The parish where I grew up in and eventually left to go to seminary in Baltimore, Maryland was a 1950’s a-frame building. It’s pre-Vatican II look had a unity to it, a lovely altar with six tall candles sticks and smaller ones, all of which mimicked the exposed a-frame beams. Everything was simple but lovely and in good taste.
Vestments were the gothic style, even prior to the Council. These were made of silk or some other precious fabric and had the traditional ophries.
Then I went to St Mary’s Progressive Seminary in Baltimore for major theology in 1976. For the first time I saw blah vestments with no designs on them and the stole placed over the chasuble. Some priests only wore the stole with no chasuble. In small group Masses, no vestments what so ever were used.
The so-called “chalices” that were used were called “cups” and looked like terracotta planters!
I asked a seminary professor why these were used rather than beautiful accoutrements for Mass. He said Vatican II called for noble simplicity. The chasuble itself is the symbol not added symbols or artwork placed upon them. Thus these should be solid in color with cheap materials, like polyester and burlap to mimic the stark simplicity of the manger in which God was born!!!
Today, there are still those who long for the 1970’s ideology about ugly simplicity that Vatican II taught and mandated. Just like Vatican II banned Latin, ad orientem, chanting the propers, kneeling for Holy Communion and altar railings and promoted girls doing everything that boys do in a transsexual way.
One such person longing for the 1970’s and pushing it successfully in 2024 is the Archbishop of Paris who wanted the ugliest and most simple altar, ambo, cathedra and tabernacle for the restore Cathedral of Norte Dame.
This is what the National Catholic Register reports about the iconoclastic altar, ambo, and cathedra:
The resulting furnishings, including the altar, baptismal font, Tabernacle, ambo and cathedra (chair of the bishop), have been controversial. Despite this, the artist, Guillaume Bardet, has maintained that the furnishings are humble and “centered on the eternal,” following the Archbishop of Paris’s directive that these furnishings were to have “noble simplicity” and respect “the spirit of the Catholic liturgy, according to the meanings and norms established following the Second Vatican Council.”
Here are photos of the TLM I celebrated in Savannah’s Sacred Heat Church on Sunday, December 29th. Please note the beautiful chasuable I am wearing (not mine but the parish’s).
These are in random order:
36 comments:
Only in your mind did Vatican Two "ban" beautiful vestments.
Only in your mind does simplicity equal "ugly" or "iconoclastic."
And only in your mind does recognizing the dignity of baptized women have anything to do with "transexualism."
Only in your mind is the Dem Party the party of the unborn? Lol.
You are the Jimmah Carta of Catholicism, always wrong but never in doubt!
"Noble Simplicity" the keys to the car for iconoclasts, a term still not well understood. And, where does it stop? That ideology continues to creep into things like tentacles of an octopus.
It's true that VII didn't specifically "ban" beautiful vestments; but, is it really? I would argue there was an implicit ban - look at what was created and is still being created. Questionable taste/style regularly rears it head. Try to get a Russian Orthodox priest to vest/celebrate in some of these vestments/churches and it would give him yet another reason to lob "heretic" barbs.
Is brutalism "noble simplicity", iconoclastic, bad taste, a combination of all and then some? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that ain't it to me.
Beautiful chasuble Fr. AJM. Easy on the eyes.
This just popped up in my FB feed. Makes my case:
https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/how-do-notre-dame-new-furnishings-fit-into-the-church-s-vision-of-sacred-design?utm_content=320509362&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&hss_channel=fbp-64182915497
"Questionable taste/style regularly rears its head." Who is the arbiter of what qualifies as "questionable" style or taste? Is there some Divine source telling us what is beautiful, what is elegant, what is appropriate?
As for the Orthodox priest lobbing "heretic" barbs, if he's going to base that accusation on not liking a style of vestment, then he needs to find his way back to St. Vlad's in NY or St. Tik's in Moscow. He's needs further training.
Styles come and go. Always have, always will. To think that this doesn't apply to church decor, vestments, music, is an attempt at control that has failed and will continue to fail.
Some of the young ladies who want to “serve” could get an iron and some starch onto those altar linens pictured.
My dignity as a baptized woman does not involve usurping the roles of men. Women have a “super power” that men can never have: motherhood. People who denigrate that power have been captured by the snares of feminism, proposing that women should aspire to be just like men.
No father. You misundertand. It's not the Russian priest who pursues different styles and current trends. Both Orthodoxy and the Eastern Byzantine Churches are countercultural. What was, is, and will be.
Happy New Year.
Laura, assuming a role to which you are entitled by virtue of Baptism is not a usurpation. The notion that Baptism prepares a woman for ironing and searching is a denigrating of the Sacrament and the dignity it bestows.
Democrats and progressive “Catholicism “ always denigrating humble work, like ironing,” SHEESH, what a caricature! Thank God Kamala and her abortion loving friends were crushed in November! No Laura, wanting to iron altar cloths that desperately need them is a grace that comes from God, a wonderful baptismal grace that elevates all corporal works of mercy. Tea and crumpet Catholics who relish academic snobbery certainly denigrates baptismal dignity. I would tell FRMJK to go to McDonald’s and flip some burger to the glory of God!
Father Jealous should be humble and learn the TLM so he may better understand the Latin Rite! He also needs to confess his sin of voting for the babykillers and child mutilators because there is NO proportionate reason!
Father Jealous should be humble and learn the TLM so he may better understand the Latin Rite! He also needs to confess his sin of voting for the babykillers and child mutilators because there is NO proportionate reason!
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - Sometimes I wonder if you are REALY as dense as you make yourself out to be in your silly posts...
That a priest of God would choose blatant insults on a Holy Day no less is offensive.
The host can post whatever he chooses.
Clear disagreement is by no means indicative of silliness.
ByzRus,
Precisely. K is a Democrat operative masquerading as a Catholic priest. That diocese must be desperate to keep him around!
Byz - You very conveniently ignore/overlook the blatant insults hurled at me, then turn around and take me to task for the same. Very convenient.
K, maybe you should rethink that statement. They are not insults, just pointing out the truth.
Bravo, Laura!
I had been wondering whether Jimmy Carter would be mentioned. I had thought, hoped even, that Father McDonald might do a post on someone who, for all his undeniable shortcomings as a president and differences with Catholic teaching, seemed to be a genuinely good human being and elder statesman who tried to live a good Christian life (perhaps Father M is saving it for day of the funeral):
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/259831/christian-faith-a-hallmark-of-former-president-jimmy-carter-s-life
Instead, we get mockery from TJM (“Have you no sense of decency, sir?”), an ardent supporter of a president who stands in diametric contrast to Carter—for example, contrast Jimmy “I’ll never lie to you” Carter with Donald “I will never tell you the truth” Trump. How far we have fallen indeed!
Mark J.
Mark - Thanks to Jimmy Carter we will have flags flying at half staff on Inauguration Day. Quite the double meaning symbol. Also, at his funeral we will recall a president who lived an honorable, Christian life before, during, and after his time in the White House.
Thanks to Carter we have the Mullahs in Iran and the Department of "Education." His economic policies harmed working men and women, so much so they booted him from office in a landslide victory for Reagan, 489 electoral votes to 49 and an almost 10 margin of victory in the popular vote. You are truly the Pauline Kael of clergy and a really nasty piece of work. Under President Trump in his first term, we had no new hot wars and working men and women, including minorities, were making economic gains. I guess you can't forgive President Trump for putting in place Justices who would overturn your Party's greatest sacrament, Abortion, as a national "right."
Fr. MJK,
Without question the late former president and his wife were models of decency and Christian living.
I'm not being confrontational with my next question.
How, as a Catholic priest and pastor, do you reconcile Catholic "non-negotiables", pastoral prudence and the "lesser of two evils"? As you've publicly shared how you directed your vote, if your parishioners are confused by your actions relative to my understanding of Catholic obligations, what would you say?
I acknowledge the Church didn't mandate that Catholics vote one way or another, but did they?
Byz - "I acknowledge the Church didn't mandate that Catholics vote one way or another, but did they?" Who are "they?" And they "did" what?
As for voting, the bishops of the United States have issued and re-issued "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," a teaching document on the political responsibility of Catholics.
ByzRus,
K is not giving you a document when the truth is simple. Here is how proportionate reasons work:
An example of the "proportionate reasons" that would justify voting for a candidate who approved of some abortions would be the case when the only two candidates able to win an election were both in favor of abortion. It is morally permissible to vote for the one who supports fewer abortions than his opponent.
Obviously, Obama, Biden and Harris did not qualify for this exception.
Thanks Fr. for the beautiful photos of your tlm. Simple,yes. And beautiful also. I am thankful for clerics like yourself who continue, day in and out, to proclaim the god, the true and the beautiful.
TJM,
The above referenced doc, to me, and relative to the time I don't have for it's review, seems clear based on a quick key-word search, "A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who favors a policy promoting an intrinsically evil act, such as abortion", among others.
While both sides of the aisle favor rights to some degree, it is equally clear which side "limiting the hatmrm done by such a law".
To each their own, everyone is responsible for their own conscience and actions.
I think my question was both fair and clear.
Byz - Yes, your question was fair and clear.
Unwilling as you seem to be to review the above referenced document, you have not grasped what it says about voting. I have laid out my election reasoning on the blog previously. A brief summary:
Trump has no appreciation, let alone respect, for the liberal democracy that we enjoy and that has allowed him to become wealthy. I judge that he, an agent of chaos who is entirely self-serving, is in fact, a danger to liberal democracy. Trump has no respect for the sacred bond of marriage. In his marriages and his dealings with those who turn against him, he has no sense of loyalty to anyone other than himself. Trump has no regard for honesty or integrity. He will say and do whatever pleases him or, in his mind, benefits him, at any given moment. Trump is a populist who engages in magical thinking. As a populist he is an incredibly savvy manipulator of the fears of that part of the population that feels dispossessed with no hope of a brighter future. (I suggest that the VAST majority of Americans indeed do have a brighter future, but for selfish reasons - radical individualism run amok - don't perceive it.) He has no respect for our allies or for alliances in general. (He can't be the center of attention when standing amidst allies.) He has contempt for diplomats and diplomacy. He is a fake Christian who poses in front of church buildings to show what a Great Believer he is. He has no wit. As one British commentator has written, "...his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty." The commentator goes on, "He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of sh*t." He is a transactionist - what happens at any given moment, as long as it benefits him, is all that matters.
There are a few other reasons why I could not choose to vote for Trump. Proportionately, these suffice.
Fr. MJK,
You can't even address me by my name. Spare us the nostrums on civility. As for your musing about our host's density, you're welcome to start your own blog to show exactly how much more sophisticated and superior you are. Maybe I'll comment there wondering, as ever, whether someone is posting under your name in an effort to give Fr. Kavanaugh and Catholic priests in general a wretched reputation. Sauce, goose, gander, etc.
Nick
K, so all of those lawfare cases by Dem prosecutors against President Trump in coordination with the White House show a respect for Democracy? Sorry, but a real legal scholar, Jonathan Turley would disagree with you, a know nothing when it come to the US Constitution and American Jurisprudence.
As for honesty, there is no bigger crook in government than Joe Biden and his crime family and sleazy son, whom he pardoned for serious crimes when he said he wouldn't.
You must think you are being a cool dude for voting for a Party that adores killing the unborn, mutilating and grooming minors, etc. You are spiritually sick and need to go away to a monastery.
Nick has your number as do many others who post here. Seek help before it's too late unless you want to be burning with Pelosi in the afterlife!
Fr. MJK,
Thank you for your response.
I'm by no means unwilling to review the document. As mentioned, I haven't the time to review in entirety being significantly constrained by work and a sick relative in the hospital. Everyone is getting a little of my time lately, I'm unable to provide more. In sum, your statement is untrue.
While I respect your right to your opinions, analysis of facts, and choices, I don't find your argument to be compelling relative to my understanding of Catholic non-negotiables. As a result, I'm not filled with day-after buyer's remorse. In our pluralustic, liberal democracy, and, evidently, relative to the USCCB's guidance, that's okay.
Ol' Nick - I don't need or want a blog to highlight my intelligence. I know what I know and, maybe more importantly, what I don't know. And if you inclined to think that what one clergy member, or what one member of any professional group, does or says that displeases you taints the rest, then it's a wonder you trust anyone at all...
TJM - As I said in another thread, facts do not penetrate your self-delusion.
K, based on your posts you do not appear to be intelligent; you simply parrot liberal talking points. You engage in projection like most "liberals." I can appreciate that you are too lazy to create your own blog, yet you seem to have a desperate need for attention.
ByzRus,
The Latin Rite has had contumacious, corrupt and evil clergy from its inception, most of whom could not succeed in the secular world. You have encountered such an individual here!
Byz - The MANY defects in Trump's character - all evidenced by his behavior - proportionately, in my judgment, render him unfit for any position of responsibility public or private. I find those flaws entirely compelling, outweighing any of the "non-negotiables." I would not want him to be dogcatcher, cloak room monitor, or chair of the board of any organization.
The Church in her wisdom teaches that the decision is, ultimately, up to each voter.
Fr K,
Well, we could list the MANY defects in YOUR character which is deeply flawed for a Catholic priest, but that would take me all day. Your reasoning in terms of applying Catholic principles to your voting pattern is deeply flawed and shows you lack basic reasoning skills. Anyone with an ounce of brain matter, recognizes that your judgment is deeply flawed. There is NO proportionate reason to vote for baby killers and child groomers. You willfully ignore all evidence of Biden's and his family's corruption.
Here are President Trump's character flaws:
1) He gave up comfort and ease to make ordinary folks lives better. In his first term wages rose in real economic terms, inflation was low, and minorities had their lowest unemployment rates in history.
2) His policies brought back over 500,000 manufacturing jobs that Obama said were "never coming back."
3) No new hot, needless wars.
4) Appointing Justices who undid the evil of Roe v Wade
5) Did not accept a presidential salary and donated it to charity.
6) Pushed back on Democratic racist policies like DEI programs.
You are not fit to be a priest, let alone a pastor. I wouldn't let you be an altarboy or janitor!
Here is an article written by Julian Epstein, a true Democrat insider, on the end of the evil Obama Era. Even our resident know-it-all on government, law and politics might learn what most of us have seen these past years.
https://nypost.com/2025/01/04/opinion/the-end-of-the-obama-era-has-officially-arrived/
Tjm, I love it when you go off on one of your little rants and that Vein on the side of your forehead start sticking out in your hands start to tremble. Very endearing.
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