But at least these Greek Orthodox bishops are honest! You've got to hand them that. What I find odd, though, is that there is so much we have in common with the schismatic Eastern Orthodox. We have together all of the seven sacraments including Holy Orders and Apostolic Succession in a valid episcopacy.
The two bishops say they are motivated by love in condemning Pope Francis and all Catholics as being possessed of "satanic pride."
With love like that, I wonder what their hatred is? Maybe we can learn a lesson on what not to do and say to win others over the Christ telling them we are insulting them out of love.
Why or why won't this radical group of Orthodox bishops play fairly? But I wish they wouldn't beat around the bush and really say what they think!
Greek Orthodox prelates denounce Catholicism as heresy
In a harsh 89-page letter addressed to “Francis, head of state of the Vatican City,” two Greek Orthodox prelates have denounced Catholicism as a heresy and urged the Pope to repentance.In their lengthy message, heavily laced with anti-Catholic claims and conspiracy theories, Metropolitan Andreas of Dryinoupolis and Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus condemn the Catholic Church, the Vatican, and Pope Francis himself. The two Greek Orthodox prelates say that the teachings of the Catholic Church “are a clear blasphemy against the All-Holy Spirit and which show your theological departure and the satanic pride of which you are possessed.”
Metropolitans Andreas and Seraphim claim at the outset that their message is motivated by “pure, sincere, and selfless Christian love.” At a time when most Christian leaders are sending Easter greetings to each other, they say that the feel compelled to “endeavor with all our might to restore you to the Mother Orthodox Catholic Church.”
The two Greek prelates also express their contempt for the “pan-heresy of ecumenism” and decry the willingness of other Orthodox leaders to engage in dialogue with Rome.
Metropolitan Seraphim has long been the most intransigent representative of the Greek Orthodox Church, which has retained pockets of animosity toward Rome. In March 2012, Metropolitan Seraphim issued a series of anathemas, condemning Pope Benedict XVI, drawing a rebuke from Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople. The bitter new message from Metropolitans Seraphim and Andreas may prompt an apology to the Pope from Archbishop Ieronymos, the leader of the Greek Orthodox Church.
33 comments:
So, Father, will you condemn these Orthodox bishops as being in mortal sin, as you are so quick to condemn your fellow Catholics who voice their opinions?
Well, certainly from these bishops' perspective they are acting lovingly and in continuity with what they believe as Greek Orthodox, although they are radicalized and even outside of the thought of orthodox, Orthodox Church teaching. They've already been challenged by other high-ups Orthodox Archbishops.
But of course, we all know, unless one is a coloring book Catholic, for a sin to be mortal three things must be present, a)serious matter; b)one knows it is wrong and c) full consent of the will.
The second is not present in these bishops. So there is no mortal sin, but certainly venial sin is present.
Please list the times I have condemned fellow Catholics for their opinions calling those opinions mortal sins? I guess one could want women ordained as priests, but of course the fact is that it won't happen because it is a solemnly defined infallible teaching that only men without any impediment can be ordained priests. There is no mortal sin in thinking that one might consider a woman priest, but it becomes mortal when one promotes it. The same with same sex marriage or unchastity with anyone.
Well, just damn...
There's something pretty extraordinary about the Metropolitans' letter, as virtually every anti-Catholic and anti-papal conspiracy theory finds its way into it. These prelates clearly spend far too much time on the internet (in particular on ultra traditionalist and sede vacantist web sites!).
One serious point, though, is that a lot of the material in the letter derives from mixed messages sent out by Pope Francis, and from rumours that should have been scotched more vigorously by the papal media office (including the rumour, around the end of last year, that PF would appoint a woman cardinal).
I wasn't sure about one point in the letter: is it true that St George was removed from the calendar of saints in 1968? Perhaps he was just downgraded.
"Please list the times I have condemned fellow Catholics for their opinions calling those opinions mortal sins? "
Numerous times when faithful Catholics have exposed their outrage at the scandalous behavior and comments of the current pope you have accused them of committing mortal sin. And don't even try and say you haven't because you have. And not only have you done that but used course language unfitting for a priest. I don't believe Bishop Sheen ever used the word "crap", but you do all the time. Real classy.
And how do you know those bishops didn't commit a mortal sin without hearing their confession? Do you suddenly have the power to read hearts. You have accused those who disagree with you as committing mortal sins but yet you are quick to error on the side of charity where these bishops are concerned. Father you are really showing what you are really like. You are a typical neo con priest who blows with the wind. Just a. Because you like a pretty church building nd nice vestments doesn't't make you a good Catholic, just like it doesn't make me a self absorbed neo-palegean.
Anonymous 2
Your disdain for the Pope makes you a cafeteria Catholic. I think you would be surprised at the language many saints used and publicly and some of what our Lord called people, especially the Pharisees. He wasn't crucified for his delicate language or being nice.
So I would say to you repent and believe the good news as the Catholic Church teaches it and has Pope Francis explains it.
Sounds like the two metropolitans are getting their information from commenters on this blog.
St George (23 April) is an optional Memorial in the Universal Calendar of 1969. The 1974 Graduale has the Mass 'Protexisti me' (common of martyrs). In England it ranks as a Solemnity, although for some reason the Liturgy office of the Bishops' Conference for England and Wales specifies white vestments (mind you, the idiots who run that organization can hardly be trusted on anything). I have only ever seen red vestments worn.
Do we ever or are we ever allowed to have any kind Ecumenical service with the Orthodox? We do so with the Baptists, Methodists, and Jewish. I don't ever remember us doing that.
The two prelates are associated with the right-wing Greek political organization "Golden Dawn"
I think it's pretty comical that a man named Seraphim can accuse anybody of satanic pride. Maybe he needs to look at his own pride, and ask to be called by a less elevated name.
Golden Dawn. Yikes. FWIW, there are some serious nutters supporting some atrocious things for the Russians. I would check one more layer, for entertainment purposes only, to see what opinions he has published concerning Georgia (the old one) and The Ukraine. I bet a beer, the Monday after Easter, that would almost as fun to read.
I've finally got to the end of the metropolitans' letter, and it looks like the main stimulus for it is Francis's upcoming visit to the Holy Land and meeting with the Patriarch of Constantinople. My favourite line crops up just before the epilogue:
'Truly, Your Excellency, what good can you possibly offer to the Orthodox, you who are
the chosen Jesuit “Pope” of the Jews, of the Rabbis, of the masons, of the dictators, of
America, of Ecumenism, of Pan-religion, of the “New Age of Aquarius,” and of the
“New World Order”?'
So, in addition to radicalized Moslems, we have to worry about radicalized Greek Orthodox? I didn't see that coming.
"Golden Dawn" could be a good name for a made for TV movie about a mad Greek premier who takes advantage of regional instability in Ukraine and Syria to establish a new Greek empire extending from Russian to Persia, only to be toppled by a joint USA/UK-developed synthetic barnacle that bores through their commercial ships, thus sinking what's left of the Greek economy. George Stephanopoulos could play the premier.
As a thought, only: however serious these G.O. Bishops may be, does their letter echo much of what Catholic critics of Pope Francis say and with the same depth of thought? Is it not a reflection, only slightly distorted?
qwik - Ecumenical services with the Orthodox can and do happen. I will be attending the National Workshop on Christian Unity later this month. There are usually a few Orthodox clergy/laity who attend.
Local events, such as Thanksgiving services, can include the Orthodox, but that usually depends on the attitude of the local Orthodox clergy/congregations. In some places they are very happy to participate, but that is not always the case.
You might want to check out http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/news/2014/greek-orthodox-and-roman-catholic-faithful-to-celebrate-ecumenical-service which includes:
"His Eminence Metropolitan Gerasimos of the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco and His Excellency Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco will join together in prayer for the service of Salutations to the Holy Cross of our Lord on Tuesday, April 8 in Belmont, California. This year’s gathering commemorates the 50th Anniversary of the historic meeting between Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI and is dedicated to the upcoming meeting between His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and His Holiness Pope Francis in May 2014."
I am fashioning my tin foil hat at this moment...
So, everyone except the Greek Orthodox is going to Hell? This is humorous in its extremism, but it raises an issue which I hesitate to raise…I find it difficult to maintain that all of any doctrinally sound (and by doctrinally sound I mean primarily those who confess the Creeds) Christian denomination is going to Hell. As Pope Benedict and others have said, they are ecclesial communities who possess degrees of Truth. The Church recognizes their Baptisms which means, to me, that they are saved by Christ's blood. Now, perhaps there is some purgatorial education or purification they must undergo, but damned…I don't believe so.
In fact, there are Baptists and factions of Calvinists who, it might be argued, have remained truer to Biblical teaching and the embodiment of the Creeds in life than many post-Vat II Catholics. So, I will now run for cover.
What? Pin/Gene running for cover? Surely a sign of the end times! Yes, Pope Benedict, who served as a peritus at Vat II, agrees with:
Vatican II, Unitatis Redentigratio 3: "It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."
I would suggest, Pin/Gene, that we see those who are Baptized as REDEEMED, but not yet SAVED. Salvation is obtained only after death when, if judged worthy (cf Matthew 25), we are welcomed into heaven.
I am pretty sure I don’t need to say this, because the voices and their tones are so different, but I will do so just in case:
I am not the Anonymous 2 posting at 9:12 a.m. I am the Anonymous 2 who regularly challenges the 9:12 a.m. Anonymous 2 (however he designates himself) precisely for saying the kinds of things, and using the kind of tone, once again manifested in that post. Please consider this comment as another such challenge.
Perhaps designating himself this time as Anonymous 2 was 9:12 a.m. Anonymous 2’s idea of irony.
Ignotus, You are correct. I was using the term "saved" loosely.
"Your disdain for the Pope makes you a cafeteria Catholic"
Father, that statement shows you have lost it. WHY are traditional Catholics upset with Francis? It's not because he is teaching and acting like a pope it's because he isn't. And, he isn't. Why don't you show solidarity with Francis and wear a clown nose and have giant puppets at Mass like he did, and say Mass on a box like he did, and praise are theists and Muslims alike he did. Actually you are like him. Like him, the only people you have a problem with are Catholics who actually believe in the Catholic Faith. If the clown nose fits.........
Ignotus, sometimes I think people worry more that Hell might be too empty than Heaven too full. We cannot put limits to God's mercy…Christ issued very strong warnings to those who choose to remain in sin or reject Him; the Church can only repeat and emphasize those warnings. Anything else is presumptive upon God's Grace. You and I probably agree on this and maybe just a few other things.
I am the real Anonymous 2, not the one claiming to be at 4:59. The real Anonymous 2 has original ideas and statements and doesn't react to others the way the fake Anonymous 2 at 4:59 does. You aren't original, you could call yourself Anonymous two two.
The one and still Anonymous 2
We have two Anonymi 2,
We have other Anonymi, too
And, though our Anonymi are few,
I am confused, et tu?
"For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation...." nor us as a means of salvation for them from the efficacy of our intercessory prayers and sacrifices.
It's also good to keep in mind that purgatory "saves" many - both inside and outside the Church.
I believe that, as the moderator for this blog, Fr. McDonald sees the IP addresses of everyone who comments here.
HE knows who the real anon2 is.
"HE knows who the real anon2 is."
OMG you people have no sense of humor. You have to lighten up.
Maybe Anonymous one, or two or two two or 1000000. Lighten up. It's comments on a blog, it's not exactly a Harvard dissertation.
I can't beat that Gene, but one did come to me..
Anonymi are never too few
Even if there's just only two
Some might say there's too many
If in fact there are any
That's all that I'll say. Et tu?
There are reasons for some Anonymity
It's not just some strange proclivity
Anonymous 2 is Ok
He can join in the fray
The others can go take their liberty
Dear Imposter Anonymous 2 at 9:12 a.m. and 9:04 p.m. (and then again at 5:34 a.m. I assume):
Did_you_just tell Carol to lighten up?
And I have never worn a tutu.
Gene:
To continue our theme from an earlier thread – Yes, I agree with George: that was very clever. It is the kind of wit that I too appreciate, because I am the original Anonymous 2 and not an Anonymous 2 too, whatever the Imposter Anonymous 2, who seems to have a problem with tutus and Bishops (not to mention Bishop Tutu), may say.
But I am thinking it is now Good Friday and continued levity is best deferred until later.
Father, yes, I have to agree that you have said that people who criticise the Pope are in mortal sin and at the time I thought to myself exactly what you state here, "How can he say that because for mortal sin there has to be: a)serious matter; b)one knows it is wrong and c) full consent of the will. And I think those who have criticised the Pope are doing it in the same vein as the Greek Orthodox because they believe he is harming the Church with some of his statements. I mean even you must agree, Father, that the amount of tidying up that has to be done by the likes of Cardinal Burke and others, rephrasing what they say the Pope really meant is a problem. It is a problem to me as a Catholic that he says what he says and even you said that he opens his mouth too much, although you subsequently removed that comment. Nevertheless, it shows your true thoughts on the matter. No one wants to criticise the Holy Father. Much of the criticism I'm sure stems from the fact that we can't believe we're hearing these things from the mouth of a Pope. If no one criticises, as was the cast of St Catherine of Sienna in very strong terms, how will things be improved?
Jan
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