tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post3395325249982072264..comments2024-03-28T05:17:04.006-04:00Comments on southern orders: MY FIRST LIFETEEN MASS, EVERRRRR! BUT NOT YOUR FATHER'S LIFETEEN MASS!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18823812896112883372016-09-04T19:50:58.413-04:002016-09-04T19:50:58.413-04:00Dialogue,
Indeed, the issue was constitutional li...Dialogue,<br /><br />Indeed, the issue was constitutional liberty as understood by 18th century Britons, which is why so many prominent figures in England supported the Americans. The solution was representative government and a federal system, and had this been granted, there would have been no need for a revolution which sparked a civil war.<br /><br />The British conceded that the Americans had been right in principle since this was what was later applied in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and (less successfully) in South Africa.<br /><br />One issue from the 1770s was still around at the beginning of the 20th century; the white Dominions wanted the benefits of Empire but expected the mother country to bear most of the costs of Imperial defence. <br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6472893568623131182016-09-02T07:32:19.065-04:002016-09-02T07:32:19.065-04:00Given the travel time to and from London, there wa...Given the travel time to and from London, there was no way to admit Americans to regular service in the House of Commons, and that was the crucial issue. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57404290523389943052016-09-01T18:27:57.419-04:002016-09-01T18:27:57.419-04:00rcg - I didn't portray the American Revolution...rcg - I didn't portray the American Revolution in any way, shape, or form, and I never said colonists were anti-British. I quoted from the Declaration of Independence.<br /><br />John - I quoted from the Declaration of Independence which was written by the people I named.<br /><br />You said, "Quoting the overblown rhetoric of the winning side in the first American Civil War..."<br /><br />Now, the ONLY people I quoted were Founding Fathers. You did, therefore, make reference to the Founding Fathers who wrote the "overblown rhetoric." To claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest on its face.<br /><br />Quoting your own words again, "It's always unedifying when great men are mocked by pygmies." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90494794593143541382016-09-01T16:28:49.134-04:002016-09-01T16:28:49.134-04:00*Should be 60 years before Geor. III, not 80.*Should be 60 years before Geor. III, not 80.Flavius Hesychiusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31825222349936123032016-09-01T16:16:45.912-04:002016-09-01T16:16:45.912-04:00This very back and forth including the accurate (a...This very back and forth including the accurate (albeit unpopular) point of John Nolan about the principle invoked for the DoI and then repudiated in the call to enforce the Union points to my many posts wherein I predict open and bloody persecution of Catholics "qua" Catholics in the United States of America by fellow Americans both representing the official government ideology (anti-Christian secular hedonism) and by vigilante paramilitaries either in concert with the government or on their own.<br /><br />I say this because human nature does not change and world history is full of tyranny of the many by the ruthless few. The vast majority of civilian deaths the world over in the past 200 years have been piled up by the repression of civilians by their own governments. Vastly more people have been killed in the past 100 years at the hands of their OWN governments (run as oligarchies wherein the ruling class both despised and feared those out of power).<br /><br />Mexico OUTLAWED the Catholic Church, nationalized all churches, schools, hospitals etc. and began an aggressive drive to secularization, atheism, sex-education etc. in the 1920s despite the country being nominally 80% Catholic. <br /><br />Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, and other lands all saw similar general social and political repudiation of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular by former Catholics becoming secular hedonists. These folk are desperate for 'heaven on earth' which they see as something only their cultural and political forces can accomplish and which only Catholics (qua faithful, sincere, 'true believers) can stymie. Thus over and over across the centuries and cultures, open bloodshed has always been justified in the name of this ungodly kingdom 'to come' based on the will of mere mortals.<br /><br />The way the 'institutional' church as frittered away it's leadership - akin to how the Church in England threw in with Henry VIII - follows the same basic template of general apostasy from the top down. If we're anything like our English ancestors, the amount of ferocity and petty-vindictiveness of our Secular anti-Catholics will be off the charts.<br /><br />You think the LGBTQ will stop? There IS NO internal 'braking' system in that ideology. There IS NO internal control for "this far and no farther". Ditto with the "deep ecologists" and the new age/nebulous spirituality/wiccans/Satanists.... there's no internal dogma which would forbid them from participation in pogroms and purges....just as there's no internal dogma on the Left which would hold any aspect of life sacred or out of bounds for government regulation. <br /><br />Human culture is based on worship and worship is ALWAYS totalizing. It's a fact of human nature that any culture will seek to expand forever until outside forces stop and roll it back either by subversion or frontal assault. <br /><br />The storm is coming. We can join the Leviathan, go underground, or stand up and see what this beast is made of and what WE are made of. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11067629533943715952016-09-01T15:21:34.306-04:002016-09-01T15:21:34.306-04:00There is absolutely no way to read the Declaration...There is absolutely no way to read the Declaration of Independence objectively without coming to the conclusion that it is, in part, nonsense. <br /><br />For example,<br /><br /><i>He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.</i><br /><br />The last monarch to refuse royal assent to a law passed by Parliament was Anne, who ruled 80 years before George III.<br /><br />Going further, one finds this: <br /><br /><i>For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies</i><br /><br />This is in reference to the Quebec Act, which allowed, amongst other things, the Quebecois to keep their religion and system of government. <br /><br />And, my favourite:<br /><br /><i>He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.</i><br /><br />But hey, the Americans turned right around in the first third of the 19th century and engineered a war with Mexico in order to reach the Pacific Ocean and gain (amongst others) the prizes of Texas and Alta California. I do, however, find it amusing that a series of events leading to the Mexican-American War was started by, of all things, illegal immigration of Anglos to Mexican Texas, and a refusal by the Anglo-Texans to respect the laws of Mexico (including learning Spanish). There's a delicious irony given America's present immigrant situation.Flavius Hesychiusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30069597022970794912016-09-01T14:09:20.330-04:002016-09-01T14:09:20.330-04:00Anon, You misportray criticism of the American Rev...Anon, You misportray criticism of the American Revolution. The Colonists were not anti-British but determined to express a level of self determination the British did not like but could not suppress. If the George of the Eastern Atlantic had been prepared, or capable, of experimenting with commonwealth government the George of the West might have endorsed it. The same can be said the the American Civil War. The Union was far more important to the government than the civil rights of negros, but the causes were handy allies in what was actually an internal trade war between the states with similar economic systems. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54865983453153007302016-09-01T14:02:25.099-04:002016-09-01T14:02:25.099-04:00Anonymous,
I made no reference to your revered &#...Anonymous,<br /><br />I made no reference to your revered 'Founding Fathers'. I did, however, suggest that the rhetoric of the so-called 'Patriots' was overblown and exaggerated, and serious historians on both sides of the Atlantic agree on this.<br /><br />I don't buy into historical myth, whomsoever it concerns. Leopold II's record in the Congo is deplorable, as is England's record in Ireland, as is the record of the US with regard to the indigenous peoples of north America.<br /><br />It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Roman Rite, outlawed by the Tudors who were long regarded as the 'Founding Fathers' of the modern English state. <br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42158347108893957552016-09-01T11:13:01.018-04:002016-09-01T11:13:01.018-04:00Dialogue,
Indeed, but I have found that Americans...Dialogue,<br /><br />Indeed, but I have found that Americans (some of them reasonably educated) like to see themselves historically as victims of colonialism, whereas they were in fact the main beneficiaries of it. <br /><br />Imperialism does not in itself imply colonialism in that it is not necessarily concerned with settlement. The Roman Empire in the West was an astonishingly successful enterprise in terms of a common language, common law, common currency and (to the benefit of the Catholic Church) a common religion.<br /><br />The imperialism of Napoleon and Hitler was defeated because England was not prepared to tolerate it. And the neo-imperialism of the European Union is going the same way and for the same reason. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87910801068903906702016-09-01T08:55:03.061-04:002016-09-01T08:55:03.061-04:00I'm sorry, Mr. Nolan, but your judgment on the...I'm sorry, Mr. Nolan, but your judgment on the Founding Fathers of our country rings hollow. Didn't you say something recently about learning humility? Yes, you said, "Learn some humility. It's always unedifying when great men are mocked by pygmies." So, while you cast aspersions on Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Roger Sherman, and Robert Livingston and accuse them of using "overblown rhetoric," you condemn yourself by your own words.<br /><br />Enjoy your pygmy petard party! <br /><br />The "Catholic" Leopold who attended the Roman Rite was not sanctified by doing so, the claim that many make here in defense of the EF. He murdered millions in the Belgian Congo. That's not "ignorance of European history," it is a fact.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17619115949177344812016-09-01T07:37:18.579-04:002016-09-01T07:37:18.579-04:00John Nolan,
There is a distinction sometimes made...John Nolan,<br /><br />There is a distinction sometimes made between imperialism and colonialism, with the latter at least implicitly aimed at an evolution towards independence or some kind of confederation of equals. Apart from the settler colonies, there will always be charges of oppression against the former colonizers, but there was also an evident stability of improvement that was often not sustained after independence. But we can thank the former colonial powers for introducing around the globe: free trade, mass education in international languages, impartial justice, representative democracy, and--although colonials for a short time participated in this African and Arabic practice--the abolition of the slavery. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15615689045102728692016-09-01T06:27:43.963-04:002016-09-01T06:27:43.963-04:00Sorry, Anonymous. Quoting the overblown rhetoric o...Sorry, Anonymous. Quoting the overblown rhetoric of the winning side in the first American Civil War (1776-1783) does not disguise the fact that colonization is usually the settlement of inhabited territories by non-indigenous peoples, usually to the detriment of the latter. One of the grievances of the rebels was the attempt by the British government to prevent further expansion into Indian territory.<br /><br />Free from that restraint, the United States went on to colonize an entire continent, although they preferred to call it 'manifest destiny'. They also fought another and far bloodier Civil War (1861-1865) to underscore the point that secession from London was one thing, but the same principles did not apply when it came to secession from Washington.<br /><br />Before displaying your ignorance of European history, take some time to study your own. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58895674125543879062016-08-31T22:45:30.517-04:002016-08-31T22:45:30.517-04:00Anonymous at 8:28 AM
From Stalin to Mao to Hitler...Anonymous at 8:28 AM<br /><br />From Stalin to Mao to Hitler to Pol Pot to Idi Amin, there is no comparison to how many more were oppressed and killed by those butchers and tyrants versus how many were oppressed and killed by Catholics in the whole history of the Church. Mind you, what Mssr Stalin and the rest "accomplished" was just in one century. Atheism did far more evil than those Catholics, many in name only, could even conceive of doing. And need we bring up how many were oppressed, subjugated and murdered by the followers of Mohammed? At least the Catholics brought with them the attendant benefits of the Faith and the Sacraments and the temporal developments which contributed greatly to the advance of civilization.Faithful Catholicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54964324186300837182016-08-31T18:58:32.458-04:002016-08-31T18:58:32.458-04:00I don't know too many "Moslem" invad...I don't know too many "Moslem" invaders who attended Mass - in any form. <br /><br />And since when was Genghis Kahn a church-going Catholic?<br /><br />The idea that the atrocious history of European colonialism cannot be criticized because America was once a collection of colonies is silly.<br /><br />Colonies such as ours threw off the yoke of our imperial despots for good reason.<br /><br />Among them: <br /><br />He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.<br /><br />He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. <br /><br />For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury<br /><br />For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.<br /><br />He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30973385595547744632016-08-31T18:22:52.266-04:002016-08-31T18:22:52.266-04:00TJM
No need to refute idiotic arguments which col...TJM<br /><br />No need to refute idiotic arguments which collapse under the weight of their own absurdity.<br /><br />Those that attended the Mass of 1962 presumably also included the Moslem invaders and conquerors, Genghis Kahn and his Mongol hordes, not to mention those English protestants who colonized north America.<br /><br />By the way, Americans who criticize colonialism should stop and consider where they would be without it! John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57586438329568447572016-08-31T17:41:57.426-04:002016-08-31T17:41:57.426-04:00"Not every war is for greed or dominance, man..."Not every war is for greed or dominance, many are defensive in nature."<br /><br />Well, in Europe, who do you think made the OFFENSIVE attack in the first place? Long before Hitler and Stalin (Mao wasn't European) it was Catholics who attended Mass celebrated in the "only" form, what we now know as the EF.<br /><br />"Colonization raised the living standards and life expectancy of millions in large portions of the world."<br /><br />Tell that to the millions who died in the Belgian Congo under the dictatorship of the "Catholic" Leopold II.<br /><br />"Yes, some clerics did that but that was over 500 years ago."<br /><br />"Some Catholics" included popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, and other clerics. ALL of them attended the EF over 500 years ago. <br /><br />The form of the Mass preferred by you did not prevent the atrocities. How, now, is it going to prevent sinful behavior more effectively than the OF?<br /><br />The EF is not some magical panacea. It has a proven track record.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-108377332157154992016-08-31T17:07:10.521-04:002016-08-31T17:07:10.521-04:00Anonymous,
If all the persons you mention attende...Anonymous,<br /><br />If all the persons you mention attended Mass in the same "form", then what is the point of counting them? Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9683650699187031772016-08-31T15:49:53.879-04:002016-08-31T15:49:53.879-04:00Anonymous,
Your "history" has nothing t...Anonymous,<br /><br />Your "history" has nothing to do with the sanctity or efficacy of the EF. <br /><br />But here goes with your idiotic assertions:<br /><br /><br /> Start your data search with all those who attended the Extraordinary Form (then the Only Form) of the Mass who 1) started virtually every war for greed and dominance in Europe for 1000 years; <br /> <br />Not every war is for greed or dominance, many are defensive in nature. The most destructive and costly in terms of human life have been caused by totalitarian and atheistic left-wing regimes like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.<br /><br /><br />2) colonized and oppressed large portions of the world in order to strip them of their natural resources, killing millions in the process;<br /><br />Colonization raised the living standards and life expectancy of millions in large portions of the world. The most oppressed are oppressed by their own kind such as Big Daddy Amin.<br /><br /><br /> 3) who whored and nepotized and simonized the Holy See into a cesspool of sin for hundreds of years, opening the door for the Protestant Reformation; etc...<br /><br />Yes, some clerics did that but that was over 500 years ago. And Henry VIII whored and nepotized himself into Anglicanism<br /><br />Do you get up in the morning and take stupid pills?TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55058784544029276632016-08-31T14:23:52.911-04:002016-08-31T14:23:52.911-04:00TJM - Noting history makes me "unhinged."...TJM - Noting history makes me "unhinged." Hmmm....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14193601162659493012016-08-31T11:17:27.438-04:002016-08-31T11:17:27.438-04:00I'm fairly certain number 3 is still true 50 y...I'm fairly certain number 3 is still true 50 years after the OF came about lol...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57814203162770707672016-08-31T10:03:16.524-04:002016-08-31T10:03:16.524-04:00Anonymous at 8:28
You sound unhinged. Perhaps Oba...Anonymous at 8:28<br /><br />You sound unhinged. Perhaps ObamaCare covers mental illness. Seek help.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19557985814694348802016-08-31T08:28:12.329-04:002016-08-31T08:28:12.329-04:00Yes, tell us about those who attend the EF who exh...Yes, tell us about those who attend the EF who exhibit long-term fidelity.<br /><br />Start your data search with all those who attended the Extraordinary Form (then the Only Form) of the Mass who 1) started virtually every war for greed and dominance in Europe for 1000 years; 2) colonized and oppressed large portions of the world in order to strip them of their natural resources, killing millions in the process; 3) who whored and nepotized and simonized the Holy See into a cesspool of sin for hundreds of years, opening the door for the Protestant Reformation; etc...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77164644023277905662016-08-31T07:25:26.574-04:002016-08-31T07:25:26.574-04:00CPA,
Great question! Once we determine which for...CPA,<br /><br />Great question! Once we determine which form of Mass is most effective at promoting long-term fidelity to the Church, we can drop the losing form and just have the winning form. Brilliant! Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61273266953782706102016-08-30T17:37:55.216-04:002016-08-30T17:37:55.216-04:00Jusad, while you're gathering stats, find out ...Jusad, while you're gathering stats, find out how many teens who get hauled into Latin Masses by their parents continue on when they reach college and beyond?CPAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55878901500930345842016-08-30T15:55:31.628-04:002016-08-30T15:55:31.628-04:00Flav, you can flee state income tax or sales taxes...Flav, you can flee state income tax or sales taxes by moving to another state or city. If you want to avoid US Federal taxes you have to renounce citizenship and there are still some things to watch for. It is not easy to escape, for sure. <br /><br />Back to the thread: I think it would be interesting for FrAJM to see if any of his young people would be interested in learning the parts of the EF and study that versus the LIFETEEN! (R) Mass. Certainly an opportunity for growth in understanding of their Church. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.com