Liberal Catholicism’s unexpected crisis
You might think that progressives would be rejoicing under the current pontificate. Instead, they are fretting about the future
Even as Pope Francis wins the applause of the world for giving Catholicism a friendlier face, critics have started to grumble. On social media and in opinion columns, they have drawn up a list of grievances. While they approve of his pastoral outreach, they are concerned that he is leaving the Church unprepared to face the challenges of our age. They admire many of the men he has promoted, but fret that he has also empowered bishops who want to lead the Church on a dangerous, radical course – and may well do so once he departs.
No, these critics aren’t the conservatives whose complaints have become a familiar feature of the pontificate, but liberal Catholics whose initial enthusiasm is now curdling into concern, even alarm. Three years after his election, The Tablet has decided that Pope Francis’s reform programme is “rapidly becoming overdue”. Robert Mickens, the veteran Vatican correspondent, writes in the National Catholic Reporterthat “many reform-minded Catholics have again become quite worried about the future direction of their Church”.
Vito Mancuso, a former priest and protégé of the liberal Italian lion Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, shares their fears. “Two diametrically opposed forces are intensifying within the Catholic Church,” he warns us in a recent interview in La Repubblica. Opposed to the innovators like himself are those who “want to return to the ‘sound tradition,’ something especially prevalent among young priests”.
Mancuso believes that if Francis does not act more decisively, and soon, he risks being no more than “a shooting star”. After his death or retirement, the College of Cardinals could elect a pope who would end Francis’s flexible pastoral approach and begin making straightforward affirmations and condemnations. They particularly fear the election of Cardinal Robert Sarah, a man who does not seem much interested in flattering the sensibilities of educated Westerners. He appears in their nightmares with the name Pius XIII.
Such a reversal has happened before. In 1973, at the unusually young age of 36, Francis – still known as Jorge Mario Bergoglio – was named head of the troubled Jesuit province of Argentina. His charismatic personality and popular touch drew young men to the order but alienated the Jesuits clustered around the Centre for Social Research and Action. They desired a more structural approach to Argentina’s political problems and a more intellectual perspective on the Catholic faith.
Francis ignored their grumbling as he instituted a programme of reform, but his achievement proved more fragile than anyone expected. When he stepped down, he was succeeded by an ally who supported him in his new role as rector of the school of Jesuit formation. Yet Francis’s opponents soon convinced Peter Hans Kolvenbach, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, to install one of their own as head of the Argentine Jesuits.
Then they moved against Francis. The future pope was exiled to Germany, ostensibly to do doctoral work on the German philosopher Romano Guardini, but really to avoid stirring up trouble at home. When he returned, his opponents found another way to isolate him. In 1990, he was sent to the mountain town of Córdoba. In 1992, he was asked to stop living in Jesuit residences.
At that point, his failure was complete. In only a few years, and despite immense popularity during his tenure, Francis had been repudiated by the institution he had once led. Because he had failed to entrench his reforms or secure the cooperation of indispensable allies, all his work was undone.
Might it happen again? When I asked Peter Steinfels, the longstanding religion columnist for the New York Times, if he was worried, he cautioned against the “uncritical liberal ultramontanism” that has set some up for disappointment. The fate of the Church does not hang on the actions of a single pope. Rather, “the future of the faith in modern, post-Enlightenment societies will depend on what occurs in all the intermediate layers of Catholic life and leadership.”
Matthew Boudway, an editor at Commonweal, echoed his point. “The Church’s more serious problems cannot be solved by a pope,” he told me. The most serious problem Boudway sees is “the incompatibility of the culture of late capitalism with the Christian form of life”. While a pope can alert us to this problem, as both Francis and Benedict have done, he cannot save us from it.
Yet narrow concerns about the leadership of Pope Francis conceal deeper anxiety. Though it is a faith committed to shaking off the past and embracing tomorrow, liberal Catholicism has an increasingly uncertain future.
The first problem is demographic. There are not enough highly committed young liberal Catholics to replace the older generation. Last September, the posh Town and Country Club in St Paul, Minnesota, hosted to a conference with the title “Can Francis change the Church’s approach to sexuality?” Barbara Frey, a human rights lawyer, and Massimo Faggioli, an advocate for the theological education of newspaper columnists, addressed a crowd of 125 attendees. Notwithstanding the spicy topic, the National Catholic Reporter noted that crowd members were “mostly in their 60s, 70s and 80s”.
Though many self-identified Catholics count as liberals, broad trends away from religious attachment and observance have left fewer than ever willing to spend time and energy trying to change the Church. Phyllis Zagano, a professor at Hofstra University and advocate for women deacons, worries that “older Church professionals who adjusted to vernacular liturgies and who incorporate mercy into their understandings of justice are retiring daily” only to be replaced by young conservatives.
Though liberals control various media outlets and theology faculties, they have not been as successful as traditional Catholics in drawing people into the sacramental life of the Church. Liberals who have accepted calls to the priesthood or religious life, who attend Mass daily, who volunteer on parish councils are getting older every year. For young dogmatists who feel bound to respect their elders, polemic against liberal Catholics has never been harder.
This spring I attended the ordination and first Mass of a young priest. As the infant children of our friends cried in the pews, I watched him kneel before the altar and elevate the Host. After the liturgy ended, we gathered in the parish hall for a reception with sandwiches and soda. The newly minted Father entered the room dressed in a soutane. He is neither a traditionalist nor a controversialist, but his long garment would have struck a previous generation or priests as grossly retrograde. I asked if any of the older priests he knew would be offended by it. He said yes, but that they had by now resigned themselves to seeing such things among their younger colleagues.
Not everyone is willing to concede so quietly. A few years ago I attended a Mass at which the priest began to rage against Benedict XVI’s investigation of American nuns: “This is evil, evil, wicked and evil! It is a sin, and Benedict should beg for forgiveness!” At the end of Mass, I thanked the priest for his homily but told him that I didn’t think Mass the moment for such comments. He looked at me and said: “I meet so many young people like you, and it makes me terrified for the future of our Church.” Before I could respond, a champagne-coloured Lexus pulled up to where we stood, and its elderly driver extended a shaking fist: “You give it to ’em, Father!”
Yet such anecdotes tend to overstate liberal Catholicism’s weakness. It may not be able to propel people toward the centre of Church life, but it appeals to many who are falling away, or at least lingering near the exits. Newman once wrote, “there are but two alternatives, the way to Rome, and the way to Atheism: Anglicanism is the halfway house on the one side, and Liberalism is the halfway house on the other.” Liberal Catholicism may be a temporary home for many who are headed to unbelief, but some who stop there take the opportunity to turn back.
Liberal Catholicism is based on the admirable and eminently Catholic aspiration for a Church and society that work in concert. What distinguishes the liberal from your run-of-the-mill integralist is the liberal’s belief that the society must not only be brought around to the views of the Church, but that the Church must also, to some extent, and perhaps to a very large one, be brought around to the views of the society.
At one point, this seemed like an exciting possibility. Critics of the liturgical reforms that followed Vatican II have criticised most instances of the New Mass as lacking a “vertical element” that lifted man up toward transcendence. But the more horizontally oriented, communal masses did seem transcendent at the time – precisely because they offered a revolutionary break with the past. Oh, bliss in that dawn!
The revolutionary moment has passed, however, and with it the strength of liberal Catholic faith. Kierkegaard identified two periods of time: revolutionary and reflective ages. In the first, people are able to leap into unplumbed waters, to strike out across thin ice without calculation or fear. They take history in their hands and, without knowing the probabilities or risks, fashion something new. In other ages, action gives way to reflection. The aspiring revolutionary does not make a mad bid for bliss. Instead, he “leaves everything standing but empties it of significance”. Rather than deny old truths outright, he “makes the whole of life ambiguous”. A principle of gradualism is introduced, so that “the distinction between good and evil is enervated by a superficial, superior and theoretical knowledge of evil, by a supercilious cleverness which is aware that goodness is neither appreciated nor right in this world.” Rather than boast in the stark colour of the bonnet rouge, the revolutionary cloaks himself in shades of grey.
Francis does not challenge the teaching of his predecessors head-on. He insists that the norm still stands even after he includes every case in the exception. What was once simply an absolute principle is now discussed in relative terms, and the terms are so relative that it is possible even to insist that the rule remains absolute. The resulting “pastoral solutions” infuriate traditional Catholics, who sense the inconsistency, and fail to satisfy liberals, who want a more thoroughgoing revolution. Écrasez l’infâme!
Revolution may have seemed possible in the 1960s, but it no longer does today. The New Mass may have given our grandparents a delicious frisson, but it is comfortingly or depressingly familiar to younger Catholics. As it no longer has the power of revolution, liberal Catholicism has lost its last taste of transcendence. Those who want some share of excitement must look elsewhere.
Liberal Catholics are left with a delicate and tedious task. The doctrine of infallibility limits even those who would call it into question. Peter can wink, nod, nudge or fall silent, but he cannot contradict himself. Francis knows this well. When he was asked about the possibility intercommunion between Lutherans and Catholics, he gave an ambiguous response before finally concluding: “I dare not say more.” This is how one speaks in an age of reflection when one still cherishes hope for revolution.
Someone who advances by stealth can fall victim to sudden reversals, but he is also able to avoid detection and opposition. If liberal Catholicism hopes to direct the course of the Church, then, it will have to do so with caution and cunning. This makes it less heroic and and appealing than it once was, but no easier to avoid. As long as the Church continues to confront what Boudway calls late capitalism, there will be a liberal Catholicism seeking to make peace with it.
Meanwhile, the man in whom liberal Catholics have placed their hopes advances on the only possible path. He is hollowing out rather than overturning, undermining rather than uprooting, those things he perceives to be harmful. That some of those things are essential to the faith is the explosive claim of a group of Catholics who may, once again, undo all that Francis has done.
Matthew Schmitz is literary editor of First Things (firstthings.com).
Matthew Schmitz is literary editor of First Things (firstthings.com).
This article first appeared in the July 22 2016 issue of The Catholic Herald. To read the magazine in full, from anywhere in the world, go here.
74 comments:
No this doesn't hold water anymore. As long as the Church hierarchy is corrupt and sing a liberal tune, not caring about liturgy or the TRUE needs of young people, the Church will be in a Theo-political mess.
The future of the Church has already been defined by the long-standing (beginning with Vat II and progressing through the decades) divide between doctrine and pastoral practice. This is exactly what happened to protestantism (beginning with the Neo-prots in the nineteenth and early 20th centuries). So, we have all this doctrine about Virgin Births, God becoming man, Original Sin, the Sacrifice, Jesus bodily walking from the tomb, ascending into Heaven, and returning at the end of historical time...but, increasingly over time, Priests and pastors have emerged from seminaries and grad schools that speak of these things tongue-in-cheek, paying lip service while interpreting these doctrines through existentialist philosophy. Marxist social doctrine, or rationalist philosophical ethics. They play the game with their parishioners, condescendingly believing that these blue-collar, uneducated folks need the "myths" to keep them in line and provide hope so the social order can be maintained (see Marx).
This is not going to go away...the Church does not discipline these Priests and pastors and probably couldn't to the extent of correcting the problem. So, it does not matter if the Pope is Leo X or Julius II (both kick-butt Popes), the clergy in both Catholic and protestant churches will continue in apostasy. This does filter down to the laity in meaningless sermons about self-renewal, feel-good nonsense about "love," and various kinds of pop theology aimed at turning the Church into just another social organization with Leftist political views. If there is an "educated" or socially sophisticated laity (see Episcopalianism), the preaching tends toward BS theological ethics, personal "authenticity," universalist gobbledy-gook, and relativistic/morally equivalent social philosophy (and this is when the gay clergy are not doing unspeakable acts in the rectory). All of this has filtered into the Catholic church and is only going to continue. The problem (as good ol' Kavanaugh has correctly pointed out on several occasions) is a general falling away of Western Judaeo-Christian culture from traditional beliefs. But, my impression is that he and others like him accept this as inevitable and try to find ways to accomodate their pastoral practice to the social trend. Belief is not an issue because most of them are in total unbelief...some still struggle with their unbelief, but most have long ago succumbed.
So, more and more, true believers...the faithful...are seeking other venues or places like the SSPX. Look, in my disgust, I was looking through all the protestant denominations statements of faith...the Methodists now state in their "doctrine" (such as it is) that Jesus was "a special child of God." Adoptionist Christology, anyone? The PCUS statement is so vague as to be undecipherable, and the Lutherans still don't know what they believe. God bless 'em, the Baptists are holding the line...mostly.
So, good luck in finding a true ecclesia anymore.
I think it can be done but the Pope will need to be willing to give all of his previous friends right after he gives up his previous name.
The next Pope, to put things right again, will have to censure or worse the print incumbent and dozens of cardinals and bishops who are AWOL from the current existential struggle for the faith. Otherwise the Catholic Ice-age just gets colder and longer until a Popes comes along who will have the faith to clean the ecclesiastical aegina stable.
Anon-1
I think it's so simple: culture is the effect or result of how people incarnate their worship of a maximum value in a given group of people.
If one's maximum value is marriage and the family joined by the power of God, then all of one's culture will slowly begin to orbit the marriage covenant and the subsequent raising of the next generation.
If one's maximum value is the exaltation of the ego-centric self pursuing sex, drugs, frivolity at all cost, then marriage and procreation becomes afterthoughts, and the whole supporting matrix of superstructure, tradition, theory, theology, etc. will be torn down or allowed to fade away as obstacles to the untrammeled subjective, ego-centric pursuit of one's own "authenticity" cut off from any objective communion.
It's been about 1 human life span from the sexual revolution which ruptured sex from marriage and marriage from procreation. It raised up the nihilist narcissist or the de-humanized Communist worker bee as the ultimate "omega point" for the meaning of life. Both result in a collapse of marriage then the family and then social peaceful co-existence.
Catholicism is reduced to a banal non-profit organization whose chief reason for being is materialistic hospitality for a purely terrestrial life.
No one is going to fall in love with that limp vision. They'll get excited by the 'frission' of rock concerts, orgies, sports, fads, or political utopians...but not for a hollowed out, de-sacralized Catholicism.
On the other hand, the remnant who kept the faith in the 'catacombs' focused on marriage and family and so have raised a bumper crop of young Catholic true-believers who are courageously counter-cultural, full of zeal for the Kingdom and are not at all afraid to speak truth to power - even the power that claims to be spokesman for "the times".
I continue to believe that open bloody persecution of the Church will happen in my lifetime in the USA. But I also believe that the survivors of this purge will be zealous 'true-believers' who not only aren't afraid of the so-called "enlightenment" secularists, but will be the ones to restore sanity and holiness to the West's unmoored cultural center of gravity.
Gene says, "Priests and pastors have emerged from seminaries and grad schools that speak of these things tongue-in-cheek, paying lip service while interpreting these doctrines through existentialist philosophy."
Note, he will name no names, just offer these amorphous accusations as if - AS IF - they were self-evident truths.
Gene says, "Marxist social doctrine..."
Note, he will give no examples. And, when he is confronted with the 1) scriptural and 2) traditional evidence that supports the social doctrine, he will be dismissive and accusatory.
Gene says, "...my impression is that he [Kavanaugh] and others like him accept this as inevitable...
Nope, I don't. Your impression is wrong.
Gene says, "So, more and more, true believers...the faithful...are seeking other venues..."
Of course, he will count himself among the faithful remnant and dismiss anyone who disagrees with him as unfaithful.
When I want to find the true ecclesia, I will look no further than my own backyard. I won't bemoan the Church's struggles - they have always been present. I won't bemoan the occasional weak bishop and/or the process that gets them ordained, because, again, this has always been a reality in the Church. I won't wax eloquent on how much cleverer and better educated I am or how my analysis of some situation is the ONLY proper way of understanding things, because I don't think that highly of myself.
Misery loves and seeks company. But some people choose to be miserable, a reality I have never been able to figure out, actually.
Kavanaugh, Vanderbilt, Yale, Emory, Chicago, Union, Harvard, Pittsburgh, Notre Dame, St, Mary's, Columbia, LSTC, Pacific Lutheran for some names of Divinity Schools and seminaries.
Paul Tillich, Langdon Gilkey, Teilhard de Chardin, Emile Brunner, John McQuarrie, Sallie TeSelle, Gerhard Ebeling, Rudolph Bultmann, Phillip Hafner, Peter Berger, Ivan Illich, Deitrich Bonhoeffer, Wilhem Pauck, Paul Ogletree, James Crenshaw, that Liberation Theology cabal from the Third World, and a host of others, many of whose lectures I attended or whose classes I sat in...for a few names.
Anyone who attended grad school or seminary from the 60's and 70's on knows this as a self-evident truth. I was there, Kavanaugh...I remember Catholic Priests shacking up with coeds and female faculty; I remember Marxist lecturers in the chapel; I remember hip nuns in Jones of New York dresses and London Fogs with their dog-eared copies of "Fear of Flying" pressed to their now prominent chests. I remember Catholic Priests giving Communion to an all denominational
crowd using a jug of Gallo red and a loaf of Italian bread from down at Kroger, always accompanied by some pimple faced kid banging out "Let Us Break Bread Together" on a fifty dollar guitar or some Patchouli reeking, Granola munching, earth biscuit in a granny dress abusing a harpsichord.These were not isolated incidents...it was everywhere. I attended Vanderbilt, Chicago, and took theology courses at Emory and Columbia...the same thing went on everywhere. This mentality has never gone away.
Bee here:
Fr. Kavanaugh said, "Gene says, "Priests and pastors have emerged from seminaries and grad schools that speak of these things tongue-in-cheek, paying lip service while interpreting these doctrines through existentialist philosophy."" You accused him of saying this but providing no names.
I could supply a rather lengthy list of names from my years attending Mass in Chicago. A very lengthy list of names. Not famous guys. Regular clergy. But I wouldn't want to call them out publicly for the scandal they caused me as they smirked at doctrine from the pulpit, or denied it all together in private conversation. (Many didn't believe in the Real Presence, and most did not believe in the Resurrection. Not literally.)
I do get very tired of liberals contending they didn't do what everyone saw and experienced them doing, what we put up with for years and years, and when it is mentioned, asking for "proof." As if.
Fr. Kavanaugh, now that Gene did supply you with a list of names, what are you going to do, begin to contend with him name by name that they were not the way Gene generalized them?
Never mind. Please don't answer. I'm too tired to go around the posey bush with you today, as you try to argue people who are fed up with the antics of the leftists in the Church into submission with empty philosophies and twisted interpretations of God's Word. Anyone who survived the Kristallnact of Vatican II and is still in the Church with their beliefs intact has stopped listening. Me included.
Fr. McD - this was a really good article. Thought provoking. Thanks. If I hadn't seen it here I wouldn't have seen it.
God bless,
Bee
Bee - It's very easy, and convenient, to say "I know them but won't name them." That leaves you in the same position Gene is in. You can make all sorts of generalized, hyperbolic accusations, but provide nothing more than your own non-specific anecdotal recollections as backup for the claims.
That's not evidence.
You can be as tired as you like of being asked to show proof of your accusations, but that doesn't change the request or the necessity of providing such.
When one says "Fr. X preached heresy" then it is incumbent on the accuser to provide the evidence. And saying "Oh, that's what I think he said 37 years ago on Trinity Sunday" isn't evidence.
Bee, how you feel doesn't determine reality. It doesn't determine history. And it doesn't determine the future.
Well said, Bee. Once, during a visit to Chicago, I attended daily and Sunday Mass at Holy Name Cathedral. Despite the fact that Chicago was then enjoying an interlude between feckless archbishops, each of the several priests whose sermons I heard (including the rector of the cathedral) seemed well qualified for your list of deplorables.
"Never mind. Please don't answer."
Speaking of lists, I could suggest that you compile a short list of this blog's regular commentators whose posts are never worth reading, and just skip them. Works for me. Saves time better spent.
No one has still answered my proposition that if consuming the Sacred Blood is such a magificent sign, why then has belief in the Real Presence by Catholics collapsed? When Holy Communion was given under the species of the Sacred Host at the communion rail, belief in the Real Presence by Catholics was universal.
TJM, the principle of "graduality" is at work here. First there was the dismantling of the "culture" of reverence surrounding the Mass and the reservation of the Most Blessed Sacrament as well as the accoutrements of the Mass that only the priest could touch, like the chalice. In conjunction with this "culture" of reverence of the pre-Vatican II Church, the laity were forced to stand for Holy Communion which in their minds was not as reverent as kneeling.
Then lay people were allowed to touch the Sacred Host by distributing it and Catholics were encouraged to receive in the hand which further diminished the culture of reverence of our Tradition.
Anyone concerned about "Crum" theology was ridiculed as scrupulous as the unscrupulous took over the liturgy. Further eroding the reverence culture of the Church. I can remember attending the first Mass of a Jesuit in Maryland where he used French Bread for the Eucharist and then torn off Pieces of it to give to the communicants whom he forced and I mean forced, to receive in the hand. After Mass I went to the altar area and to my scrupulous horror found that the bright red carpet was covered in the "Crust" of the French Bread that had fallen all over the place. There were others quite upset but not that priest!
The prohibition against laity touching certain things was never wise or truly necessary. It was, therefore, an artificial culture that supported unnecessary practices. We could just as well return to the "culture" of having sinners kneel on the steps of the church for a decade as a sign of penitence. Is this necessary or wise to accomplish a worthwhile goal?
Fr. McDonald, I don't disagree with a word you are saying, other than I am not so sure about the gradualness of it all. I lived through those changes which seemed to come at lighting speed following Vatican Disaster II. But there are delusional folks posting here that will not acknowledge the damage that was done by many of the ill-considered "reforms" (I prefer the word "deforms"). Allowing a bit of vernacular was the excuse for a radical overhaul of the Mass. The bishops should have pushed back, but with very few exceptions, they didn't. They are not "profiles in courage."
Bee here:
Fr. Kavanaugh, you are not a truthful man.
Fr. Kavanaugh, even if you gave me your address so I could privately send you a list of names, you would then ask me for date and time and verbatim quotes from the specific individuals and then, if I could provide them (which I cannot, because I was not associating with these individuals or attending these Masses as a inquisitor or hostile reporter hoping to catch someone up to accuse them of heresy), you would say my account alone is not proof, and I would need at least two other witnesses for you to begin to believe it. If I could clear this hurdle, you would then say my accounts are simply anecdotal evidence, and not evidence of general policy or practice in the Archdiocese, let alone in the Catholic Church as a whole.
Fr. Kavanaugh, this is not a court of law. I contend this argument need only meet the standard of a "preponderance of the evidence" and not "beyond a reasonable doubt." If many people come forward voluntarily saying, my priest whitewashes and minimizes sin; at Mass he is irreverent and casual, adding and omitting parts of the Mass; in discussion he talks about the Real Presence or the Resurrection as metaphorical, not literal, and he scoffs and smirks at the pious parishioners as a quaint but ridiculous faction of his congregation, and then another listener says, my priest does this too, and another says, mine too, and soon many people from all over say, my priest does this too, and then priests themselves begin to speak out and say how their formation encouraged these heresies, it does seem to provide evidence that heterodox beliefs and practices informed by the Marxist based liberation theology or existential philosophies invaded the clergy and religious.
Fr. Kavanaugh, if I person calls into 911 and reports hearing gunshots, they do not need proof by way of recordings or photos to convince the police to come out and investigate. And when many persons in the same area call 911 to report hearing gunshots, the first report becomes more credible as numerous witnesses report the same thing.
Fr. Kavanaugh, deny all you want. But please. Many people sitting in the pews are not like the prior WWII generation parishioners who were intimidated by the education of the priest, not being educated themselves. Most of us now have been to college, and have advanced degrees ourselves. We know what Marxists teach. We know what existentialists teach. Your posturing and pretense of trying to pull rank by way of your education falls flat. We do not look upon your education as giving you superior knowledge, and we are intelligent and informed enough to know the philosophical basis for the(please excuse the expression) b.s. you spout.
Thank you for your time.
God bless.
Bee
Kavanaugh, I gave you names. There are plenty more. You continue to ignore what people say to you because it does not fit your ideology...you know, like a Democrat.
Bee, I would describe Kavanaugh's education as adequate. There are a number of people on this blog who exhibit a far more profound and comprehensive education...perhaps even some high school students, tech school graduates, and electric toasters.
Bee, you go girl!!! We're with you!
Gene,
That was comedy gold! If you posted at Father Z's you would earn his Gold Star!
Bee - Yes, I am a truthful man. When a person makes a serious accusation about another, whether in a court of law or not, as Gene and you have done, it is incumbent upon the one making the accusation to provide factual, verifiable evidence to back up the claim IF that person wants the claim to be taken seriously.
When there is no evidence, the court of public opinion is right to say "No Credibility."
As to one person's perceptions - which are not evidence - being problematic, I'll point to one item you posted: "...in discussion he (the parish priest) talks about the Real Presence or the Resurrection as metaphorical, not literal..."
The Real Presence is not literal, but Sacramental. Jesus is not "literally" present in a ciborium or in a chalice. Were He so present, you would look into those vessels and see, literally, a Palestinian man, age about 30, dressed in the clothing of 2000 years ago and wearing the hairstyle of that time.
But that's not what you see because Jesus' presence is Sacramental (under the signs of bread and wine), not literal.
It's not merely a technicality, because theology is a science. And the words and phrases used are its weights and measures.
"Literally" is inaccurate.
Kavanaugh, How about the Resurrection? Was that literal or "sacramental?" LOL! BTW, I gave you a bunch of evidence above by way of names and institutions. You are simply ignoring them. Your notion of "truth" must be "sacramental," too. LOL!!!
I think I see...
The water literally became wine in Jesus' miracle.
The loaves and fishes literally were multiplied (created ex nihilo)
The wind and waves literally subsided.
Jesus literally walked upon the sea.
Those were all literal, physical changes.
The sacraments involve external, perceptual signs (water, oil, words, gestures) that we can see and hear....and the invisible, known-only-conceptually Covenant relationship these signs represent and create between believer and God.
Might there be an analogous relationship between the Hypostatic Union, the "how" God almighty in the Word "became flesh" and "how" God almighty in the Risen Jesus "becomes present" in the Eucharist?
Obviously Jesus of Nazareth was "literally" the Incarnate Word. But "how" the human being was united to the Word is the miracle. For all perceptual (scientific, space, time, and matter) purposes Jesus of Nazareth was "just a man". Accidentally "just a man". But substantially in ontological terms, this human being was also Divine because while Jesus is a human body and mind and soul, Jesus was not a human person but a divine one.
The human body suffered hunger, thirst, and agony. The human body bled and died. But that human body's person, uniquely to it, was not a human person at all.
Similarly, the Bread and wine, akin to the human body of Jesus, retain the accidents of bread and wine but ontologically - relationally with respect to God - no longer are "mere" bread and wine but Jesus' presence.
I can see why Luther was tempted to think "co-substantiation" rather than "transsubstantion" as in one sense "co-" is easier to grasp.
But Jesus was not a human person co-existing with a divine person. He is one person with 2 natures.
Thus analogously, might the Eucharist also be 1 person with 2 natures? The nature of the Risen Lord Jesus and the nature of bread and wine?
This would make the Consecration akin to the Incarnation, it would make the Mass akin to Our Lady receiving the Holy Spirit's overshadowing - a nuptial sign. Our Lady submitted herself to the will of the Lord....just as we submit our offering to the Lord. The Holy Spirit comes upon her and she conceives the Incarnate Word. The Holy Spirit comes upon the bread and wine and like the conception of a new human body/person, the Bread and Wine are now the Body of the Risen Lord who could pass through walls and occlude his visage to people closest to him (Mary at the tomb or the disciples on the road to Emmaus).
....or I'm completely off base and the above is heresy. If so, I submit to the Church.
Father Kavanaugh,
Do you believe in the Church's teaching on Transubstantiation? If not, the Episcopal Church is looking for some bodies. They'll take anyone.
Gene - There are Seven Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.
Do you see Resurrection in the list? No, neither do I. Hence, the Resurrection of the Lord is not accomplished "sacramentally."
(btw, LOL)
Fr Kavanaugh's patron saint must be St Thomas (not the Angelic Doctor but the disciple who wanted tangible proof of the Resurrection before he would believe it).
Bee is spot-on with her forensic analogy. One of the functions of the historian is to provide an overview which depends on a variety of evidence, much of which would not be admissible in a court of law.
I have attended some excruciatingly bad 'liturgies' over the years but have never encountered anything quite as bad as the 'baguette Mass' described by Fr McDonald. However, I doubt he is making it up, or that his memory is faulty. Nor can it be assumed that such over-indulgence in 'creativity' belongs to another era; visit Youtube to see some quite recent examples.
No-one is suggesting that such extreme examples are widespread, and they can be easily shunned. But they are the products of what might be called an anti-liturgical culture which flourished in the years following the Second Vatican Council, and whose main manifestation is in the average parish liturgy which is self-referencing, subjective, desacralized and deracinated, and where informality and lack of attention to detail becomes almost a guiding principle.
It has long been recognized as a problem by those who view the liturgy in a historical context without the ideological baggage which encumbered a previous generation of 'liturgists' whose influence persists but is thankfully on the wane.
However, challenging a culture which has had two generations to become embedded is no easy matter, and Benedict XVI was rightfully wary of 'top-down' solutions since it was precisely this mentality which caused the problem in the first place.
TJM - I believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes to be revealed by God. A "literal" Real Presence is not taught by the Church.
"What of Christ's body, now sacramentally present? We must leave the philosophy of this for a later stage in our study. All we shall say here is that his body is wholly present, though not (so St. Thomas among others tells us) extended in space."
(Taken from Theology for Beginners (c) 1981 by Frank J. Sheed, Chapter 18.)
Father Kavanaugh,
Then affirm you believe in Transubstantiation.It's that simple. THat's what the Church teaches.
'Jesus's presence is Sacramental (under the signs of bread and wine), not literal' This is what the 16th century Protestant reformers claimed, and it was condemned by the Council of Trent (Session 13, canon 1):
'If any one says Christ is present in the Sacrament only as a sign or figure or by His power, let him be anathema.'
So the first quotation, with its mention of 'signs', is arguably heretical. After all, the words and phrases used are the weights and measures of theology, n'est-ce pas?
Bee is the target of a typical Kavanaugh ploy; taking a word (in this case 'literal') and defining it in the narrowest possible terms in order to score a point. He even tries it with me, although he should have learnt his lesson by now.
There are a number of meanings for 'literal' but the one most commonly used is 'not figurative or metaphorical' (Chambers). So it's Bee 1, Kavanaugh 0. Trent puts it even more explicitly - 'truly, really and substantially'. It doesn't get more literal than that.
I hear a petard exploding and fear for the safety of the one attempting to throw it ...
We should forgive Kavanaugh because he "knows not what he does." Another faithless cleric, who should probably consider becoming a greeter at Walmart or a Democrat Precinct Committeeman, since the Democratic Party is his true faith. In modern parlance, he represents "fake religion."
Jusad, what you say below:
"Thus analogously, might the Eucharist also be 1 person with 2 natures? The nature of the Risen Lord Jesus and the nature of bread and wine? This would make the Consecration akin to the Incarnation..." is definitely not in conformance with Catholic belief.
With the Incarnation, there came about the consubstantiation of the Second Person of the Divine Trinity with our human nature. There exists an inseparable unity between the Divine and human natures. With Transubstantiation, the bread and wine become completely the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. There is no coexistence of the physical realities-only the accidents of the bread and wine remain. The living God cannot exist in a consubstantial way together with inert matter. With the living matter of the human body He could and does although now in a Glorified one.
It is truly a miracle that God can be somewhere and do so under the appearance of something else (or as you alluded to, someone else, as He did with Mary at the tomb or the disciples on the road to Emmaus). .
I have a feeling that, if one wants to know where Kavanaugh stands on the NT and the theological/hermeneutical issues therein, one could simply read Rudolph Bultmann's "Kerygma and Myth" and get the entire picture. It is not a very long book...entirely fitting for the depth of Kavanaugh's understanding.
TJM - I did. See above. It's that simple.
That Jesus' presence is sacramental is the Church's teaching and is not heretical. That the bread and wine are signs is also not heretical.
"A Sacrament, therefore, is clearly understood to be numbered amongst those things which have been instituted as SIGNS. It makes known to us by a certain appearance and resemblance that which God by His invisible power, accomplishes in our souls... In order to explain more fully the nature of a Sacrament it should be taught that it is a thing subject to the senses which possesses, by divine institution, the power not only of signifying holiness and justice, but also to impart both to the recipient." (caps mine) ("Roman Catechism," "Sacraments in General," Chapter I, 6 and 11).
Catholic Dictionary at Catholic Culture . Org:
Term
SACRAMENTAL PRESENCE
Definition
The manner of presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. He is really, truly, and substantially "contained" under the appearances of bread and wine, in such a way that where they are and as long as they are, he is there in the fullness of his divinity and humanity.
St. Augustine;
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (Sermons 272)
Defining "literal" accurately is not defining it narrowly.
Literally present implies a coherence in accident and substance. With physical flesh and blood, we would receive the species of flesh and blood under the appearance and taste of flesh and blood. With sacramentality, however, we can still receive substantial flesh and blood under the mysticality of the accidents of ordinary bread and wine.
The Church has changed since Vatican II, here is a prime example. I was an altar boy in the late 50's and early 60's so I remember when the changes took place. Though, from 1967 until 1994 I was absent from all Church functions because I chose to follow the ways of the world ie... youth, military service, lustful living. By the the grace of God I finally came to my senses and returned to the Church, although, being away from Her I did not become indoctrinated in all the progressiveness, My faith was as it was in the 50's. I knew something was amiss when the first time I attended Mass that everyone, I mean everyone, recieved communion. I had never seen that before. And, when I went to confession there was no line, in fact there was nobody. My first thought was this must surely be a holy church and a holy people because nobody sins....only me. But, as time went on and I read book upon book about what had happened while I was away from the Church I realized what had truely happened to Her and her people. I attend both the Latin Mass when I can and the new Mass as I call it and just pray knowing God will fix everything in the end.
Is our God not one Who, in the Second person of His Trinitarian Being, not capable of, actually, truly and substantially being present even under a different appearance, even of that of Bread and Wine? Is not His substantive, corporeal and Divine presence in the Eucharist what we as Catholics true to our Faith profess to believe? Is he not truly the Supreme Being, Who because He is such, is capable of things so above us that we call them miracles and mysteries? For as the heavens are higher than the Earth are God's ways higher than our ways.
When one inserts a DVD or some other recordable medium into a computer, and copy pictures or music onto it, the recordable medium has in some sense changed, even though in outward appearance it has not. In ages past, this would have been considered a miracle and beyond belief and comprehension. So are we now to deny God His miracles?
We know by faith that our Supernatural God is not limited by the laws of the natural order of things and their existence, because He after all brought these things into existence and so therefor they are in all ways subject to Him .
Very nice, George. Thanks.
Fr. Kavanuagh, first of all, your response is a non sequiture. We all know that a sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. But your response is incomplete without an affirmation of transubstantiation which is still the Church's dogma on the Real Presence. You really need to respond to John Nolan who exposed your fake theology but I am sure you're still struggling to find a rebuttal. You are great for talking past someone who has caught you dead to right.
Fr Kavanaugh
Everyone knows that a sacrament is 'an outward sign of inward grace'. Protestants did not deny this, although Luther only identified two sacraments. Nor did they deny that Our Lord was present in the Eucharist. But Trent was at pains to anathematize those who claimed that Our Lord's presence in the Eucharist was merely a 'sign'. And this remains Church teaching.
On a semantic note, you are surely aware that a word may have more than one definition, so to say that there is only one 'accurate' definition is nonsense. Bee used 'literal' in the sense of 'not figurative or metaphorical'. Unless you are arguing that the Real Presence is figurative or metaphorical (which is heretical) then you must concede that her choice of word was not inapposite.
A common misuse of 'literally' is to introduce a metaphor; yes, it is a nonsense but no doubt the lexicographers will be soon including it since ignorant usage soon becomes standard.
Bread and Wine are signs. They are merely signs.
That they are merely signs does not lessen the belief that, under the signs of bread and wine, Jesus Christ is present, "truly, really, and substantially."
Jesus is not "literally" present under the forms/signs of bread and wine. He is "truly, really, and substantially" present, but not literally so. And the Church does not teach that He is "literally" present
He is sacramentally present.
People can have a similar response when they hear that the Creation Accounts are mythological - that they use symbols to talk about reality, but a reality that is beyond human comprehension, much as the Real Presence of Christ is beyond comprehension.
They get all bothered because a priest or some other person is expressing the Church's doctrine in a way that is 1) new to them or 2) confusing to them. Those who expect that they will hear nothing throughout their lives except what they heard 40 or 50 or 60 years ago are expecting unreality.
Kavanaugh, what has changed about Church doctrine since 40, 50, or 60 years ago?
The manner of expressing said doctrine.
Fr Kavanaugh
'They [people] get all bothered ...' What clerical condescension! I know many priests who actually know what they are talking about and from whom I have learned a lot. Not one of them would dream of making a comment like the one you have made.
There are lay people who know more theology than you do, who understand liturgy better than you do, who have a better historical perspective than you do, who are more literate than you are ... I could go on, but if you haven't grasped the point by now, you probably never will.
Fr. Kavanuagh, well the new way of expressing that doctrine is confusing and an EPIC fail. Mass attendance is down big-time and belief in the Real Presence is too. Priests who speak like you do have made a magnificent contribution to the decline. I note your are a fraidy cat who can't respond to John Nolan directly
John Nolan,
Touche!
With his mastery of condecension, Father Kavauagh should pursue his true calling as a Democratic Party operative. He'd be perfect. Think of all of the convincing he would do! Why they'd win in a landslide in 2018!
Bee got bothered. That's not condescension, it's restating what Bee already said.
There are MANY lay men and women who know theology better than I. Not once have I claimed otherwise, so your straw man is vanquished.
Kavanaugh..."the manner of expressing said doctrine." Really?That is exactly the problem. Let's just take one example that I began hearing quite alot back in the 60's and 70's, usually from your modern, de-mythologized seminary or theology professor or student: "Christ is risen in us." There is a huge difference in meaning implied here...Let's see..."Christ is risen"... then we have "Christ is risen in us." Hmmm...what could that mean...I used to combat it by saying "No, Christ has risen." I would usually leave laughing after a few minutes when my comment gave rise to a theological discussion of tenses.
Then, we have the adoptionist statement we often hear, "Jesus was a special child of God."
Then there was the hugely popular and heretical Peter, Paul, and Mary hymn played at countless weddings ( I would not allow it at those I performed) "Hymn," which began, "The union of your spirits here has caused him to remain wherever two or more of you are gathered in his name, there is love." Even typing the words makes me want to throw up.
The manner of expressing doctrine is exactly the problem.
John Nolan,
As a native southerner—one whose high school displayed prominently in every room a confederate flag, which was its emblem (appearing on everything from uniforms to yearbooks to class rings) and was waved throughout every game and whose students sported it on their apparel, whose athletic teams were called the “Rebels”, whose fight song was “Dixie”, for which the students stood and cheered when it our band played it every ten minutes or so, and when I returned for the fiftieth reunion of my class, found that all these traditions had all not only continued into the 21st century but intensified—it occurs to me that your participation in this blog is affording you some enlightening exposure to what we affectionately call southern “rednecks” (both those with and those without intellectual pretensions).
Gene - No, the development and evolution of 1) our understanding of doctrine and 2) the language we use to express/teach doctrine is not exactly the problem.
These are natural phenomena that have been occurring since the Day of Pentecost and will continue until the Second Coming.
Every one of the Oecumenical Councils represents the development and understanding of our doctrine and the development and evolution of the language we use to express/teach it.
Were that not the case, there would not have been a single Council, a single Catechism, a single encyclical. These, taken together, represent the historic, Traditional development/evolution of how we understand and how we express doctrine.
Father Kavanaugh
When are YOU going to respond to John Nolan? If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen!
TeeJay - Pls note, I am in the kitchen
Kavey,
Well you must be running your face and hands under the water because John Nolan fried you!
Someone who delights in sticking his nose in the air and calling other commenters here "Philistines" should not go 'round calling others condescending.
Anonymous, why don't you hound Kavey to affirm the Catholic Church's doctrine of Transubstantiation?
TJM, You couldn't trust Kavey's words, anyway. He interprets theological terms in whatever way he likes and talks out of both sides of his mouth and never even frowns.
TJM - He did. See above comment at 4:52 on Feb 17.
To be fair, I didn't ask Fr K a question which would merit a response. I do question his critical style, which is another matter. Exempli gratia:
1. He sometimes seems to take a deconstructionist Derrida-esque approach to language, while at other times insists on precise definition of words which actually have more than one meaning. This is more than inconsistent, it is contradictory.
2. He makes analogies whose meaning is fairly plain, but when challenged denies that they are meant as comparisons at all - they are simply statements of fact and bear no relation to the context in which they are used - remember the Sopwith Camel?
3. He makes sweeping generalizations which admit of no contrary argument, although many such arguments are both cogent and authoritative; for instance his claim that Latin is of no use, or that the classic Roman Rite is 'wanted, but not needed.'
4. When replying to another's comment he usually avoids the substantive point and instead concentrates on a secondary one, which he then proceeds to worry like a dog with a bone.
5. He apparently believes that reiterating a dubious or erroneous point of view somehow makes it more valid. So we are told repeatedly that the Roman Rite from the time of St Gregory the Great until Vatican II was changed 'time and time again' in order to justify the changes of the 1960s. It ignores the easily ascertainable fact that the Roman Rite is notable for its consistency over hundreds of years. Yet if one asks 'changed when, how, and by whom?', a reasonable question, answer comes there none.
1. Words have multiple meanings. When challenged, a posted might indicate which meaning he/she intends. And there's nothing inconsistent with accuracy.
2. Analogies have, like words, multiple meanings. John, you insist on your meaning, regardless of the meaning I might intend.
3. Yes, I contend the use of Latin is not needed. This is not a sweeping generalization, but a statement of what I believe to be true. Evidence to the contrary?
4. A chain is as strong as its weakest link.
5. The Roman Rite has changed time and time again. This is neither dubious nor erroneous.
Kavanaugh,
As to number 3, you may wish to refresh yourself with Sacrosanctum Concilium which requires YOU as pastor to ensure that your congregation is trained to sing the parts of the Mass in Latin proper to them. Otherwise YOU are violating the decrees of the Council.
TJM - Required by "decrees of the Council" isn't quite the same thing as "needed," now is it?
And if you're going to start quoting VatII at me, I might return the favor, starting with Unitatis Redentigratio and Nostra Aetate....
Kavanaugh,
Thanks for confirming you are just another "Cafeteria Catholic" and dissident masquerading as a Catholic priest. The Church decides what is "needed", not you.
"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting." (Nostra Aetate)
Where is YOUR seat in the cafeteria today...?
Anonymous @ 1:38, the Church is simply wwrong about Muslims. Islam is non-Trinitarian and non-Christian. Their theology, such as it is, is pure heresy. Besides, Islam was made up wholesale by Mohammed in the fifth century while he was flying around on a flying carpet and a magic horse.
The problem with that passage in Nostra Aetate is that it fails to acknowledge crucial differences. Moslems believe that God has spoken to men directly through Mahomet and that the Koran is not merely inspired (like the Bible) but is actually the word of God. The Church is bound to believe and to teach that Mahomet is an example of one of the false prophets Our Lord warned about, and that the Koran is a fabrication. Also there is little point in Moslems acknowledging the Virgin Birth while at the same time denying the Crucifixion (which happens to be historically attested).
Esteeming Moslems as individuals and approving their pious practices while at the same time denouncing the essence of their religion doesn't amount to much. Either they are right or we are; and if they are, then their God consigns all non-Moslems to hell.
As for Fr K's rather lame defence of his position, the reason for making an analogy is to reinforce or support a contention and its meaning must be clear from its context. There are many reasons for retaining Latin which anyone with any knowledge could spell out. I have done so in the past and I have no desire to continue casting pearls before swine. And his comments concerning the Roman Rite (which he has never celebrated and no doubt never attends) betray a profound ignorance.
Further to my comments concerning the Roman Rite, last Sunday I sang at a Missa Cantata according to the Missal of 1962 which was issued in my lifetime. It was Sexagesima, and since the time of St Gregory the Great the station Mass was at the basilica of St-Paul-outside-the-walls. This was appropriate since this Mass celebrates the 'Doctor of the Gentiles' (Collect) and in the lengthy Epistle (2 Cor. xi 19-33, xii 1-9) St Paul sums up his mission. The Gospel is the parable of the sower (Luke viii 4-15) These, plus the sung Propers (Introit, Gradual, Tract, Offertory, Communion) remained unchanged for at least a millennium and a half, and even the language is identical (there was no such language as English). The Roman Canon was the same as in St Gregory's day, and is the oldest anaphora which has come down to us.
Over the centuries elements have been added. The Nicene Creed was not used on Sundays in Rome before the 9th century, and the Offertory prayers were only added in the second millennium. The Blessing and Last Gospel were comparatively late additions. But additions are not the same as changes. To see what change really means, one would have to attend a Mass celebrated according to the Missal of 1970, a mere eight years on. It is not Sexagesima since pre-Lent has been done away with. All the Propers have been changed (even the sung ones from the Graduale, should they be used, and in most places they are not). The Roman Canon is a rarely-used option (and the Consecration formula has been changed in any case). Most priests replace it with a prayer composed in the 1960s. The service is likely to be in a vernacular translation which may or may not convey the text faithfully.
And that's without mentioning lay 'ministers' of either sex, Communion in the hand, unworthy and inappropriate music, and an ars celebrandi which assumes that the sacred mysteries are best communicated using direct and simple language with the minimum of symbolism and ritual gesture, and exalts informality over reverence. These things are not universal, but are widespread.
I don't doubt that there are many who see these things as improvements. Good luck to them. But don't try to justify them by appealing to a non-existent tradition of constant liturgical change. The 1962 Mass exemplifies continuity; St Francis of Assisi would have found it quite familiar. That of 1970 does not, by any stretch of the imagination.
"But additions are not the same as changes."
Am I reading a passage from Orwell's 1984 here?
“War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.”
Change is change whether it is large scale or small scale.
Fr K.
Change implies at the very least the removal of one element and its replacement with another. Addition does not. Continuity and change are antonyms and your argument, which can be summed up as 'change is continuity' is more Orwellian than anything I have written.
You are always asking for evidence, but when presented with it you choose to ignore it. In any case, my comment was for general interest and information, and not specifically directed at you. Not everyone is as impervious to argument as you are.
"Change implies at the very least the removal of one element and its replacement with another."
No, it doesn't. If I, wearing pants and a shirt, ADD a necktie, I have changed my appearance.
If I buy a car and ADD a trailer hitch, I have changed the car.
If I buy a reproduction of the Mona Lisa and ADD a moustache to her face with a Scripto marker, I have changed the image.
Adding is change.
Kavanaugh, so what? You are doing exactly what I have accused you of doing, namely employing puerile logic-chopping rather than addressing the argument. Forget about Latin, you are hardly literate in English.
No, John, I am illustrating the error of your statement that a change must include a "removal of one element and its replacement with another."
Changes, without removal, happen all the time.
Your argument is that change necessarily includes removal. It doesn't.
Fr K
You can certainly change a text by adding to it, but there is a qualitative difference between that and replacing the text with a different one. If I announce that I am going to change my shirt it implies that I am intending to doff one and don another, rather than (say) cut the sleeves off the one I'm wearing. And if I say I've changed my car, it implies I've done rather more than re-spray it.
All this, of course, is a red herring. I was using the example of Sexagesima Sunday to examine change and continuity in the context of the liturgy.
Change, John, has several meanings, as you have conceded.
One need not remove something and replace it with another to bring about "change."
Now, would you care to page back on this very blog and consider those places where you have accused me of trying to force one particular meaning of a word on another poster?
No? I thought not. But you know you did.
So, MJK, let's be clear on this. You are admitting you were wrong regarding Bee's use of 'literal' to mean 'not figurative or metaphorical' on the grounds that 'literal' has more than one meaning. Laus Deo!
Unfortunately, regarding 'change', you are not in fact acknowledging that there are different meanings - 'change is change whether it is large scale or small scale' (your words). If change involves removal/replacement it is clearly not the same as addition, which patently does not. So change and addition are not coterminous, which is my point, and the example I gave (the Sunday Mass for 19 February this year) illustrates the distinction between the two terms.
Also, I did not say change 'necessarily' includes removal. I said that it 'implies' removal (and replacement) which is certainly true. When I change a light bulb I do not add to it, and adding a tie may change my appearance, but it does not change the item to which it is added, namely my shirt.
What has got you narked is the fact that I have provided evidence to refute the view that the wholesale changes to the Mass since the 1960s can be justified by asserting that the Roman Rite has always existed in a continuum of change (if that's not a contradiction in terms).
By all means defend the changes; say they were long overdue and entirely beneficial; wax lyrical about how English and Marty Haugen are way better than Latin and Gregorian Chant - but rely on genuine arguments rather than spurious ones which no amount of semantic legerdemain can validate.
Yes, let's be clear. I do not admit I was wrong when posting about Bee. Jesus is not literally present under the forms of bread and wine. The Church does not teach this. The Church teaches He is sacramentally present.
Change can occur with removal/replacement OR with addition. Change does not imply removal. Both are change.
You've said you don't like the "wholesale changes" but you have never provided evidence that such are wrong or mistaken. Maybe unprecedented, but unprecedented doesn't imply wrong. It was unprecedented that God would part the Red Sea for the Israelites to escape bondage, but it was not wrong.
I can certainly supply evidence as to why I (and many others) deplore what happened to the liturgy of the western Church in the second half of the twentieth century, although it would require an extended essay to do so, and the ground has already been covered by other more distinguished commentators. This does not of course prove that the wholesale and yes, unprecedented changes were either right or wrong since these are absolute terms.
Those who applaud the changes can also supply evidence to support their point of view, and have done so. Again, it does not prove that the changes were right or wrong. Unprecedented does not imply wrong, but in the context of a 2000-year-old liturgical tradition of 'organic development' it does imply rupture.
The Mass as offered in 1962 differed little from the Mass of Innocent III's day; as I said, St Francis would have found it reassuringly familiar. The preamble to the GIRM (para.7) acknowledges this, but sees it in a largely negative light. The previous paragraph follows a conspicuous non-sequitur with the following bold statement: '...it also becomes clear how outstandingly and felicitously the older Roman Missal is brought to fulfilment in the new'. Whatever virtues Bugnini might have possessed, modesty was not one of them. And in view of subsequent events, many of us find this claim risible.
Psychologists have suggested that a predilection for tradition and continuity, and its opposite propensity towards novelty and change, are both innate and influence our moral and political choices. If this is so, there's little point in arguing about it!
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