For example, I can remember in pre-Vatican II times that at Mass after Holy Communion, people would return to their pew, kneel down and bury their head and face on the pew in front of them over their hands or arms. I thought as a child that they were upset about something, very sad or even crying. I didn't know.
Of course, this isn't prescribed in the EF Mass then or now.
But people do devotional things at both the OF and EF Mass now not prescribed by the Mass itself. In the old days the priest didn't know what was going on behind him and today priests don't know in the EF Mass. And this is a good thing as I don't think priests should micro manage what the laity do (within reason) during the Mass as it concerns their postures.
In the EF Mass which has a considerable amount of more kneeling, there is the butt kneel where the person, although still kneeling on the kneeler, leans their butt back on the pew. Should priests complain about it? No! No! No!
And thus I learned yesterday, that at our very first EF High Mass at a normally scheduled Ordinary Mass time of 12:10 PM two Sundays ago that many in the congregation, not all certainly, just a minority, held hands at the Pater Noster during and EF Mass! What a hoot!
Discuss!
17 comments:
So far, this kind of thing has been self-correcting at my parish (FSSP). Every few weeks, you'll see someone - invariably a new face - praying the Pater Noster in the Orans posture. It generally stops of its own accord within the month.
With that being said, I don't consider it "micro-managing" for a priest to occasionally bring up the matter of acceptable and/or traditional behavior during Mass. The few times our priest has done so, the response was overwhelmingly positive, both from old-timers and newer parishioners. In one talk - delivered during an adult catechesis - he explained the traditions behind the various forms of genuflection and folding of hands (one knee, two knees, bowing with the head, bowing from the waist, hands folded with thumbs crossed right over left, etc.) He made no demands or accusations, and yet decorum at Mass improved dramatically in a very short time.
You ought to get a rear-view mirror for the altar, as they might start dancing next...
You're lucky really, as they sound like nice friendly folk compared to the weirdos and sociopaths that make up most EF congregations ;¬)
Enthusiasts, hippies, protestants. And, if you think the EF is bad, you ought to see the OF. Some places it looks like Woodstock. Oh well, who are we to judge? The Church should not be a museum. We don't need ideology. Must be open to change. Love mother earth. Drive electric cars.
Flower,
The rear view mirror is my proposal for overcoming everyone's fear of ad orientem.
Father, is this hand-holding normally done during the OF of the Mass that you normally say ad orientam at midday? Perhaps you had an influx of charismatics in to the Mass.
We do have a couple of charismatics who come to the EF Mass and they adopt the orans position during Mass. Also one sometimes kneels on the floor after communion with his arms raised to heaven in supplication. I haven't seen this at any other EF Mass I've attended except in our diocese where we do have a lot of charismatics. This also happens in the Ordinary Form of the Mass with large numbers adopting the orans position during Mass, some extend their arms very high and it is a little off putting at times but we live with it as a fad that will no doubt pass.
Flower of Lucca, doesn't sound particularly nice so maybe he/she is one of the very weirdo/sociopath types that he or she is complaining about. It takes one to know one they say ...
Jan
I'd be concerned if they were singing the Pater Noster along with the priest... If that was taking place, then you have a duty to instruct them about how to properly participate in the Mass.
I simply must weigh in regarding the "butt kneel" (never heard that phrase before!). In the church I grew up in, the pews and kneelers, both of ancient vintace, were constructed in such a way that the "butt kneel" was the only way to kneel. (If you're interested, pew back of low height + pew back with a slight incline backward + very narrow space between pews = "butt kneel." Thus that's how I grew up doing it. Hard to break a habit after so many years. :-)
So, anonymous @ 8:13, go for it. Make the change...life is tough, but you only go around once.
Ah, Clyde Catholic, you fall into the typical American notion that change always equals progress. :-)
There are no rubrics for lay postures, which are a matter of local custom. For most of the Church's history there were no pews; people would normally stand or kneel or if infirm would sit at the side, hence the saying 'the weakest go to the wall'.
Private devotions are normally made kneeling. At Low Mass the congregation would have been making their private devotions, hence the Low Mass habit of kneeling for most of the time. At High Mass which actually enjoins the assembly to participate in the sung responses and to sing the chant Ordinary, it is preferable that the people stand and kneel in accordance with the sanctuary party, which means standing after the elevation of the Chalice and remaining standing until after the Agnus Dei.
The Novus Ordo postures for the laity are actually more correct liturgically but the faithful should never be dragooned. If a bishop told me to stand until everyone had received Communion (which I understand has happened in the US) he would have had a two-fingered salute from me as I went to a side altar to make my thanksgiving.
Anonymous, LOL!
It seems to me that after SP, Ecclesia dei allowed the option of the Pater Noster to be chanted in its entirety by the congregation at a High Mass. I only vaguely remember that, so I can't be sure if I was dreaming or just wishful thinking. Does anyone know for sure?????
Yes, you're right: the following link has the extract from Ecclesia dei (1997):
http://www.the-latinmass.com/id265.html
The main problem with the people singing the Our Father is simply confusion. Even just speaking the prayer, much less singing it, results in an a long drone. Our parish does manage the "sed libera nos a malo" in unison for High Mass. The prayers after Mass sound jumbled and we do those constantly!
Further clarification on the state of the 1962 Missal:
"Leo Darroch, Executive President – International Federation Una
Voce. 2 June 2008. ...
If it is accepted that all the concessions and privileges that were granted under QAA and EDA have been superseded by the new law, what, then, is the current position? Quite clearly we start with a clean slate. From 14th September 2007 we start once again with the Missal of 1962, untouched and without modification or adaptation. In his Letter to the Bishops, Pope Benedict recognises that some change will take place but he is very specific; and he speaks in the future tense only, not in the past. He says:
“new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal. The ‘Ecclesia Dei’ Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard.”
In effect, no changes can be made to the Missal of 1962 until the Ecclesia Dei Commission implements the will of the Holy Father and consults with the “various bodies” devoted to the usus antiquior. "
The rubrics for the 1962 missal state that the priest chants the Pater Noster and the server/congregation respond.
http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/rubrics/
Therefore the modifications sent to you by Flower of Lucca are superseded by Summorum Pontificum.
Jan
It's not that straightforward, Jan: Leo Darroch is putting forward his own opinions and recommendations here, rather than presenting concrete facts on the issue. There won't be any concrete facts till the Vatican issues the long-awaited clarifications which Darroch mentions.
Darroch's position is that any modification to the prescriptions in the 1962 missal undermines its integrity, drawing it closer to the OF mass. But elsewhere in the speech he says he's open to the "organic development" of the EF mass, which is surely what Fr.McDonald's modification is.
Of course we are all stating opinion here. But nowhere in SP or any subsequent document has 1958's allowance been abrogated and I doubt seriously that Pope Benedict would abrogate the work of Ecclesia Dei up until SP because of all their hard work in getting bishops around the world to allow the 1962 missal in select ways.
I just don't see where anyone, apart from opinion, can point to a clear abrogation of the 1997 Ecclesia Dei document. It is like those on the left who insist that Paul VI abrogated the 1962 missal altogether. It wasn't true as Pope Benedict made abundantly clear in SP!
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