Mandate this or that:
There is a liturgical mess in India in an eastern rite that fell victim to the Latinization of their liturgy because of what someone said Vatican II taught (which it didn’t, of course).
On top of that, this eastern rite Church is historically a synodal Church as the Eastern Rite and the Orthodox Churches understand synodality, which apparently is a bit different than Pope Francis’ vision.
But somehow Vatican II in this Indian Eastern Rite Church has created the same mess it as cause in the Latin Rite. But again, that’s not right, as the mess is caused by the spirit of Vatican II and not Vatican II itself. It is caused by ideologues who weaponized Vatican II.
The problem in the Indian Eastern Rite is that after Vatican II they started to celebrate their form of the Mass facing the congregation for the entirety of the Mass.
Evidently, not all of the eastern rite parishes did so; some maintained the ad orientem posture traditional to this rite and every rite in the Eastern Rite and in the Latin Rite until after Vatican II.
So a compromise was established in an authoritarian way. They wanted to implement a uniform way of celebrating the Eastern Rite Liturgy in India. And it was mandated that the Introductory and Concluding Rites of their Divine Liturgy would be celebrated facing the congregation and the Liturgy of the Eucharist would be ad orientem.
Guess who rioted over this? Those who did not want a uniform way of celebrating the Liturgy and demanded that it be celebrated facing the people. And yes they rioted and continue to riot.
Why not have the flexibility of Pope Benedict XVI when it comes to the Mass? Why not say it is completely proper to celebrate the Mass ad orientem and enshrine that in canon law but with a codicil that if the Mass is celebrated facing the people, the altar must be decorated with the traditional so-called “Benedictine altar arrangement” meaning that the crucifix is placed dead center on the altar facing the priest. The altar arrangement should be codified in liturgical law.
John Allen at Crux has an article on this which you can read HERE. But below is an excerpt:
The dispute is over liturgy. In 2021, the Syro-Malabar Synod, made up of the church’s bishops led by Cardinal George Alencherry, decided to standardize celebration of the Mass, including liturgical posture. Basically speaking, they decided the priest should face the people during the Liturgy of the Word, the altar during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and the people again for the closing rites.
A large share of the clergy and laity in Ernakulam-Angamaly balked at those changes, insisting that they’d been celebrating facing the people for decades and saw no reason to change. Moreover, they argued, the orientation versus populum is more in keeping with the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
This dispute hasn’t just been carried out in learned theological journals, but in the streets and even, occasionally, in angry disruptions to celebrations inside churches.
A Vatican effort to lower the temperature by appointing a special Apostolic Administrator for the Archdiocese of Ernakulam-Angamaly has, in most respects, apparently backfired. When Archbishop Andrews Thazhath recently ordered the vicar at St. Mary’s deposed over his refusal to implement the uniform Mass, protestors gathered outside to burn his decree, accusing Thazhath of being “drunk with power,” and refusing to allow a different cleric to take charge.
Things became so heated that in the run-up to Christmas celebrations last year, Thazhath actually requested police protection, saying he feared for his life. After rival factions clashed inside the basilica, the Christmas midnight Mass had to be cancelled.
25 comments:
"Why not say it is completely proper to celebrate the Mass ad orientem and enshrine that in canon law but with a codicil that if the Mass is celebrated facing the people, the altar must be decorated with the traditional so-called “Benedictine altar arrangement” meaning that the crucifix is placed dead center on the altar facing the priest."
Because canon law doesn't deal with trivial matters. That's why.
Maybe if canon law did, there wouldn’t be riots in churches.
To a guy who votes for Abortion as Healthcare, of course these are "trivial" matters. He really knows proportionality!
Here is what Father Hunwicke has to say about the Prevaricator in Chief in Rome on matters liturgical:
"PF claimed that S Pius was "establishing for the whole Latin Church a single Missale Romanum. For four centuries this Missale Romanum, promulgated by S Pius V, was thus the principal expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite ...".
Nothing could be further from the truth.
The merits of the Missal of S Pius V did in fact secure for it a dominance in those "four centuries". But this was not what S Pius either intended or expressed in his legislation. We must not read history with hindsight. Careless folk often write that S Pius "permitted" the survival of rites older than 200 years.
This is erroneous. Quo primum, dealing with the rites of more than 200 years, stated that the pope was by no means abolishing them (NEQUAQUAM AUFERIMUS); on the contrary, he ordered them to be continued (unless a bishop with the unanimous consent of the Chapter decided otherwise).
S Pius ordered the preservation of Rites with a history of more than 200 years.
PF is ordering the extinction of a Rite more than 1500 years old.
To assert the identity of these two policies is the language of 1984; it is such a massive suggestio falsi that I rather suspect it tips over into the category of a great big lie."
TJM - You are a liar. You know it and so does everyone else who reads this blog.
Fr. AJM - This isn't THE Eastern Rite in India, it is one of them. And then, I gather this one has always had a more liberal/Latinization bent.
General: Perceived "fruit" of the Council gone wild. This is not what the Council called for regarding the Eastern Churches. This poor Council really takes a beating because everyone thinks their interpretation is correct.
Fr. MJK - I agree and I don't. The matter is not "trivial" in the least. At the same time, it isn't a legal matter either. Perhaps a better way of stating this is the missal needs to be revised, if not rewritten.
TJM - I like you, I really do. I CAN see myself having a beer with you. However, one sticking point is the constant accusations directed to Fr. MJK. His voting record is none of my business, I really don't care to be frank, he has spoken more than amply regarding how the USCCB has directed Catholics to consider their voting and I think it's time to let go of this.
I really wish Frs. AJM and MJK would co-author a posting on this, and how voting is to be considered relative to the USCCB, so we can put this s#!t to bed already!
One of the good things that did come about from post Vatican II generally speaking was the removal of the Latinisations from the Eastern Liturgies.
ByzRus, you'd be right in saying that Syro Malabars have had a lot of Latinisations in their liturgy and it is one of the Rites in india along with the Syro Malankara.
Generally speaking in terms of Liturgical praxis within the Eastern context, Liturgy is a gift, something that is received, it's not something where our preferences come into thought or play. Versus populum is not something that is generally done in the Eastern context and it is not within our tradition generally speaking. (Even the St James' Liturgy should be celebrated Ad Orientem)...So in this instance I don't think it can be agreeable to have both postures present.
For what it's worth most of the Latinisations were done not so much because those Eastern churches in communion with Rome agreed with them, but rather because they felt the need to do so for without them, they wouldn't be considered Catholic, or at worst be treated as 2nd Class citizens a la the rather infmaous Abp Ireland and St Alexis Toth affair. Which, while things are somewhat better in the present, there is still a 2nd classness often for some Eastern Catholics (the ones that aren't Roman Refugees)
I can only say to those priests that are doing the St Thomas Liturgy in a tradition that isn't familiar to the Church as a whole to not do that. But it goes to show how much of an influence Roman praxis has sometimes....
There is something that is much deeper that is a problem here, and it will need to be addressed before a solution can be come to...but I don't want to spend too much time here tonight.
Byz, the location or a crucifix "dead center" on an altar or elsewhere is trivial. Also trivial is how much beeswax is used in altar candles, the location of microphones, the presence or absence of embroidered crosses on altar linens, the number of buttons on a cassock, or the location in which the tabernacle key is kept.
Fr. MJK,
Agree, those considerations are trivial.
The direction of liturgical worship is not.
Versus populem is not our tradition in the east.
Arguably, it is not your tradition either.
Fr K Orwell, you are a liar, and everyone here knows it. You can't be a Catholic and vote for the premeditated death of the unborn and demand we fund it. You cannot parse your vote and there is no proportionate reason.
ByzRus,
I like you too and enjoy your comments. That guy has continuously attacked other commentators and their motives, when he could not possibly know them. John Nolan has called him out, Jerome Merwick has called him out, and many others who no longer post. Gene famously stated "Kavanaugh lies all the time." He has called the president who appointed Justices that tossed Roe v Wade on the ashbin of history as "evil" but fails to apply that adjective to either Clinton, Biden or Obama, whom from a Catholic perspective, a much better case can be made that they are the truly evil ones.
For your sake, I will try to hold my tongue, but I don't expect that he will. He can't even compliment or show common courtesy to our genial host.
ByzRus said..."Versus populem is not our tradition in the east. Arguably, it is not your tradition either."
ByzRus, years ago I had encountered the following valuable information:
In 1996 A.D., the Congregation for the Eastern Churches released the following:
-- Prayer facing the east
"Ever since ancient times, it has been customary in the prayer of the Eastern Churches to prostrate oneself to the ground, turning toward the east; the buildings themselves were constructed such that the altar would face the east.
"Saint John of Damascus explains the meaning of this tradition: "It is not for simplicity nor by chance that we pray turned toward the regions of the east (...). Since God is intelligible light, and in the Scripture, Christ is called the Sun of justice and the East, it is necessary to dedicate the east to him in order to render him worship. The Scripture says: 'Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and he placed there the man whom he had formed'.
"Even the tent of Moses had its curtain veil and propitiatory facing the east. And the tribe of Judah, in as much as it was the most notable, encamped on the east side. In the temple of Solomon, the Lord's gate was facing the east.
"Finally, the Lord placed on the cross looked toward the west, and so we prostrate ourselves in his direction, facing him.
"When he ascended to heaven, he was raised toward the east, and thus his disciples adored him, and thus he will return, in the same way as they saw him go to heaven, as the Lord himself said: 'For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be' (Mt. 24:27).
"Waiting for him, we prostrate ourselves toward the east. It is an unwritten tradition, deriving from the Apostles."
"This rich and fascinating interpretation also explains the reason for which the celebrant who presides in the liturgical celebration prays facing the east, just as the people who participate.
"It is not a question, as is often claimed, of presiding the celebration with the back turned to the people, but rather of guiding the people in pilgrimage toward the Kingdom, invoked in prayer until the return of the Lord.
"Such practice, threatened in numerous Eastern Catholic Churches by a new and recent Latin influence, is thus of profound value and should be safeguarded as truly coherent with the Eastern liturgical spirituality."
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I believe that it's a shame that the Latin Church has all but disregarded Her adherence to prayer facing the east.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
Nicely done.
Thank you.
TJM,
Thanks.
The Church provides some latitude as you cited, I don't choose to get involved with it. That said, it's there for those who choose to avail themselves.
The shame of it is, the democratic party embodied DEI before that became part of the popular lexicon. Unfortunately, extremes have, in part, moved the party away from what was intended to do, improve the lives of the working class.
Gene. Haven't heard that name in eons. Hope he's doing well wherever he is.
TJM, you are such a fan of Orwell, you should hear this quote about your repeated deceit: “We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell, Facing Unpleasant Facts: Narrative Essays
With you I am happy to be the revolutionary you so desperately need, but, tragically, will never hear.
Fr K Orwell,
People here have figured you out: an angry, ungracious man who must play with the cool kids to bolster his image. It takes zero intellectual heft to follow the herd like you have. I hope you enjoy your misery. Out of respect for ByzRus, this is the last time I will address a false priest.
Thank you, TJM.
Fr. MJK,
We are so close to a peace accord. Not sure poking the tiger is productive.
I respect you, I truly do, however, there is a gotcha component to engagements with others that, honestly, I'm not used to. I don't know, when hanging with the guys, the one that always has to have that little dig, always seems displeased, usually starts to be left out of things.
If you don't need this discussion group, that's fine as it's your decision. If you do, then let's keep the family together.
ByzRus,
Most welcome. You are a fine gentlemen. I am happy for you that you belong to a Rite that respects its past and its people. Unfortunately at the current time Latin Rite Catholics do not have this luxury.
ByzRus said..."We are so close to a peace accord."
If peace is obtainable among the factions who post to Father's blog — tremendous disagreements and major league insults have flown around here for years — then our Peace Committee needs to travel immediately to the Middle East.
Solving that region's problems should prove easy to our Peace Committee. Then, it is on to Hollywood to settle the strikes and discord there.
When that's done, I will ask our Peace Committee to resolve a three-week long dispute that I have had with my next door neighbors, in regard to their cat — Miss Precious.
Miss Precious, aka Mr. Whiskers, is actually a male. But in keeping with the times, Mr. Whiskers is uncertain as to his gender.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Byz - Not a single one of us "needs" this discussion group.
As for keeping the family together, every family has that crazy uncle or aunt, the one who says outrageous things at inconvenient moments or who makes wildly unsupportable claims or accusations. When people here make outrageous or unsupportable claims, they ought to expect that people will respond. They's still "family," but...
In our family of of the best "Crazy Aunt" stories centered on Miss Mary McCarthy, our father's aunt, who as born in 1876. She died in 1972. At my eldest nephew's baptism we were gathered in the very small baptistery at our home parish. At one point, Aunt Mary, who was also deaf as a stone, decided to say in her old deaf person's too loud whisper, "His Ma's a Jew, you know!" referring to my brother-in-law's mother who was, in fact, Jewish.
It's good to have the crazies around sometimes...
TJM,
Thank you for the generous reply.
Yes, the Byzantine Ruthenian Church has provided a journey I couldn't have anticipated. I'm where I need to be.
MT,
Your post made me laugh. Thank you!
N.Korea is next!
Fr. MJK,
The Thanksgiving table would be boring if not for the personalities that surround it.
True, none of us need this blog, but perhaps we do. Many of us have been here long enough it makes one wonder.
Some crazy uncles wear Roman Collars
ByzRus said..."MT, Your post made me laugh. Thank you! N.Korea is next!"
I'm sure that I my comments have made you, and everybody here, laugh many times...when that was not my intention.
:-)
But it is good that we enjoy peace amongst us. I need to improve greatly as a peacemaker, here and elsewhere.
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
MT,
Well said. Myself likewise!
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