southern orders: INSECURITY IS THY NAME: SHUTTING DOWN THE CONVERSATION WHEN IT DOESN'T GO YOUR WAY

Tuesday, March 21, 2017

INSECURITY IS THY NAME: SHUTTING DOWN THE CONVERSATION WHEN IT DOESN'T GO YOUR WAY

COMMENTS CLOSED!

PRAYTELL, that alternate narrow minded universe, typical of the progressive agenda and their insecurity, shut down a rather good discussion on this post:

Alternative Facts on Vatican II

MAR18

Posted by Other Voices in Demographics and Sociology, Secularism, Vatican II | 30 Comments

by Björn Odendahl

If one looks at church attendance trends in past decades, there remains no doubt: after the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), things went downhill for the Catholic Church in Germany. In 1965 the proportion of Catholics who regularly attended Mass was still ca. 45%, but already by 1970 it was only 37%. In 1990 it was only one in five, and today only about one in ten of the faithful still goes to Sunday worship.

The insecure moderator did not like the comments so after 29 comments His 30th comment shut down the great conversation!

COMMENTS CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#30 by Anthony Ruff, OSB on March 20, 2017 - 6:15 pm

@Jack Wayne:
The point of multiple penitential rites, multiple EPs, and on and on, has been explained by the reformers, documented, and laid out in various books and articles many, many times. It makes sense to people who read all of SC and not just the handful of passages that, taken out of context, are the basis of the Reform of the Reform.

We’ve said all this before, guys. Time to close comments on this post.

DISCUSS! OR DISGUST?

13 comments:

Victor said...: "It makes sense to people who read all of SC..."
I have read all of SC (much in Latin to get at the nuances), and the so-called liturgical reform makes little sense to me. In fact, having read Msgr Bugnini's defence of the matter, it makes no sense to me. Worst still, having read Bouyer, i see that much of the liturgical so-called reform was a fraud. No wonder they want further comments closed, because of their fear of the truth.; March 21, 2017 at 8:06 AM
Anonymous said...: I must give credit to you Father. I admit that because Francis has "rocked" my soul (not in a good way) every day since he stepped out on that balcony I have been at war with my baser self, losing most of the fights, and have written some emotional, and mean spirited things on this blog. I have not only criticzed Francis but you when you seem to bend over backwards to defend the indefensible, which you need to stop doing. But.....you have manned up and published things that are contrary to your view point and allowed discussion to take place. Bravo to you for doing that.; March 21, 2017 at 8:10 AM
TJM said...: Ruff is a typical liberal. Losing the debate, they shut down discussion.; March 21, 2017 at 10:16 AM
Mark Thomas said...: Father Ruff banned me in 2015 A.D. from PrayTell.

http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2015/09/11/let-deacons-anoint-the-sick/

Let Deacons Anoint the Sick

Rita Ferrone offered the notion that Deacons should be permitted to anoint the sick.

-- Comment #19...I countered that with a quotation from the CCC #1516…”Only priests (bishops and presbyters) are ministers of the Anointing of the Sick.” The CCC’s footnote in question referenced the Council of Trent.

-- Comment #21, Father Ruff suggested that I was akin to a Protestant Fundamentalist.

-- Comment #28...I responded to Father Ruff. I quoted a CDF document from 2005 A.D. I offered the following to Father Ruff:

"Father, Holy Mother Church teaches that from the earliest of times, only priests have administered the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick. That is what She has taught always and everywhere.

"In 2005 A.D., the Church reiterated that She is so certain as to Her teaching in question that She declared the following:

“The doctrine which holds that the minister of the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick “est omnis et solus sacerdos” enjoys such a degree of theological certainty that it must be described as a doctrine “definitive tenenda”.

“The Sacrament is not valid if a deacon or a layman attempts to administer it.”

-- Comment #32...Father Ruff banned me from PrayTell.

Pax.

Mark Thomas; March 21, 2017 at 4:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Father Anthony Ruff seems to actively refuse to think critically about the positions that he holds. For example, recently he stated the following:

"some of the same people who rail against the “spirit of Vatican II” and allege it was all hijacked – sometimes these are the same people who support a Tridentine liturgy which the Council fathers said very explicitly would not continue because it no longer expresses the nature of the true church (as they put it)."

Now the final sentence there just doesn't maker sense. If the 1962 missal went from expressing the nature of true the church at one moment in time but then ceased to do so in another, implies one of two things:

1. The nature of the true church changed. (No one has ever made this claim).
2. The 1962 missal somehow changed in some invisible way. (This also makes no sense as it would require saying that the missal changed without anyone making changes to it.)

Father Anthony's words also seem to flatly contradict the words of Pope Bl. Paul VI who said that the 1970 missal and the 1962 missal are the same in substance. I don't see how they could be the same in substance if the former expresses the nature of the true church but the latter does not.

I would bring this up over at praytell, but I've Father Anthony to be very snarky in the past to refuse to answer such questions, often simply deleting them. I can't wrap my head around the fact that someone like Paul Inwood can hurl all sorts of insults and half-truths all he wants, but honest questions get snark and/or deletion.; March 22, 2017 at 1:25 PM
Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...: What you describe is the pathology of Praytell, which could have been a great asset in promoting reform in continuity by bringing in the progressives who live in an alternate universe. I have never attended Mass at St. John Abby, but I suspect that the choir there is excellent and the liturgy celebrated solemnly with a lot of Gregorian chant to include the propers.

But Fr. Anthony is a slave to progressive snarkiness and narrow mindedness and in this regard is a fundamentalist that does not allow for a more nuanced sound position such as Pope Benedict's.; March 22, 2017 at 2:31 PM
TJM said...: Fr. Ruff at Pray Sniff when is he caught being wrong either dodges the issue (Like Father the "Inartful Dodger" who posts here) or just shuts down debate. SOP for liberals.; March 22, 2017 at 4:07 PM
Victor said...: Mark:
The difference between ideology and a principled position is that the latter allows for argumentation and discussion while the former is closed. As Vaclav Havel once pointed out, "...an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority. The principle involved here is that the center of power is identical with the center of truth." In other words, ideologues are after power to change the world to their way, no matter what you say and do.; March 22, 2017 at 5:19 PM
Anonymous said...: The Mass at St. John's Abbey is indeed celebrated with beautiful music (which includes chant) and with solemnity. The only major liturgical abuses that I can tell are that they do not kneel at any point of the mass, and that they consecrate wine that is in glass pitchers which they then pour into chalices during the Agnus Dei. If those abuses were corrected then it would really be a model place for celebrating the ordinary form of the roman rite.; March 23, 2017 at 12:03 AM
TJM said...: Anonymous at 12:03

There are more than liturgical abuses at St. John's. They have a very bad track record in the boy department.; March 23, 2017 at 9:41 AM
John Nolan said...: Mark Thomas

I had six happy months contributing to PrayTell before being barred in 2011. It was fun winding up Ruff 'n' Rita but it could not last since neither is possessed of either a sense of proportion or a sense of humour.; March 23, 2017 at 4:24 PM
TJM said...: John Nolan,

Ruff'n' Rita also have no intellectual heft. You are the scariest type of Catholic, an informed one!; March 23, 2017 at 10:37 PM
John Nolan said...: Shortly before I was barred from PTB I commented about the work done by the eminent composer James MacMillan in his local parish to get the congregation to 'sing the Mass'. This led to some disparaging (and untrue) comments from the usual suspects regarding MacMillan's work which prompted interventions from the composer himself, who concluded with words to the effect that he had rarely come across such unpleasant people. Ruff, clearly embarrassed, deleted the entire exchange. The usual suspects of course still contribute to the blog.

On another occasion there was an article about the EF, insinuating that it appealed mainly to homosexuals. I pointed out that according to a British Army chaplain in Afghanistan the squaddies preferred the old Rite as it was direct and soldierly, in contrast to the touchy-feely feminized 'liturgy' they encountered at home.

Rita put that down to the British Army being composed of closet gays. I recommended that if she ever found herself in Aldershot or Catterick she would be well advised to keep her mouth shut!; March 26, 2017 at 5:36 AM

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Tuesday, March 21, 2017

INSECURITY IS THY NAME: SHUTTING DOWN THE CONVERSATION WHEN IT DOESN'T GO YOUR WAY

Alternative Facts on Vatican II

13 comments:

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