Monday, August 29, 2016


Two Sundays a month my new parish of Saint Anne has a special LIFETEEN Mass at a special time of 5 PM. My first was was yesterday.

The music led by an ensemble of voices , piano, guitar and snare drums led from the choir loft with a polished sound, singable melodies and orthodox lyrics.

The kids, many with other family members with them were reverent. The postures and places for the postures were as at any Mass at St. Anne. In other words there was no standing around the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer.

A "contemporary" sounding Mass with music that "sounds" more upbeat can also be reverent and traditional from that point of view.

Overall I found the Mass to be normal.


Folksinger said...

Interesting.....the same stuff you;ve been deriding and ridiculing for YEARS....!

Folksinger said...


Ryan Ellis said...

I always wondered why the pro-life movement is attracted to such sappy, emotional tripe in their music. Nevertheless, there's an opportunity here. If they want to have their bongo music, they can. And it can be amidst ad orientem, Latin, incense, kneeling for communion, etc. That strikes me as a nice compromise.

TJM said...

IT's some old loon that thinks they are with it that promotes this style of Mass. Most kids think it's a joke.

Anonymous said...

It is still a garish Lifeteen Mass Father, the point is to get these teens who will be adults used to the TLM, you may be afraid to do this and I understand it is not easy to change what they are used to. But good grief give these kids credit, they may fall in love with Latin, Gregorian chant, communion on the tongue, incense, Roman and Gothic vestments, altar boys only, silence, everything the Novus Ordo does not have. There is no TLM where I live, so I must attend an Anglican-Catholic Mass, complete with Latin, altar boys only, Gregorian chant, incense, kneeling, Mozart, Palestrina, organ, deacon, sub-deacon, communion rail, high altar, wow this sounds what a Roman Catholic church used to be 50 years ago, how ironic that I must go to an Anglican-Catholic Church to fulfill my needs because I will not sit and watch hand holding, kiss of peace, altar girls giggling and running around, people in shorts, flip flops, and worse. So Father once again give these kids the opportunity and expose them to the TLM.

Anonymous said...

Everyone who's long labored in TLM vineyards knows that today's youth are the single group most attracted to reverent and solemn liturgy, to chant and authentic liturgical music (and, conversely, are the most repelled by sappy 1970s ditties).

Copy-pasting a couple of reports from World Youth Day 2016:

From an American priest attending this year’s WYD in Krakow (Poland), commenting on the liturgies organized specifically for the English-speaking youth attending:

“Notably, not a single [congregational] hymn was sung during Mass on Wednesday or Thursday. . . . no garden variety metrical hymns or songs were sung during Mass, from the Sign of the Cross to the Final Blessing. . . . The musical decision to essentially dispense with [congregational] hymnody is itself revolutionary. During the entrance procession, offertory, communion, and recessional, a variety of [Latin] musical forms were used. . . . A Gregorian alleluia and the Pater noster were chanted each day, and the first piece during communion each day was in Gregorian plainsong. The polyphonic pieces included: Jesu, Rex admirabilis (G.P. Palestrina), Anima Christi (Stefan Stuligrosz), Lift Me Up, O Jesus (Jacek Sykulski), In Te, Domine, speravi (Hans Leo Hassler), Per Crucem Tuam (Piotr Palka), Salve, Mater Misericordiae (arr. Mueller), Adoremus in aeternum (Gregorio Allegri), and Totus tuus (Msgr. Marco Frisina). The Mass setting used each day was the Missa Orientalis by Jacek Sykulski. This was sung in four parts, and the text (interestingly for the English-language pilgrims) was in Latin.”

Bishop James Conley (Lincoln, NE) commented on the beauty in these Latin-heavy liturgies:

“The sacred liturgy at World Youth Day, organized for English-speakers by Polish and American Dominican friars, was an experience of beauty that touched my heart beyond my expectations. I have long known that sacred liturgy is an experience of wonder… But in Poland, I experienced thousands of young people entering into the mystery of God, through the power of beautiful liturgy. At World Youth Day, I was reminded how powerfully sacred worship can transform our hearts.

“By encountering Christ in beautiful liturgy, we are sanctified, filled with heavenly grace, and made icons of the beauty of Christ. . . . The polyphonies, and chants, and antiphons sung at World Youth Day were unfamiliar to many pilgrims. But they became familiar, because the ancient music of the Church is easy to learn, and easy to contemplate. And the Church’s beautiful liturgy transformed the hearts of young people, because it reflected the beauty of God. My heart was struck by that beauty. And I became convinced, more now than ever before, that beauty is “ever ancient, and ever new,” it speaks to us all, no matter our formation or circumstances, because it speaks with the beauty of God. May each of us experience the beauty of the Most Holy Trinity in the profound, vast, and sanctifying beauty of sacred liturgy.”

Anonymous said...

Maybe the girl teens could get "used to" corsets with whalebone stays.

And the poor boys could get "used to" being the "service" class for the wealthy.

And the women could get "used to" being disenfranchised and to having no say whatsoever in decisions that affect their families.

And the laboring men could get "used to" 12 or 14 or 16 hours days with no overtime.

Ah, yes, it was all so good in the Good Ol' Days !

johnnyc said...

Telling that this sort of stuff prompts a response such as..... "Overall I found the Mass to be normal".

TJM said...


Silly, as usual. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should transcend space and time and not be a political football, like loons on the left would have us do.

But since you are speaking of the good, old days, I will reflect for a moment on the present:

If you're a baby in the womb, you have a high chance of being murdered for the convenience of the mother.

If you're a poor Black living on the South Side of Chicago, you have a high likelihood, of living on the dole and then being shot by a fellow Democrat.

If you're living in a metropolitan area, particularly, you may be dispatched by a member of the "Religion of Peace."

If you're working hard, a large portions of your earnings will be confiscated by the government to give to others.

If you're a police officer, you're likely to be gunned down by a Democrat

Ah, yes, it is all so goon in the New Days

James Dangerfield said...

Use this fresh start of your new cure to discontinue the "LifeTeen" claptrap and substitute Holy Mass and Benediction. Music can be so bad that it does harm to the faithful by letting them know that there's nothing particularly "special" about what happens on the altar and that the "nondenominational" denomination is just as good as the One True Church... Or, worse still, that none of it matters as long as you're real nice to others.

Anonymous said...

Henry, you are correct sir! The young absolutley love the TLM with all that it has to offer, I firsthand see at my F.S.S.P. parish most of the congregation is YOUNG KIDS and families. These teens are not looking for the hand holding kool-aid lovey dovey Mass, they want the real deal, LATIN, all men servers, Gregorian chant, dressing properly, once they leave church then they can act like teens, but while they are at Holy Mass they want to be fufilled.

Dialogue said...

I once met the pervert founder of Lifeteen, and found him to be very self-confident. Like so much of modern pastoral practice in our dear Lord's poor Church, the purpose of this occult movement is to convince adherents to worship themselves. It's diabolical. Even pagans know not to worship themselves.

Anonymous said...

"If you're a poor Black living on the South Side of Chicago, you have a high likelihood, of living on the dole and then being shot by a fellow Democrat."

If you were a poor Black living in, say, Walton County, Georgia, and your name was George W. and Mae Murray Dorsey, and Roger and Dorothy Malcom, you were lynched.

If you were the Black Lamar Howard, also of Walton County, who testified before the grand jury in the above-mentioned quadruple murder, you were beaten bloody by white Tom Verner. Although Verner admitted he had beaten Howard, and Verner's brothers testified that he had done so, Verner was not convicted.

And if you are living in a metropolitan area, you are twice as likely to be killed by a white, "Christian" terrorist than a Muslim terrorist. Since September 11th there have been 9 attacks by jihadists killing 45 people, but 18 attacks by American right-wing extremists killing 48.

As for "confiscation" of your hard earned dollars, you should understand that taxes are the membership dues you pay to live in this country. If you don't like it, resign your membership.

Anonymous said...

If that's a picture of the LifeTeen doesn't look like there are many teens there..

Richard M. Sawicki said...

Hey Anonymous:

The "membership dues" that taxes supposedly represent are for keeping the peace and protecting life and property (police), protecting the border and repelling invasion (army and navy), and settling disputes among citizens (the courts). Everything else is superfluous and nothing but an extortion scheme to fund a tyrannical oligarchy seeking to deprive us of our natural rights and "fundamentally transform" us into a sick, socially dysfunctional, culturally ravaged, morally bankrupt mass of dumbed-down "sheeple", addicted to the soul-killing, character-destroying sugar water of the welfare state.

"Taxes pay for civilization" the elites love to shout at us. Yeah, that's why Chicago, New York, Detroit, and the entire State of New Jersey are some of the most "civilized" places in America.

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

Folksinger said...

I just read the Wikipedia piece about Life Teen. It sounds wonderful. I give it my 100% approval. The founders are NOT perverts.

Kids do NOT love the TLM....except, perhaps, for a few nice but "geeky" ones. They are NOT interested incense or outrageous costumes or Latin. The TLM is NOT coming back. Deal with it....get over it. The past is gone. The future awaits....

Flavius Hesychius said...

I already tried that Fr K. Apparently you're not allowed to renounce your citizenship if you don't have another trololol. I don't even live in the US lol.

John Nolan said...

Don't know what 'Lifeteen' is. We don't have it over here. Back in 1968 I attended a youth day with a guitar mass and a trendy young priest. I served it along with a girl (which in those days was illicit). The girl was drop-dead gorgeous but later married a Protestant. The priest preached against Humanae Vitae and the bishop removed him soon afterwards.

I am shortly to go on a retreat for young Catholic adults to assist with the music. Not guitars, you understand, but Gregorian Chant for Mass and Vespers in the traditional Roman Rite. We've come a long way since 1968.

Folksinger said...

Get with it Johnny. Life Teen is in over 1600 parishes in 31 countries. Maybe your country should pay attention.

Anonymous said...

"And if you are living in a metropolitan area, you are twice as likely to be killed by a white, "Christian" terrorist than a Muslim terrorist. Since September 11th there have been 9 attacks by jihadists killing 45 people, but 18 attacks by American right-wing extremists killing 48."

Since September 11th? It's convenient you didn't include what happened on that date. Also, while both may be small, the percentage of Muslim terrorists as a share of their population group is much greater than that of American "right -wing extremists. I don't like to get into these kind of comparisons you make above because someone will invariably bring up the much greater chance of someone living in a metropolitan area being killed by an African American. It's kind of hard to argue against the person when he or she then characterizes this as terrorism, at least for those residing in certain inner city, crime-ridden neighborhoods.

TJM said...


"Right wing extremists' exist in the mind of lefties desperate to deflect blame for their myriad of wrongs or the wrongs of their favorite "victim" groups. Funny, the muslim in Orlando killed around 50 in one fell swoop. I know your idol, Obama the Magnificent, calls most of the terrorist killings "workplace violence" like the Muslim soldier who murdered fellow soldiers on the base, but calling it something else doesnt change the fact. Most of the big cities, like Chicago, it's just Democrats shooting Democrats, but the dead will proudly cast their vote for Hillary.

TJM said...

Folksinger, you're really special. Like the Berlin Wall guards, you aren't happy about the prospect of losing your job as a purveyor of substandard music. If you call the TLM youths "geeky" (I call them discerning) I would call your flock "braindead and culturally deprived." YOu're kidding yourself, your time is over It ain't the 60s or 70s anymore.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Sawicki, why not declare yourself a sovereign citizen and move off-grid to some undisclosed Montana valley. Until you do, you continue to benefit from those superfluous, extortionate schemes like, say, the FDA, NASA, EPA, the Federal Reserve, to name but a few.

Until you are ensconced in you Montana log cabin, made with lumber from a US Forest Service managed tract, you're just sucking on the multiple teats you pretend to despise.

Anonymous said...

Gee how did the Church survive for century after century by teaching the Faith clearly and without all these gimmicks.

Jan said...

Lifeteen Mass, I have experienced it or should I say suffered through it, as have friends, converts to the Faith, who say they joined the Catholic Church not the Protestant Pentecostalism. If some people want to attend that kind of Mass then they can do but why should the rest of us be held hostage and have to endure such tripe? This sort of music should not be at a parish Sunday Mass.

Also, those who like that kind of music often say that the Protestant Pentecostals have better bands and the overall experience is better, so they go off there to live what they consider is a richer experience. Lifeteen Mass is simply an Protestant Pentecostalism praise and worship where the Mass is secondary to the music. The loss of youth in the Catholic Church to Pentecostalism is growing steadily as a result of it.

Jan said...

I agree with TJM that Folksinger's time is well and truly over. The vast majority of Masses I have attended that have guitars and bongo drums are "led" by aging hippies now well into their 60s. They have some women with them swinging their hips and jiving to the music - the word "vulgar" springs to mind. When TJM calls this music "substandard" he is actually flattering the musicians.

Folksinger, many of us find it agonizing to have to attend Sunday Mass with this type of music. I have seen people turn away from the church door when they have heard the band striking up. Give it up and give the rest of us a break. If you want to play go and find a gig that will have you, rather than be responsible for many not attending Mass at all. Many Catholics suffer through this music because they have to be to satisfy their Sunday obligation.

Anon-1 said...

Mentally, picture the Mass as the procession to Calvary. There were Jesus, the soldiers, the two condemned robbers, the Holy Mother and a handful of mourners too. However, the vast majority of the processing humanity were most likely a mob of curious street people who were also present at the trial where Pontious Pilate reluctantly agreed to the death sentence. It bogles the mind why some can sincerely think that, Life Masses, Fire Masses etc., are worthy media for commemorating that historically and theologically most unique occasion. If the intent were to celebrate the mob, which I know it is not, it might fit the purpose. The Mass should never be degraded in such a manner because it is the un-bloody re-presentation of the Ultimate Sacrifice of the Son to the Father. I cannot attend such an occasion, it would be too close to identifying with the mob and not with Jesus and Mary.

Flavius Hesychius said...

Anon, I pay Mexican and American taxes, but I'm fairly certain I don't benefit from the FDA. Nor would I want to, given how expensive prescriptions are in the US compared to Mexico.

Anonymous said...

FH - Oh, you benefit GREATLY from the FDA.

FDA is responsible for protecting the public health by assuring the safety, efficacy and security of human and veterinary drugs, biological products, medical devices, our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, and products that emit radiation.

FDA is also responsible for advancing the public health by helping to speed innovations that make medicines more effective, safer, and more affordable and by helping the public get the accurate, science-based information they need to use medicines and foods to maintain and improve their health. FDA also has responsibility for regulating the manufacturing, marketing and distribution of tobacco products to protect the public health and to reduce tobacco use by minors.

Finally, FDA plays a significant role in the Nation’s counterterrorism capability. FDA fulfills this responsibility by ensuring the security of the food supply and by fostering development of medical products to respond to deliberate and naturally emerging public health threats.


rcg said...

Taxes are imposed and are not voluntary. Many taxes, if not most in the USA, can be avoided by behavior changes such as not purchasing certain items and adjusting your own income. You have to decide how badly you want to do something and if you can come to terms with the tax. If you can't come to peace with the tax and still feel that you must do the thing that is taxed then you have to find another place to do it.

Flavius Hesychius said...

Anon, I live in Mexico. FDA regulations don't mean a damn thing here, since Mexico is a sovereign nation. Once again, I don't benefit from the FDA. You keep saying 'our nation' and 'the nation' when we don't even live in the same nation. Por eso, no sé lo que dices. I may have been born in the US, but it is not my nation.

John Nolan said...

'Folksinger' is such a 'sixties throwback that he can't be real.

Flavius Hesychius said...

And, Anon, since you now understand that Mexico is not the United States, here's a link to the Mexican Secretary of Health's website. You'll find our equivalent to the FDA (the SSA) on this site.


Have fun exploring the site, Anon/Fr. K

Flavius Hesychius said...

Unfortunately, rcg, the US taxes all income made by American nationals, regardless of where they live. If you give up your citizenship, you'll get taxed for that, too. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Simultaneously, the US won't let you give up your citizenship if you only have US citizenship. I tried when I arrived in Mexico, only to be informed I couldn't for the aforementioned reason.

Richard m. Sawicki said...

Oh Anonymous (why do they always hide their identities)...

..."you're just sucking on the multiple teats you pretend to despise."...

I suck no teats!

As for the benevolence of the statist Alphabet Soup you named...

My sister's health in endangered BECAUSE OF the EPA. They're behind the removal of over-the-counter rescue inhalers for asthmatics, allegedly because of the CFC propellants. However I notice hairsprays and other non-essentials continue to be freely sold!!

The FDA stands in the way of letting Americans have access to many life saving drugs and treatments that are working wonderfully in other countries, including cancer treatments in Poland.

The existence of the Federal Reserve is an absolutely abominable violation of Congress' authority over issuing currency, and having removed us from the gold standard (thanks a lot Nixon!), substituting a fiat currency whose value is arbitrarily determined by the twelve member cabal, will eventually lead to a collapse of the currency when the welfare state liability reaches the breaking point (which it will soon! 19 trillion and counting! Tick...tick...tick!).

What is it about liberty, individual rights, limited government and constitutional freedom that is so repulsive folks like you?


Rather than tell me to go live in the forest in Montana, why don't you move to one of those glorious socialist paradises like Greece, Venezuela, Cuba, or California, and leave the rest of us to unabashedly advocate for the American way of life, which is to say, something DIFFERENT from the way all those other places in Europe and Latin America?

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

Anonymous said...

Richard - When the FDA, or any other agency, makes a determination on some product, chemical, or compound, the expectation that this determination will be beneficial to 100% of the population is a unreasonable expectation.

An example: When a government agency determines that a new sewage treatment plant will benefit 99.9% of the people living in a community, and when that government agency takes by eminent domain the property of the Smith family for the construction of the sewage treatment plant, paying the family the legally required amount for the land, you can bet the Smith family will, shall we say, not be pleased. They may even suffer, relatively, I one way or another.

We go the greatest good for the greatest number. We don't try what you want - to make everyone happy. (That's a socialist notion, by the way.)

I'm not interested in living anywhere else because this country is the best, and I will advocate for it till I have no breath left for advocacy.

What I will not do is, as you have done, enjoy the benefits provided through legitimate taxation, and then complain that this taxation is onerous.

TJM said...


I doubt you pay any meaningful taxes. You sound like a taker, not a maker. Taxes are not a substitute for private charity, something most liberals are confused about.

johnnyc said...

"Life Teen is in over 1600 parishes in 31 countries"

Yes well mediocre is in these days.

Flavius Hesychius said...

this country is the best

Lol, okay.

Jusadbellum said...

It's pointless to argue over taste.... but it's entirely relevant to argue over the data. I am very interested to know if anyone keeps data on the participants of Lifeteen to see how many of them go on to stay active in the Church in college and then beyond.

That's the meat and potatoes: does it work? Does this sort of age-cohort specific Mass reinforce a Catholic world view and allegiance in young teen hearts such that they persevere in the faith in college and into adulthood...or are we seeing a massive falling away in college despite Lifeteen?

Does anyone have any source for data on this subject?

Similarly, many people are Democrat or Republican for essentially tribal or taste reason (to be cool, to be hip, to be part of the 'in' crowd). But again, our politics ought to be data-driven.

There is copious public data on the results on Public policy and particular PERSONNEL who implement a given piece of policy in a county, city, state, and on the federal level.

If bureaucracy X was created to address and "solve" problem Y but over 10+ years and untold billions of dollars later the problem is worse.... can't we at least beg to differ on the wisdom of keeping said bureaucracy?

If a given law or regulatory scheme or political agenda results in quantifiable INCREASES in the parade of horrible outcomes it was created to address and reduce....might we not have grounds to question either the policy or the personnel or both?

Thus Democrats decry racism in Ferguson or Baltimore and lay the blame on generalized "racism" when in point of fact, both towns are overwhelmingly Democrat, run by Democrats, who hire the police chief, who determine the rules, local codes and laws and taxes etc.... if racism is STILL a problem for blacks in cities RUN by Democratic what rational way can racism be caused by nebulous outsiders and not by the locals themselves?

Carol H. said...

Someone named Carl asked us to pray for the Diocese of Detroit MI about a year or two ago. I saw on Facebook today that downtown Detroit is getting an EF parish in October.

Deo Gratias!

Prayer works!

rcg said...

Flav, you can flee state income tax or sales taxes by moving to another state or city. If you want to avoid US Federal taxes you have to renounce citizenship and there are still some things to watch for. It is not easy to escape, for sure.

Back to the thread: I think it would be interesting for FrAJM to see if any of his young people would be interested in learning the parts of the EF and study that versus the LIFETEEN! (R) Mass. Certainly an opportunity for growth in understanding of their Church.

CPA said...

Jusad, while you're gathering stats, find out how many teens who get hauled into Latin Masses by their parents continue on when they reach college and beyond?

Dialogue said...


Great question! Once we determine which form of Mass is most effective at promoting long-term fidelity to the Church, we can drop the losing form and just have the winning form. Brilliant!

Anonymous said...

Yes, tell us about those who attend the EF who exhibit long-term fidelity.

Start your data search with all those who attended the Extraordinary Form (then the Only Form) of the Mass who 1) started virtually every war for greed and dominance in Europe for 1000 years; 2) colonized and oppressed large portions of the world in order to strip them of their natural resources, killing millions in the process; 3) who whored and nepotized and simonized the Holy See into a cesspool of sin for hundreds of years, opening the door for the Protestant Reformation; etc...

TJM said...

Anonymous at 8:28

You sound unhinged. Perhaps ObamaCare covers mental illness. Seek help.

Flavius Hesychius said...

I'm fairly certain number 3 is still true 50 years after the OF came about lol...

Anonymous said...

TJM - Noting history makes me "unhinged." Hmmm....

TJM said...


Your "history" has nothing to do with the sanctity or efficacy of the EF.

But here goes with your idiotic assertions:

Start your data search with all those who attended the Extraordinary Form (then the Only Form) of the Mass who 1) started virtually every war for greed and dominance in Europe for 1000 years;

Not every war is for greed or dominance, many are defensive in nature. The most destructive and costly in terms of human life have been caused by totalitarian and atheistic left-wing regimes like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

2) colonized and oppressed large portions of the world in order to strip them of their natural resources, killing millions in the process;

Colonization raised the living standards and life expectancy of millions in large portions of the world. The most oppressed are oppressed by their own kind such as Big Daddy Amin.

3) who whored and nepotized and simonized the Holy See into a cesspool of sin for hundreds of years, opening the door for the Protestant Reformation; etc...

Yes, some clerics did that but that was over 500 years ago. And Henry VIII whored and nepotized himself into Anglicanism

Do you get up in the morning and take stupid pills?

Dialogue said...


If all the persons you mention attended Mass in the same "form", then what is the point of counting them?

Anonymous said...

"Not every war is for greed or dominance, many are defensive in nature."

Well, in Europe, who do you think made the OFFENSIVE attack in the first place? Long before Hitler and Stalin (Mao wasn't European) it was Catholics who attended Mass celebrated in the "only" form, what we now know as the EF.

"Colonization raised the living standards and life expectancy of millions in large portions of the world."

Tell that to the millions who died in the Belgian Congo under the dictatorship of the "Catholic" Leopold II.

"Yes, some clerics did that but that was over 500 years ago."

"Some Catholics" included popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, and other clerics. ALL of them attended the EF over 500 years ago.

The form of the Mass preferred by you did not prevent the atrocities. How, now, is it going to prevent sinful behavior more effectively than the OF?

The EF is not some magical panacea. It has a proven track record.

John Nolan said...


No need to refute idiotic arguments which collapse under the weight of their own absurdity.

Those that attended the Mass of 1962 presumably also included the Moslem invaders and conquerors, Genghis Kahn and his Mongol hordes, not to mention those English protestants who colonized north America.

By the way, Americans who criticize colonialism should stop and consider where they would be without it!

Anonymous said...

I don't know too many "Moslem" invaders who attended Mass - in any form.

And since when was Genghis Kahn a church-going Catholic?

The idea that the atrocious history of European colonialism cannot be criticized because America was once a collection of colonies is silly.

Colonies such as ours threw off the yoke of our imperial despots for good reason.

Among them:

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

Faithful Catholic said...

Anonymous at 8:28 AM

From Stalin to Mao to Hitler to Pol Pot to Idi Amin, there is no comparison to how many more were oppressed and killed by those butchers and tyrants versus how many were oppressed and killed by Catholics in the whole history of the Church. Mind you, what Mssr Stalin and the rest "accomplished" was just in one century. Atheism did far more evil than those Catholics, many in name only, could even conceive of doing. And need we bring up how many were oppressed, subjugated and murdered by the followers of Mohammed? At least the Catholics brought with them the attendant benefits of the Faith and the Sacraments and the temporal developments which contributed greatly to the advance of civilization.

John Nolan said...

Sorry, Anonymous. Quoting the overblown rhetoric of the winning side in the first American Civil War (1776-1783) does not disguise the fact that colonization is usually the settlement of inhabited territories by non-indigenous peoples, usually to the detriment of the latter. One of the grievances of the rebels was the attempt by the British government to prevent further expansion into Indian territory.

Free from that restraint, the United States went on to colonize an entire continent, although they preferred to call it 'manifest destiny'. They also fought another and far bloodier Civil War (1861-1865) to underscore the point that secession from London was one thing, but the same principles did not apply when it came to secession from Washington.

Before displaying your ignorance of European history, take some time to study your own.

Dialogue said...

John Nolan,

There is a distinction sometimes made between imperialism and colonialism, with the latter at least implicitly aimed at an evolution towards independence or some kind of confederation of equals. Apart from the settler colonies, there will always be charges of oppression against the former colonizers, but there was also an evident stability of improvement that was often not sustained after independence. But we can thank the former colonial powers for introducing around the globe: free trade, mass education in international languages, impartial justice, representative democracy, and--although colonials for a short time participated in this African and Arabic practice--the abolition of the slavery.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, Mr. Nolan, but your judgment on the Founding Fathers of our country rings hollow. Didn't you say something recently about learning humility? Yes, you said, "Learn some humility. It's always unedifying when great men are mocked by pygmies." So, while you cast aspersions on Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Roger Sherman, and Robert Livingston and accuse them of using "overblown rhetoric," you condemn yourself by your own words.

Enjoy your pygmy petard party!

The "Catholic" Leopold who attended the Roman Rite was not sanctified by doing so, the claim that many make here in defense of the EF. He murdered millions in the Belgian Congo. That's not "ignorance of European history," it is a fact.

John Nolan said...


Indeed, but I have found that Americans (some of them reasonably educated) like to see themselves historically as victims of colonialism, whereas they were in fact the main beneficiaries of it.

Imperialism does not in itself imply colonialism in that it is not necessarily concerned with settlement. The Roman Empire in the West was an astonishingly successful enterprise in terms of a common language, common law, common currency and (to the benefit of the Catholic Church) a common religion.

The imperialism of Napoleon and Hitler was defeated because England was not prepared to tolerate it. And the neo-imperialism of the European Union is going the same way and for the same reason.

John Nolan said...


I made no reference to your revered 'Founding Fathers'. I did, however, suggest that the rhetoric of the so-called 'Patriots' was overblown and exaggerated, and serious historians on both sides of the Atlantic agree on this.

I don't buy into historical myth, whomsoever it concerns. Leopold II's record in the Congo is deplorable, as is England's record in Ireland, as is the record of the US with regard to the indigenous peoples of north America.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Roman Rite, outlawed by the Tudors who were long regarded as the 'Founding Fathers' of the modern English state.

rcg said...

Anon, You misportray criticism of the American Revolution. The Colonists were not anti-British but determined to express a level of self determination the British did not like but could not suppress. If the George of the Eastern Atlantic had been prepared, or capable, of experimenting with commonwealth government the George of the West might have endorsed it. The same can be said the the American Civil War. The Union was far more important to the government than the civil rights of negros, but the causes were handy allies in what was actually an internal trade war between the states with similar economic systems.

Flavius Hesychius said...

There is absolutely no way to read the Declaration of Independence objectively without coming to the conclusion that it is, in part, nonsense.

For example,

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

The last monarch to refuse royal assent to a law passed by Parliament was Anne, who ruled 80 years before George III.

Going further, one finds this:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

This is in reference to the Quebec Act, which allowed, amongst other things, the Quebecois to keep their religion and system of government.

And, my favourite:

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

But hey, the Americans turned right around in the first third of the 19th century and engineered a war with Mexico in order to reach the Pacific Ocean and gain (amongst others) the prizes of Texas and Alta California. I do, however, find it amusing that a series of events leading to the Mexican-American War was started by, of all things, illegal immigration of Anglos to Mexican Texas, and a refusal by the Anglo-Texans to respect the laws of Mexico (including learning Spanish). There's a delicious irony given America's present immigrant situation.

Jusadbellum said...

This very back and forth including the accurate (albeit unpopular) point of John Nolan about the principle invoked for the DoI and then repudiated in the call to enforce the Union points to my many posts wherein I predict open and bloody persecution of Catholics "qua" Catholics in the United States of America by fellow Americans both representing the official government ideology (anti-Christian secular hedonism) and by vigilante paramilitaries either in concert with the government or on their own.

I say this because human nature does not change and world history is full of tyranny of the many by the ruthless few. The vast majority of civilian deaths the world over in the past 200 years have been piled up by the repression of civilians by their own governments. Vastly more people have been killed in the past 100 years at the hands of their OWN governments (run as oligarchies wherein the ruling class both despised and feared those out of power).

Mexico OUTLAWED the Catholic Church, nationalized all churches, schools, hospitals etc. and began an aggressive drive to secularization, atheism, sex-education etc. in the 1920s despite the country being nominally 80% Catholic.

Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, and other lands all saw similar general social and political repudiation of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular by former Catholics becoming secular hedonists. These folk are desperate for 'heaven on earth' which they see as something only their cultural and political forces can accomplish and which only Catholics (qua faithful, sincere, 'true believers) can stymie. Thus over and over across the centuries and cultures, open bloodshed has always been justified in the name of this ungodly kingdom 'to come' based on the will of mere mortals.

The way the 'institutional' church as frittered away it's leadership - akin to how the Church in England threw in with Henry VIII - follows the same basic template of general apostasy from the top down. If we're anything like our English ancestors, the amount of ferocity and petty-vindictiveness of our Secular anti-Catholics will be off the charts.

You think the LGBTQ will stop? There IS NO internal 'braking' system in that ideology. There IS NO internal control for "this far and no farther". Ditto with the "deep ecologists" and the new age/nebulous spirituality/wiccans/Satanists.... there's no internal dogma which would forbid them from participation in pogroms and purges....just as there's no internal dogma on the Left which would hold any aspect of life sacred or out of bounds for government regulation.

Human culture is based on worship and worship is ALWAYS totalizing. It's a fact of human nature that any culture will seek to expand forever until outside forces stop and roll it back either by subversion or frontal assault.

The storm is coming. We can join the Leviathan, go underground, or stand up and see what this beast is made of and what WE are made of.

Flavius Hesychius said...

*Should be 60 years before Geor. III, not 80.

Anonymous said...

rcg - I didn't portray the American Revolution in any way, shape, or form, and I never said colonists were anti-British. I quoted from the Declaration of Independence.

John - I quoted from the Declaration of Independence which was written by the people I named.

You said, "Quoting the overblown rhetoric of the winning side in the first American Civil War..."

Now, the ONLY people I quoted were Founding Fathers. You did, therefore, make reference to the Founding Fathers who wrote the "overblown rhetoric." To claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest on its face.

Quoting your own words again, "It's always unedifying when great men are mocked by pygmies."

Dialogue said...

Given the travel time to and from London, there was no way to admit Americans to regular service in the House of Commons, and that was the crucial issue.

John Nolan said...


Indeed, the issue was constitutional liberty as understood by 18th century Britons, which is why so many prominent figures in England supported the Americans. The solution was representative government and a federal system, and had this been granted, there would have been no need for a revolution which sparked a civil war.

The British conceded that the Americans had been right in principle since this was what was later applied in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and (less successfully) in South Africa.

One issue from the 1770s was still around at the beginning of the 20th century; the white Dominions wanted the benefits of Empire but expected the mother country to bear most of the costs of Imperial defence.