I ask myself, most of these young people who voted yes are products of our Catholic school system for 12 years. I’m saying there’s a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church.”

56 comments:

Paul said...

Perhaps "the luck of the Irish" just ran out.

Do the stewards of the Church really know what they're up against?

Perhaps a checklist could be passed out and filled by parishioners:

Do you support so-called gay marriage?

Do you believe that abortion is an intrinsic evil in all circumstances?

etc...

Maybe the results would wake up a local priest.

Do the Priests know their audience? Perhaps there many (a majority?) people smiling, singing, saying, kneeling, hearing and bowing all while not accepting and believing what the Church is conveying. The people then plan for their next ministry and walk among us and our children. Maybe have donuts and coffee. Getting for Religious ed.

jolly jansenist said...

Did the Archbishop just say something?

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Apart from the liturgy and its poor celebrations, lack of inspiring awe and wonder and a deep sense of sin and the need for humility, there are no words coming from the good Archbishop about the loss of a soul be it of the nation or individuals.

There is no lamenting the damnation that Catholics are participating in by rejecting God as God is not as they would like God to be, made in the image of their sinful inclinations and beliefs.

I'm not sure how to deal with this. In Macon we had a school teacher dismissed for entering into as same sex "marital" union. The Catholics who rose up against the Church because of his firing astounded me and the Catholics on the facebook page put up for his support shocked me more.

Catholicism has become a comfort religion for consumers. There isn't the same level of commitment to the Church that there once was.

Paul said...

Even Jesus was angered.

Reveal to them The Truth. The sheep may be angered, some may even stray but, perhaps, already strayed sheep may hear that Truth and return.

According to polls, 11% of Catholics attend Holy Mass. What percentage of those attending Mass accept and try to live all what Christ's Church is teaching? A similar percentage? If so, that means about 1 out of 100 Catholics attend and believe what has been revealed to them.

Anonymous 2 said...

Unless and until the Church actually goes to the place where gay people and the young people who support same sex marriage actually are and talks with them, listens to them, and truly hears what they have to say (and I don’t just mean priests in the confessional), so that the Holy Spirit can work in the encounter, the Church will get nowhere with them or with this issue. Just pontificating or repeating the same worn out formulas (worn out to the intended audience, that is) will get nowhere; indeed, it is likely counterproductive because it reinforces the perception of a Church that is “out of touch.” Pope Francis understands this as it appears does Archbishop Diarmuid Martin. (Are all the Archbishops in Ireland called Martin, by the way?).

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...


There are hundreds of reasons why people remain in their sin. We can listen all we want until the cows come home but if those telling us why sin is good for them and we listen what do we offer? Just another listening session and about what?

If(apart from the homosexual part of it) people don't believe in sin and think that their sin is good how much listening can we do if the bottom line is that Christ came to save us from sin and thus from hell.

How can living in sin be discussed as a good thing? If it is good, then hell is good. If hell is good then many are being condemned to an eternity there because they love their sin more than God.

Anonymous said...

On a more specific note with respect to marriage, while the Church has done a poor job of teaching the faith with regards to the sacrament of Holy Matrimony, marriage has been in decline in the West for 50+ years, both in terms of attitude and practice. The secular tide diminishing the honor and traditional practice of marriage has been overwhelming.

Most Catholics, especially young people, have a poorly developed sense of sacramental marriage. In addition, a recent Pew study of Americans found that 44% of young people 18-29, and 41% of 30-49 year olds, believe that marriage is becoming "obsolete." In 1950, or 1960 for that matter, how many would have said that marriage is becoming obsolete? 5%? Less?

The acceptance of same-sex marriage is a reflection of the decline in marriage, a continuation of the decline in attitudes and practices regarding marriage, which began 50+ years ago. Even for many Catholics, especially young people, a secular, worldly perspective of marriage and family has replaced the sacramental sense of Holy Matrimony and the family.

Anonymous 2 said...

Well, whatever we are doing right now does not appear to be working very well.

I know I am on shaky ground when I quote the Bible to a priest, especially to my own priest, but here goes anyway (Matthew 10):

“9. As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the customs post. He said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him.

10 While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat with Jesus and his disciples.

11 The Pharisees saw this and said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 He heard this and said, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do.

13 Go and learn the meaning of the words, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

Now what can we imagine Jesus talked about with all these sinners? And_how_did He speak with them? Weren’t these personal encounters, as were so many others that He had? I am hoping Pope Francis will provide a further lead on this. Perhaps some strategies will emerge from the Synod on the Family. But doesn’t the above passage suggest that the Church needs to “call sinners” by sitting down at table together with them? And isn’t the really interesting question perhaps why the publicans and sinners came to sit with Jesus in the first place? One assumes that something clearly attracted them to Him. The Pharisees hated all of it of course, which is presumably why He could not just sit down at table with them (as a general matter) but had to become really aggressive when attempting to get their attention.

Now tell me what I am missing. =)

Anonymous 2 said...

P.S. Sorry, Matthew 9 – told you I was on shaky ground, especially anything to do with numbers. =)

rcg said...

Anon 5:32 is spot on that this is the natural result of the death of marriage. Marriage is alive as a sacrament for those who believe and understand it. But is dead, and has been for quite a while, in society.

I don't quite know what Anon2 means about going to the youth and listening to them. I think the Church has done that too well and most of the rank and file, as well as clergy and religious, believe homosexual marriage should be allowed.

Paul said...

Anon 2,

What else can Christ's Church say but The Truth?

Many kids who go to parish schools ignore it. Many adults who attend mass ignore it.

What can the LGBTQ-indoctrinated young and practitioners say but Lies? To them it is a puzzling contradiction that Christ's Church formed out of Love doesn't "love" -- to them, "your God" and "your Jesus" are a bunch of "haters".

The problem, like many sins, is that many people don't correspondingly drop dead (bodily) immediately upon sinning. Goes back to the earlier discussion whether or not Mercy enables sin.

We go on faith that sin is evil and the ongoing negative effects of sin can take a long time. The attention span of people due to the internet and mobile communications (tech) is dwindling rapidly. If it (whatever "it" is) doesn't happen really fast, it isn't happening.

Lust and Envy happen pretty fast. Is it no wonder that the attention-challenged latch on to those so quickly?

Pray for God's help.

The cesspool is wide, deep and thick.

Anonymous 2 said...

Here is another problem involved in addressing the issue:

Generally speaking people can easily understand why the Church might oppose certain “sexual” behavior that clearly harms other people. Adultery is the prime example. Abortion is a close second, although the main problem there is persuading pro-choice people that another “person” is being harmed. But other “sexual” behavior does not clearly present itself in that way, as harming others – pre-marital sexual relations, same sex marriage, self-gratification, artificial contraception (to the extent it is not abortifacient). We Catholics may understand the natural law arguments (although many of us do not) and may even be able to articulate some more speculative “harm to others” arguments but even then such arguments seem very academic and out of touch to many. So, how can the Church deal with this and communicate effectively and persuasively about it?


Anonymous said...

" Just pontificating or repeating the same worn out formulas (worn out to the intended audience, that is) will get nowhere"

Really? It seemed to work pretty well up until 1962. The Truth, which is Chriat by the way, is never out of touch.

Anonymous 2 said...

Well, Anonymous, 1962 was more than 50 years ago and it isn’t working now. No-one is suggesting that the Truth is out of touch. But how it is communicated may be.

jolly jansenist said...

Anon 2, I think your post at 6:06 is spot on…but, I think we are at an impasse with the secularists and we are like two groups of porcupines, each trying to convince the other to file down their quills. We are not Jesus and, even though the Church represents Christ on earth, it is imperfect and has become compromised greatly by secular humanism. I honestly don't know how we would communicate with homosexuals and gay activists in such a way as to reconcile them to the Church without sacrificing fundamental doctrines and practices of there Church. I do not hold out much hope for meaningful dialogue…do you…really?

Anonymous said...

"Well, Anonymous, 1962 was more than 50 years ago and it isn’t working now. No-one is suggesting that the Truth is out of touch. But how it is communicated may be."

Well, the Truth has not been taught for 50 years, that's the problem. Maybe you are referring to that Church that Pope Francis is always talking about. You know the one that is entrenched in doctrine and dogma. Where is that Church? It certainly isn't the Catholic Church in America. I have been going to Mass my entire life and I can count on one hand the time I have heard the teachings of the Church mentioned. I have never heard a mean sermon condemning homosexuals or divorced people......NEVER have I heard that. I also haven't heard a sermon mention the evils of abortion, contraception, pre marital sex. So maybe not talking about sin at all is the problem. Maybe if we had a clergy that is actually holy and really believes the Faith they would impart that to the people. But the truth is we have a Church clergy and laity that doesn't have a relationship with the person of Jesus Christ and they don't really believe what the Church teaches.

Flavius Hesychius said...

Jansenist,

It would seem one of the problems is that the goalposts are being moved the moment someone points out the logical inconsistency or logical extremes.

In fact, there's a conundrum that exists due to this 'absolutist moral relativism':

If homosexuality were proved genetic, would it then be acceptable to abort the child?

Flavius Hesychius said...

(To clarify)

By 'absolutist moral relativism', I really mean that the West is no longer 'relativistic' regarding morality; rather, it has become extremely moralistic insofar as one must now accept 21st century morals as the only acceptable ones, or face social exclusion.

We haven't yet gotten to institutionalised ostracism, but given time I suspect the West will look like a leftist version of puritan New England.

rcg said...

We are competimg with the golden calf and nowadays it mnot only gives wealth it gives absolution. The State can give everything promised by the real God as long as you deny the existence of your own immortal soul and life after death. A while back this blog had a thread where even the faithful who frequent this ether had trouble acknowledging that God would doom us to eternal Hell. I like the classical use of doom rather than damnation. God dooms us to eternal life. We start it apart from Him and may choose to live forever apart from Him. It becomes damnation when we realize that.
Cynically, I again point out that what we are seeing is historical, not new except in our eyes and in our countries. That is the heart break at the death of illusion that we could avoid our doom.

Mark said...

Dear Father, in light of your comments in regard to the state of Catholicism, I offer the following:

Cardinal Tagle: Church should not look to 'idealized past' with nostalgia

Washington. Philippines Cardinal Luis Tagle -- often cited as a possible successor to Pope Francis -- has called on Catholics to avoid looking to the pre-Second Vatican Council Church with a sense of nostalgia, but to embrace and live out the Council's sense of openness to the modern world.

Speaking at a landmark theological conference focused on carrying the vision of the Council forward, Tagle said Vatican II rediscovered the Church's understanding of mystery, mission and communion -- and that, from there, "the understanding of Church changed radically."

One of the key changes of the Council, he said, was the move from a Church that focused on itself to one that focused on the needs of humanity.

"Many people want to witness to Christ in some idealized past that they long for with nostalgia," said Tagle, who spoke Friday morning at Georgetown University. "No, we witness to Christ now, here, where we are in our world."

"The Church is being asked to retrieve its deepest identity as a communion, but a communion that is not focused on itself," he continued. "Not self-focused, not self-referential."

---------------------------------


How can the Church pull Herself from Her state of collapse when one Cardinal and bishop after another is in utter denial as to the supposed wonderful "revival" that we've witnessed supposedly in the "post-Vatican II" Church.

Why would the Cardinal invoke the tired, old, "pre-Vatican II Church" vs. "post-Vatican II" Church" false divide?

Mark Thomas

Anonymous 2 said...

JJ:

Thank you for your post. Yes, I do have hope because the alternative is despair and that is not an option. And more is at stake than the immediate issue of same sex marriages. The future membership of the Church is also at stake. Here is the problem as I see it in that regard: The Church cannot compromise its teaching of what it considers to be Truth. But the Church also should not alienate people unnecessarily. Do we really want to drive away many younger Catholics or deter others from even considering joining the Church if that can be avoided without compromising Church teaching?

So, the question is: Are there ways the Church can seek to persuade people to what the Church considers to be Truth and at the same time avoid alienating vast numbers of people, Catholic and non-Catholic? I do have hope about this. Yes, I agree, we are not Jesus but we have been given the Holy Spirit. And if the Holy Spirit is there to inspire us what to say when suffering persecution, surely the Holy Spirit can be counted on to inspire us what to say when we are engaged in the kind of conversations I am envisaging.

So even though we may not know in advance how such conversations might go and even though we may end up not persuading anyone to the Church’s point of view, my response is still to trust the working of the Holy Spirit. There may be several benefits even if no-one is persuaded: (1) We will we get to know one another and understand one another better; (2) The Holy Spirit can work upon the hearts and minds of those with whom we converse so that they become more favorably disposed towards the Church even while disagreeing with Church teachings; (3) Who knows what other surprises the Holy Spirit may have in store for us? One thing is for sure, we won’t know until we try.

Anonymous 2 said...

Anon:

Although we will never know for sure, I seriously doubt that the Church could have stopped the massive societal and attitudinal changes, whatever it did. I moved to the United States shortly after becoming Catholic and have lived here for over 35 years now. During the first 25 years or so I also heard very few condemnations relating to these matters but I have heard many in the last decade. However, the relevant audience is not just those Catholics in the pews. It is also those Catholics who have drifted from the Church as well as non-Catholics who do not accept the Church’s moral authority over them in the first place. How should we speak to them?

Mark said...

His Holiness Pope Francis has time and again promoted the Church's teachings on human sexuality and marriage.

Time and again Pope Francis has emphasized that the only true marriage is that between a man and woman.

During a Wednesday General Audience, Pope Francis called attention to a group of pilgrims who worked to pass laws that would ban homosexual "marriage" and the adoption of children by homosexual "couples".

Pope Francis praised the group in question.

Nevertheless, the majority of Catholics in Ireland who voted rejected Pope Francis' constant appeal to Catholics to embrace and uphold the Church's unchangeable teachings in regard to human sexuality and marriage.

My point is that despite Pope Francis' upholding of Church teachings, the rot within and collapse of the Church is so profound that not even the popularity of a Pope is sufficient to reverse the breakdown of Faith and morality among a great many Catholics.

There simply isn't any Pope "Francis Effect".

That is, we are beyond the sheer personality of a particular Pope to reverse the collapse of the Catholic Church.

Only a miracle can reverse the crisis of Faith that, during the past 50 or so years, has engulfed the Church.

As Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged, in vast areas of the world, the Faith is in danger of virtual extinction.

That is being pessimistic. That is simply being realistic.

May God grant the necessity miracle that we require so desperately to stabilize the Faith throughout the world.

Perhaps said miracle involves the restoration of sound liturgy, particularly throughout the Latin Church.

Mark Thomas

John Nolan said...

Quite apart from the result of the Irish referendum, the Irish hierarchy over the past 15 years has been worse than useless. Benedict XVI should have removed the lot of them on the spot.

The LGBT agenda is pushed vigorously by all political parties in Ireland, including Sinn Fein, that most reactionary of all republican parties (the political wing of the IRA). With one exception - the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) which in Northern Ireland shares power with Sinn Fein and espouses a fundamentalist Protestantism.

David Cameron (even before the General Election which gave the Tories an overall majority in the UK) said his main issue with the DUP was their opposition to LGBT 'rights'. His new Equalities Minister (Caroline Dinenage) is a Catholic who voted against 'gay marriage' but has now done a complete 'volte-face' and tweeted enthusiastically about the result of the Irish referendum.

Still, there are many Conservatives who do not sign up to the agenda and are not afraid to speak out. If the issue is put to the voting public as one of fairness and equality then they are automatically disposed to favour it. Moral arguments count for little.

The LGBT lobby has been astoundingly successful. Homosexual behaviour was only decriminalized in Southern Ireland in 1992. They have won over most Christian denominations. Despite her unambiguous doctrine on the matter the Catholic Church can only come up with fuzzy platitudes about 'tolerance' and 'listening'.

Fuzzy liturgy, fuzzy teaching (especially in Catholic schools), fuzzy utterances from Catholic bishops especially when interviewed on national media.

In short, a fuzzing disgrace.

Mark said...

I have a correction please.

I had written the following: "As Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged, in vast areas of the world, the Faith is in danger of virtual extinction.

"That is being pessimistic. That is simply being realistic."

I had meant to write the following: "That is not being pessimistic".

My point is that Pope Benedict XVI statement, that the Catholic Church faces virtual death in vast areas of the world is not a pessimistic statement.

Said statement is simple reality.

As is the case in Ireland, with Catholics having voted to legitimize homosexual "marriages", a great many Catholics throughout the world support the Culture of Death.

Said Catholics favor artificial birth control, abortion, pre-marital sex...and, of course, homosexual "marriage".

His Holiness Pope Francis has denounced time and again the Culture of Death.

The majority of Catholics have ignored Pope Francis' defense and promotion of the Culture of Life.

Instead, the majority of Catholics, who claim to love and follow Pope Francis...the "Francis Effect"...have made it clear via their actions that they favor the Culture of Death.

I am not being Mister Doom and Gloom.

Is there anybody who is unaware as to the extent that the Faith has collapsed throughout much of the world?

To return to the news from Ireland...the majority of Catholics have thrown in with the Culture of Death.

Therefore, the Church in Ireland (and in vast areas of the world) is on the way to virtual extinction.

May God grant to Catholics in Ireland the miracle that they require desperately to overcome their crisis of faith.

Mark Thomas

Mark said...

If I may post an additional comment...

Waves of Moslems pour daily into Europe. In various parts of the world, many (not all) Moslems persecute Catholics and have our brothers and sisters in the Faith on the run.

There are Islamic "no-go zones" in various European cities that Catholics dare not enter.

If many Moslems despise Catholics now and consider Catholics as "infidels", just consider how said Moslems have reacted to the majority of Catholics in Ireland who have voted "yes" to homosexual "marriage".

Islam despises homosexuality.

Imagine as to the amount of Moslems, particularly in Europe, who are more convinced today than ever that they must rid Europe (and the world) of Catholics...of "infidels".

Do the Catholics in Ireland realize what they have invited...what they have done to themselves?

Catholics in Ireland are not only destroying the Faith via their actions.

Their "yes" vote for homosexual "marriage" will have reinforced among many Moslems the belief that Islam must rid Europe (and the world) of "infidel" Catholics.

Good job, Catholics in Ireland. One way or the other, you have just ensured your destruction.

Oh...and in absence a miracle from God, when Islam gains control of Europe, you can rest assured that homosexual "marriage", advanced by Catholics, will be outlawed.

Note to Catholics in Ireland: As you destroy yourselves, you may wish to purchase prayer rugs for your children and grandchildren.

Mark Thomas

Mike Horgan said...

As an Irishman I am greatly saddened by the decision and direction chosen by the Irish people. Ireland began to embrace Satan and all his works and all his empty promises several decades ago. But we are a people of hope and should take solace from the words of scripture which are as true today as 2000 years ago:

John Chapter 6:
Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?
62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.
65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.
66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

If they would not believe Jesus how much less will they listen today?

Matthew 10 is also instructive:

14 And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor′rah than for that town.

However, this does not release us from the need to continue to preach the gospel of Jesus with all its inherent challenges.

George said...

Anonymous 2
I appreciate your approach and there is probably some benefit to it, but I have yet to read or hear of anything meaningful coming out of it. Are there good results you are aware of ? Are there any that you personally know about? I'm not against it at all but as Catholics we must engage in more prayer, sacrifice and fasting in addition to any "outreach". We are entering a dark period especially with many of our young people embracing the values of a modern culture, the embracing of such values which cannot do anything but lead to spiritual death. It is really such a strange world today where those who want to see God's laws obeyed(even those who do so charitably) are attacked not only by the media but even by some inside the Church,all the while as the culture moves farther and farther away from God's teachings.

Paul said...

Not one peep about this in Mass. No prayers offered up for the country of Ireland. However, there was a prayer offered for cooperation amongst nations. Be careful what one prays for.

I wonder how many in the USA pews today, on Pentecost, are "proud" of Ireland's "evolution".

George said...

Anonymous 2:

I appreciate your approach and there is probably some benefit to it, but I have yet to read or hear of anything meaningful coming out of it. Are there good results you are aware of ? Are there any that you personally know about? There is always hope. I'm not against your approach at all but as Catholics we must engage in more prayer, sacrifice and fasting, in addition to any "outreach". We are entering a dark period especially with many of our young people embracing the values of a modern culture, the embracing of such values which cannot do anything but lead to spiritual death. It is really such a strange world today where those who want to see God's laws obeyed(even those who do so charitably) are attacked not only by the media but even by some inside the Church,all the while as the culture moves farther and farther away from God's teachings.

Anonymous said...

Mark, No Francis effect?

Well, considering just days before the Irish referendum Pope Francis appointed Fr Radcliffe who has spoken out against the Church's teachings on homesexuality and is pro gay marriage, I think there is most certainly a Francis effect. Very early in his pontificate he appointed a known homosexual priest to the Vatican Bank and appointed liberal bishops in particular to the Synod on the family which resulted in the notorious mid-week report.

Any attempt by Pope Francis to clarify some of his statements - "who am I to judge?" in particular - is a bit late because the horse has well and truly bolted.

The only thing perhaps through his pontificate liberalism is well and truly bubbling to the surface, and I would be very surprised to see the next Synod on the Family upholding Church teaching on marriage - especially now that Cardinal Burke has been demoted and therefore not able to attend the Synod on the Family. What happens rests a lot on the shoulders of Cardinal Pell and the African bishops.

Jan

George said...

As I posted on another thread I appreciate your approach and there is probably some benefit to it, but I would say it should primarily used in regards to those OUTSIDE the Church. St Paul, in his letters, had some strong and harsh words on this subject and these were addressed to those INSIDE the Church of his time in those areas he preached in. He admonished and warned that those who were attending Christian services, but who at the same time were continuing to participate in their previous lifestyle of engaging in practices which were not compatible with the Faith, including attending and participating in rituals and services at the pagan temples, would not inherit the Kingdom of God . Today we increasingly see Catholics (as in Ireland) supporting things which are not compatible with the Catholic faith. One wonders how much good St Paul's approach would have achieved in modern day Ireland. We'll never know. We have to recognize and acknowledge though, as we see evidenced across the Atlantic, that we have a big
problem inside the Church itself.

This reminds me of a quote from GK Chesterton which could certainly be applied to our own times(and yes, there is more than one way to read it):

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has (too often) been found difficult and left untried.”

Anonymous 2 said...

Mark:

Your comment at 11:18 a.m. about Muslims and the Irish referendum almost made me choke on my porridge. I would be interested in your reaction to the following article in The Atlantic earlier this year about fear-mongering over alleged Muslim no-go areas in Europe:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/paris-mayor-to-sue-fox-over-no-go-zone-comments/384656/

Mark said...

Jan, I agree that the "Who am I to judge" horse bolted long ago.

I believe, however, in fairness to Pope Francis, that one news media outlet after another misrepresented his remark in question.

I realize that His Holiness Pope Francis has a history of issuing remarks that he or Father Lombardi are forced to walk back or "clarify".

That is the case with the Pope's "rabbit" remark.

I heard a woman recently state that Pope Francis doesn't necessarily favor large families.

Pope Francis attempted to walk back his "rabbit" controversy...but it was too late.

Finally, I have to disagree with you in regard with the upcoming Synod on the Family.

Pope Francis has time and again upheld the Church's teachings on marriage and family.

Therefore, I cannot imagine that Pope Francis would permit the Synod to teach contrary to the Church in regard to marriage.

Mark Thomas

Mark said...

Anonymous 2 said..."Mark: Your comment at 11:18 a.m. about Muslims and the Irish referendum almost made me choke on my porridge. I would be interested in your reaction to the following article in The Atlantic earlier this year about fear-mongering over alleged Muslim no-go areas in Europe:"

Here is my reply, which should Father permit, must be posted in two parts. Thank you.

Part 1.

September 2014, A French Islam Scholar Said, “You Have Territories In France Such As Roubaix, Such As Northern Marseille, Where Police Will Not Step Foot.”

“Fabrice Balanche, a well-known French Islam scholar who teaches at the University of Lyon, recently told Radio Télévision Suisse: ‘You have territories in France such as Roubaix, such as northern Marseille, where police will not step foot, where the authority of state is completely absent, where mini Islamic states have been formed.’”

October 2014, A French Journalist Said, “There Are Places In France Today, Especially In The Suburbs, Where It Is Not Really In France.” “French writer and political journalist Éric Zemmour recently told BFM TV: ‘There are places in France today, especially in the suburbs, where it is not really in France. Salafi Islamists are Islamizing some neighborhoods and some suburbs. In these neighborhoods, it's not France, it's an Islamic republic.’”

“The Socialist Mayor Of Amiens, Gilles Demailly, Has Referred To The Fafet-Brossolette District Of The City As A ‘No-Go Zone’ Where ‘You Can No Longer Order A Pizza Or Get A Doctor To Come To The House.’”

“Europe 1, One Of The Leading Broadcasters In France, Has Referred To Marseille As A ‘No-Go Zone’ after the government was forced to deploy riot police, known as CRS, to confront warring Muslim gangs in the city. The French Interior Ministry said it was trying to ‘reconquer’ 184 square kilometers (71 square miles) of Marseille that have come under the control of Muslim gangs.”

“The French Newspaper Le Figaro Has Referred To Downtown Perpignan As A ‘Veritable No-Go Zone’ where ‘aggression, antisocial behavior, drug trafficking, Muslim communalism, racial tensions and tribal violence’ are forcing non-Muslims to move out.”

Mark Thomas

Mark said...

Muslim no-go areas in Europe...reply Part 2:

“The French Newspaper Le Figaro Has Referred To Downtown Perpignan As A ‘Veritable No-Go Zone’ where ‘aggression, antisocial behavior, drug trafficking, Muslim communalism, racial tensions and tribal violence’ are forcing non-Muslims to move out.”

“Le Figaro Also Reported That The Les Izards District Of Toulouse Was A No-Go Zone, Where Arab Drug Trafficking Gangs Rule The Streets In A Climate Of Fear.”

“The Newspaper Le Parisien Has Called Parts Of Grigny, A Township In The Southern Suburbs Of Paris, A ‘Lawless Zone’ Plagued By Well-Organized Muslim Gangs, Whose Members Believe They Are ‘Masters Of The World.’”

“The Weekly Newsmagazine Le Point Reported On The Spiraling Muslim Lawlessness In The French City Of Grenoble.”

French Magazine L’Obs Reports That In The French City Of Roubaix Citizens Want To Create Their Own Militia To Confront Radical Muslim Gangs. “The French magazine L'Obs has reported on the deteriorating security situation in Roubaix, a city in northern France that is located close to the Belgian border. The magazine reported that local citizens are ‘exiled within their own country’ and want to create their own militia to restore order because police are afraid to confront Muslim gangs.”

Mark Thomas

Mark said...

I am sorry, I will require additional posts to document my claim in regard to Islamic no-go zones in Europe.

If Father is willing, here are additional citations:

“In August 2014, The French Magazine Valeurs Actuelles Reported That ‘France Has More Than 750 Areas Of Lawlessness’ where the law of the French Republic no longer applies. Under the headline ‘Hell in France,’ the magazine said that many parts of France are experiencing a ‘dictatorship of riffraff’ where police are ‘greeted by mortar fire’ and are ‘forced to retreat by projectiles.’”

“Valeurs Actuelles Has Also Reported On No-Go Zones In Nantes, Tours And Orléans, Which Have Turned Into ‘Battlefields’ Where The Few Remaining Native French Holdouts Are Confronted With ‘Muslim Communalism, The Disappearance Of Their Cultural References And Rampant Crime.’”

“A Graphic 20-Minute Documentary About The No-Go Zone In Clichy Montfermeil, A Suburb Of Paris, Can Be Viewed Here. At around the 3-minute mark, the video shows what happens when French police enter the area.”

“A 1.5 hour documentary produced by France's TF1 about Muslim gangs in Parisian no-go zones can be viewed here. A 50-minute documentary produced by France's TV3 about the no-go zones of Clos Saint-Lazare in northern Paris can be viewed here. A 45-minute documentary about the no-go zones of Marseilles can be viewed here.”

“A 120-Page Research Paper Entitled ‘No-Go Zones In The French Republic: Myth Or Reality?’ Documented Dozens Of French Neighborhoods ‘Where Police And Gendarmerie Cannot Enforce The Republican Order Or Even Enter Without Risking Confrontation, Projectiles, Or Even Fatal Shootings.’”


“In October 2011, A Landmark 2,200-Page Report, ‘Banlieue De La République’ Found That Seine-Saint-Denis And Other Parisian Suburbs Are Becoming ‘Separate Islamic Societies’ Cut Off From The French State, And Where Islamic Sharia Law Is Rapidly Displacing French Civil Law. The report said that Muslim immigrants are increasingly rejecting French values and instead are immersing themselves in radical Islam.”

The Daily Mail Reported In 2014 On The Existence Of “No-Go” Zones In The United Kingdom:

The Daily Mail Reported: “Murders And Rapes Going Unreported In No-Go Zones For Police As Minority Communities Launch Own Justice Systems.”

The Chief Inspector Of Constabulary In The United Kingdom Said Serious Crimes Are Going Unreported In The United Kingdom In Minority Communities. “Parts of the UK are becoming no-go areas for police because minority communities are operating their own justice systems, according to the Chief Inspector of Constabulary. The rise in ‘community justice’ means crimes as serious as murder and sexual abuse are going unreported – a situation reminiscent of Belfast in the height of the Troubles. Tom Winsor said police officers were simply never called to some neighbourhoods, where law-abiding people rather than criminals administer their own form of justice.” Daily Mail, 1/17/14)

Mark Thomas

Mark said...

Muslim no-go areas in Europe...reply Part 2:

“The French Newspaper Le Figaro Has Referred To Downtown Perpignan As A ‘Veritable No-Go Zone’ where ‘aggression, antisocial behavior, drug trafficking, Muslim communalism, racial tensions and tribal violence’ are forcing non-Muslims to move out.”

“Le Figaro Also Reported That The Les Izards District Of Toulouse Was A No-Go Zone, Where Arab Drug Trafficking Gangs Rule The Streets In A Climate Of Fear.”

“The Newspaper Le Parisien Has Called Parts Of Grigny, A Township In The Southern Suburbs Of Paris, A ‘Lawless Zone’ Plagued By Well-Organized Muslim Gangs, Whose Members Believe They Are ‘Masters Of The World.’”

“The Weekly Newsmagazine Le Point Reported On The Spiraling Muslim Lawlessness In The French City Of Grenoble.”

French Magazine L’Obs Reports That In The French City Of Roubaix Citizens Want To Create Their Own Militia To Confront Radical Muslim Gangs. “The French magazine L'Obs has reported on the deteriorating security situation in Roubaix, a city in northern France that is located close to the Belgian border. The magazine reported that local citizens are ‘exiled within their own country’ and want to create their own militia to restore order because police are afraid to confront Muslim gangs.”

“In August 2014, The French Magazine Valeurs Actuelles Reported That ‘France Has More Than 750 Areas Of Lawlessness’ where the law of the French Republic no longer applies. Under the headline ‘Hell in France,’ the magazine said that many parts of France are experiencing a ‘dictatorship of riffraff’ where police are ‘greeted by mortar fire’ and are ‘forced to retreat by projectiles.’”

“Valeurs Actuelles Has Also Reported On No-Go Zones In Nantes, Tours And Orléans, Which Have Turned Into ‘Battlefields’ Where The Few Remaining Native French Holdouts Are Confronted With ‘Muslim Communalism, The Disappearance Of Their Cultural References And Rampant Crime.’”

“A Graphic 20-Minute Documentary About The No-Go Zone In Clichy Montfermeil, A Suburb Of Paris, Can Be Viewed Here. At around the 3-minute mark, the video shows what happens when French police enter the area.”

“A 1.5 hour documentary produced by France's TF1 about Muslim gangs in Parisian no-go zones can be viewed here. A 50-minute documentary produced by France's TV3 about the no-go zones of Clos Saint-Lazare in northern Paris can be viewed here. A 45-minute documentary about the no-go zones of Marseilles can be viewed here.”

“A 120-Page Research Paper Entitled ‘No-Go Zones In The French Republic: Myth Or Reality?’ Documented Dozens Of French Neighborhoods ‘Where Police And Gendarmerie Cannot Enforce The Republican Order Or Even Enter Without Risking Confrontation, Projectiles, Or Even Fatal Shootings.’”

Mark Thomas

Mark said...

“In October 2011, A Landmark 2,200-Page Report, ‘Banlieue De La République’ Found That Seine-Saint-Denis And Other Parisian Suburbs Are Becoming ‘Separate Islamic Societies’ Cut Off From The French State, And Where Islamic Sharia Law Is Rapidly Displacing French Civil Law. The report said that Muslim immigrants are increasingly rejecting French values and instead are immersing themselves in radical Islam.”

The Daily Mail Reported In 2014 On The Existence Of “No-Go” Zones In The United Kingdom:

The Daily Mail Reported: “Murders And Rapes Going Unreported In No-Go Zones For Police As Minority Communities Launch Own Justice Systems.”

The Chief Inspector Of Constabulary In The United Kingdom Said Serious Crimes Are Going Unreported In The United Kingdom In Minority Communities. “Parts of the UK are becoming no-go areas for police because minority communities are operating their own justice systems, according to the Chief Inspector of Constabulary. The rise in ‘community justice’ means crimes as serious as murder and sexual abuse are going unreported – a situation reminiscent of Belfast in the height of the Troubles. Tom Winsor said police officers were simply never called to some neighbourhoods, where law-abiding people rather than criminals administer their own form of justice.” Daily Mail, 1/17/14)

Chief Inspector Of Constabulary Tom Winsor: “There are some communities born under other skies who will not involve the police at all. I am reluctant to name the communities in question, but there are communities from other cultures who would prefer to police themselves. There are cities in the Midlands where the police never go because they are never called. They never hear of any trouble because the community deals with that on its own.” (Sara Smyth, “Murders and rapes going unreported in no-go zones for police as minority communities launch own justice systems,” Daily Mail, 1/17/14)



“Honour Killings, Domestic Violence, Sexual Abuse Of Children And Female Genital Mutilations Are Some Of The Offences That Are Believed To Be Unreported In Some Cities.” (Sara Smyth, “Murders and rapes going unreported in no-go zones for police as minority communities launch own justice systems,” Daily Mail, 1/17/14)

Mark Thomas

Mark said...

Islamic no-go zones in Europe:

CNN Reported In 2013 On Radical Islamists Attempting To Impose Sharia Law In East London:

Watch The Report Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcsG-u2GtZE#t=12

CNN Host: “In One Part Of London, Some Hard-Line Muslims Have Formed Their Own Neighborhood Watch. They Are Not Looking For Criminals. They're Looking For People Who Are Breaking Sharia Law On Drinking ...” (CNN Newsroom, 2/1/13)

CNN Host: “Britain Isn't The Only Country Struggling To Contain Such Bad Behavior. In Denmark, an Islamist from another so-called ‘Muslim patrol’ stands menacingly outside a polling station, vowing to stop Muslims voting. In Belgium, these extremists want existing Sharia courts, which handle family matters, to be expanded to cover criminal matters, including un-Islamic behavior in Muslim areas. And in Lerida, Spain, hard-line Salafist groups have angered locals by demanding pet dogs are banned from public transport and Muslim neighborhoods. Several dogs have been poisoned.” (CNN Newsroom, 2/1/13)

Others Have Reported On “No-Go” Zones:

French “City Officials Have Increasingly Ceded Control Of Heavily Muslim Neighborhoods To Islamists, Block By Block.” “A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block. France has Europe’s largest population of Muslims, some of whom talk openly of ruling the country one day and casting aside Western legal systems for harsh, Islam-based Shariah law.” (Rowan Scarborough, “Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states,” Washington Times, 1/7/15)


“‘There Are No-Go Areas Not Just In Paris, But All Over France, Where They Are Effectively In Control,’ Said Robert Spencer, Who Directs Jihadwatch.Org, A Nonprofit That Monitors Muslim Extremists. ‘They’re operating with impunity, apparently secure in the knowledge that authorities cannot or will not act decisively to stop them,’ he said. ‘And with the universal denial and obfuscation of the clear motive for the Charlie Hebdo attack, they have good reason to think that.’”

Rowan Scarborough, “Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states,” Washington Times, 1/7/15)

“Swedish Police Have Ceded Control Over 55 ‘No-Go Zones’ To Predominately Muslim Criminal Gangs. An extensive report mapping out 55 no-go zones was released Oct. 24, showing where law enforcement has all but handed control to criminal gangs. Officers frequently face outright attacks when trying to enter the areas, which is a step up from the previous problem with attacks on mailmen, fire trucks, ambulances and similar services. Fire trucks and ambulances had to wait for police escort to enter the areas, but now the police themselves need protection. The no-go areas heavily coincide with the map of the 186 ‘exclusion areas’ aka. crowded, predominantly Muslim immigrant ghettos, where education is low, employment is lower and the only local business thriving is drug dealing.”

Matt Danielsson, “Swedish Police Release Extensive Report Detailing Control Of 55 ‘No-Go Zones’ By Muslim Criminal Gangs,” Daily Caller, 11/2/14)

Mark Thomas

Anonymous 2 said...

Mark:

Thank you for your extensive response (which, while extensive, may look even more extensive due to doubtless inadvertent double postings). I am all in favor of getting actual facts. What I am not in favor of is distortions of facts by any side in order to promote a particular ideological or other agenda. The trouble nowadays is that social media can very quickly whip up a flame into a firestorm. So, how to get at the actual truth? Let’s begin with two questions:

(1) I suspect you did not collect all those reports through original research but that they are collected somewhere on some website. I may have missed it but I would be interested to know what your source was. I suspect it was one of the counter-jihadi websites.

(2) Did you read the Atlantic article I linked? Here is an extract giving a sense:
_________________________
Have you heard about the areas of Europe, or perhaps even of the United States, that are run by jihadists and which non-Muslims can't even enter?

Don't get too worried if you haven't: They don't exist. Or maybe you have, if you watch Fox News or read snippets of Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal's speech about Islamic extremism. . . .

But where did the claim come from in the first place? Like many political myths, there's a partial basis in fact that has become exaggerated into a hyperbolic and, in this case, inflammatory and dangerous claim.

It seems to stem from two or maybe three real phenomena. The first is the presence of sharia courts in some places in Europe. In the United Kingdom, for example, "Muslim Arbitration Tribunals" are officially mandated but set up outside the court system and can resolve civil and family issues through Islamic law; there are also reports of informal religious courts. . . .

The second real phenomena is the rise of vigilante sharia squads in some places. For example, in Whitechapel, East London, CNN reported on bands of Muslim men who try to keep alcohol out of the area and harangue passers-by about morality. RedState's Erick Erickson thinks he's caught CNN red-handed: While the network criticizes Jindal for not knowing of any real no-go zones, CNN itself reported on one! But the analogy doesn't quite hold. What's happening here is disturbing, but well-short of extremist-run enclaves. These are just ad-hoc groups, and area Muslims by and large condemn it in CNN's reporting. There's no evidence that these squads are powerful or widespread.

The third factor is what are known as "Zones Urbaines Sensibles," or "sensitive urban zones," in France. These areas are defined by their socioeconomic status—they're characterized by high unemployment, high rates of public housing, and low educational attainment. As it happens, many of these areas are populated largely by poor immigrants from the Muslim world, creating a neat but misleading correlation. Some of the "no-go" coverage has suggested that police and other emergency services dare not go into these areas. The United States is sadly not immune to dangerous city areas where emergency-service providers feel unsafe, so in that way this is a universal phenomenon. But as BusinessWeek notes, it's not the case that the government has written these zones off; in fact, they've been designated for further attention and work on urban renewal.

Anonymous 2 said...

These factors seem to have combined to create the no-go-zone myth. . . . If you dig through the fever swamps of the Internet, you can see the idea spreading since then. [Note: The “then” refers to Daniel Pipes apparently inexplicably reversing his 2013 recantation of his 2006 coining of the phrase “no-go zones” when referring to the French enclaves]. . . .

But why, if there's no evidence for no-go zones and some of the highest-profile propagators of the idea have repudiated it, do such myths survive and thrive?

It probably has a lot to do with the conservative media ecosystem. Erroneous beliefs such as these tend to concentrate along people's partisan or ideological axes. (The same is true of liberal media, though not in this particular case.) And once an idea has taken seed, it's extremely difficult to root out.
____________________________________

Let me just add that many of the reports you cited concern drug trafficking gangs. They do not sound like Islamic radicals to me but an example of a universal phenomenon in the West independent of religion (pun intended). Or, in other words, welcome to America.

Now, could there actually be these Muslim no-go areas as alleged? Yes, there could, but we need more and better evidence than ideologically driven media hysteria to establish that.
Let me just add that many of the reports you cited concern drug trafficking gangs. They do not sound like Islamic radicals to me but an example of a universal phenomenon in the West independent of religion (pun intended). Or, in other words, welcome to America.

Now, could there actually be these Muslim no-go areas as alleged? Yes, there could, but we need more and better evidence than ideologically driven media hysteria to establish that. Each of the reports you list would need to be thoroughly investigated and evaluated.

Here is a Wikipedia article on the Counterjihad movement. It is not the best source but at the moment I am unable to find anything superior:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterjihad



Anonymous 2 said...

The last part of my continued post after the line got garbled in the posting. It should read:

Let me just add that many of the reports you cited concern drug trafficking gangs. They do not sound like Islamic radicals to me but an example of a universal phenomenon in the West independent of religion (pun intended). Or, in other words, welcome to America.

Now, could there actually be these Muslim no-go areas as alleged? Yes, there could, but we need more and better evidence than ideologically driven media hysteria to establish that. Each of the reports you list would need to be thoroughly investigated and evaluated.

Here is a Wikipedia article on the Counterjihad movement. It is not the best source but at the moment I am unable to find anything superior:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterjihad


Mark said...

Anonymous 2 May 24, 2015 at 10:48 PM..."Your comment at 11:18 a.m. about Muslims and the Irish referendum almost made me choke on my porridge.:

That is an interesting line.

David Cameron employed that line in regard to news reports about Islamic no-go zones.

A writer (initials E.W.) noted that comment by Mister Cameron.

Are you one of the men in question?

Mark Thomas

Anonymous 2 said...

Mark:

You wrote

“A writer (initials E.W.) noted that comment by Mister Cameron.

Are you one of the men in question?”

I am sorry bit I don’t understand this. But, yes, I was deliberately echoing Prime Minister Cameron’s comment. I am glad you noticed.

By the way, you did not answer my quesions.

jolly jansenist said...

Look, this is all very silly. Anyone who cannot see that Islam is an evil and false religion and that ISIS is Islam is hardly worth trying to convince. They will still be apologizing for this savage religion as the knife slices through their larynx. Fuggeddaboudit.

Mike said...

Suggested Readind:

Hilaire Belloc
The Great Heresies
Chapter 3 "The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed" with his ruminations at the end about a possible Islamic resurgence.

And this time we have no Jan Sobieski in Europe.

Anonymous 2 said...

Exam Question: “ISIS is Islam”

Discuss

Anonymous 2 said...


P.S. In your answer you should explain why ISIS is killing so many Muslims.

Anonymous 2 said...

Clue: Kharijites

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

"Jansenist" - What is silly is broad brushing Islam as if all Muslims thought and acted alike. They don't, anymore than all Christians can be likened to Timothy McVeigh or Josh Duggar.

jolly jansenist said...

I think we are beyond worrying about what some Muslims think. I really don't care what they think or believe. It is a false faith and one that has declared the Church and the West an enemy. That is enough to make me lock and load.

Mark said...

Dear Anonymous 2,

I am sorry that I did not answer your questions yesterday. On this blog, I had also engaged in a discussion related to the Ecumenical Movement.

-- Unfortunately, I had double-posted yesterday some of the sources that I had noted in regard to European no-go zones.

-- Yes, I had read the Atlantic article in question. I most certainly disagree with said article.

-- You stated yesterday that "many of the reports you (Mark Thomas) cited concern drug trafficking gangs. They do not sound like Islamic radicals to me but an example of a universal phenomenon in the West independent of religion (pun intended). Or, in other words, welcome to America."

Conversely, many reports that I cited yesterday do not concern drug trafficking gangs.

You stated yesterday that "Now, could there actually be these Muslim no-go areas as alleged? Yes, there could, but we need more and better evidence than ideologically driven media hysteria to establish that."

I has thought by your comments yesterday and citation of The Atlantic article that you rejected the notion that Islamic no-go zones exist in Europe? After all, such a notion had "almost made [you] choke on [your] porridge".

If I am wrong about that, then please correct me.

Anyway, as I understand things, you acknowledge that Islamic no-go zones could exist. Correct?

Finally, I disagree with the idea that "media hysteria" is behind the question as to whether Islamic no-go zones exist in Europe.

Law-enforcement officials in Europe have declared that Islamic no-go zones exist in Europe. European politicians and governmental agencies in Europe have declared that Islamic no-go zones exist in Europe.

Mark Thomas

Mark said...


Blogger jolly jansenist said..."I think we are beyond worrying about what some Muslims think. I really don't care what they think or believe. It is a false faith and one that has declared the Church and the West an enemy. That is enough to make me lock and load."

I appreciate your concerns in regard to Islam. There is a sense in which I am not interested in what they believe or think.

However, the overriding reality is that for better or worse, for decades now, Rome has practice interreligious "dialogue".

His Holiness Pope Francis has, of course, continued the Vatican practice of interreligious "dialogue" with Moslems...even to the point of his having invited to the Vatican Gardens an Imam to pray.

Ummm...how did that work out? Not well.

Pope Francis has declared that "authentic" Islam is a peaceful religion.

1. Good luck in attempting to identify so-called "authentic" Islam. Islam is akin to Protestantism...shattered into one sect after another...devoid of unity.

Nobody in Islam can speak for Islam...similar to Protestantism.

Therefore, "authentic" Islam is whatever this or that Moslem and/or Islamic sect determines for himself or a sect determines for itself.

2. There are several bishops, particularly within the Middle East, who disagree with Rome's interreligious "dialogue" with Islam.

However, a Pope is a Pope...and for better or worse, a Pope (in this case, His Holiness Pope Francis) determines the course of interreligious "dialogue" with Islamic sects.

I believe that during the past few decades, the interreligious "dialogue" with Islam that our Popes have pursued has failed miserably.

Interreligious "dialogue", Ecumenism...all have unleashed tremendous damage within the Church.

Ask our brothers and sisters in many parts of Africa, Iraq and Syria who are running for their lives from Islam as to how interreligious "dialogue" has worked out for them.

Anyway, the bottom line is...again...that for better or worse, our leading Churchmen in Rome are determined to pursue the business of interreligious "dialogue" with Islamic sects...at least those who are willing to speak to "infidels".

They will speak to us now...smile...then trample us later.

Mark Thomas

Anonymous 2 said...

Mark:

Thank you for your response. I am not asserting that there are not any no-go areas inhabited by Muslims in Europe. I am saying I do not know and also that I certainly would not rely on reports listed on some counterjihad source for my information. I repeat what I said before in case you missed it:

Now, could there actually be these Muslim no-go areas as alleged? Yes, there could, but we need more and better evidence than ideologically driven media hysteria to establish that. Each of the reports you list would need to be thoroughly investigated and evaluated.


Here is a Wikipedia article on the Counterjihad movement. It is not the best source but at the moment I am unable to find anything superior:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterjihad

___________

Unless I missed it you still did not answer where you found your list of reports by the way.

I am an equal opportunity skeptic. I am skeptical of “reports” collected by “counterjihadists” and I am skeptical of articles such as the one in the Atlantic. But they are all “evidence” and must all be weighed and accorded the weight each deserves, including who is originating each report and what their agenda might be. My ideal is stated above – investigate each of the reports to get the factual details. This should begin by reading and interrogating the actual source cited -- for example, what do we mean by no-go area? What, precisely, is happening in them that is concerning? And if there are such no-go areas and they are inhabited by Muslims, does that establish a causal connection between Islam and the area being a no-go area?

The situation is complicated. There are many different variables to consider. Radical Muslims and jihadists are not the only ones against whom we need protection. We also need to protect ourselves from those who seek to manipulate us for their own purposes. Even if manipulators are sincere, they may be mistaken.

Seeing your litany of reports is what “almost made me choke on my porridge.” I was trying to be humorous by echoing Prime Minister Cameron’s comment.

Anonymous 2 said...

JJ:

“I really don't care what they think or believe.”

That is a pity because it is the only viable long-term strategy for defeating the extremists.