Father Neil Xavier O’Donoghue has an interesting opinion piece at Praytell which you can read HERE. He speaks of other Rites in the Latin/Western Rite that are allowed to remain, but no one attends. He speaks of two specifically, the Braga Rite in Portugal and another rite in Toledo, Spain.
This is a portion of what he writes at the end of his hit piece:
This reminded me of a visit to Toledo a few years ago. There there exists a true liturgical rite, that is venerable and has a fully developed Missal renewed after the Council. Yet when I attended the Mozarabic Chapel in the Cathedral of Toledo, I was disappointed to see that apart from a few priests who served as the Cathedral Canons (whose job it is to attend and keep the rite “alive”), the handful of people attending the Mass celebrated in the Mozarabic Rite was made up exclusively of American liturgical tourists and that no local person was in attendance.
One part of me laments the lack of historical continuity and the loss of ancient liturgical uses and rites. Yet another rejoices in this validation of the universal Roman Rite. People have voted with their feet and have found the current Missal to be more life-giving than the various other possibilities. Could this be a manifestation of the sensus fidelium confirming what Pope Francis’ affirmation in Traditionis Custodes:
The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.
While he laments that these rites are neglected by clergy and laity, he sees that neglect as the Sensus Fidelium that the older rites are rejected and thus supports the absurd assertion of TC that the current reformed liturgy of Paul VI is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite. It is to laugh of course!
But using Father O’Donohue’s logic, he condemns the Mass of Paul VI in the same way, but he does so unwittingly!
In many places in Europe today, if 5% of Catholics attend the Mass of Paul VI, that is considered a success! In this country, the USA, many places in the northeast are seeing about 5% of people attending the Mass of Paul VI.
In the American south, attendance is a bit higher, with upwards to 20% of Catholics attending the Mass of Paul VI on Sundays.
Compare that to Mass attendance in the USA around 1965 or so, in this country about 90% of Catholics were attending the normal Sunday Mass at that time, what is now called the TLM! I have no idea how high it was in Europe; I suspect not as high as the USA, but certainly more than 5% of the Catholics there.
Thus according to Fr. O”Donohue, the sensus fidelium has spoken and the Mass of Paul VI should not be the unique expression of the Roman Rite, but something else more akin to the TLM!
20 comments:
In addition to Fr. Mac's astute observation about people voting with their feet against the Mass of Paul VIth; I have another observation or two to add.
1. How many of the "local people" know the Mozarabic Rite is being celebrated? Is it during the weekday when folks are at work? Is it advertised? Even where the TLM is allowed to be celebrated, it cannot be advertised or published as being available. So it is highly doubtful that people have "voted with their feet".
2. Perhaps Fr. Xavier knows a few folks who tell him they luv the Novus Ordo; great. But the vast majority of folks who show up do so because they have no other option. Since the the numbers of Catholics who don't bother with Mass at all is growing, they are voting with their feet against the Mass of Paul VIth.
3. The people who have the opportunity vote with their feet to attend the TLM; using the author's logic it too must be a valid expression of the Roman Rite.
The argument presented in the article is childish reasoning.
1. The Hispano-Mozarabic Rite is celebrated every Sunday and Holy Day at the Toledo Cathedral at 09:45. It is part of their regular schedule and advertised as such. (I was there on a Sunday as part of a Rick Steves tour of Spain and arrived about 30 minutes after the liturgy had ended. I was, alas, unaware that the opportunity was there.)
2. Those not attending mass at all are assumed to be staying away in large part because they have no "luv" for the mass of Paul VI. I've seen precious little evidence that this assumption is based on anything other than conjecture.
3. The opportunity for the TLM does not draw "foot-voting Catholics" much. While the opportunity exists in the city where I serve as pastor, our numbers remain strong.
>Progressives and modernists: "Follow the sensus fidelium! The voice of the people is the voice of God!"
>Fr. AJM checks post-1970 Church attendance stats
>Progressives and modernists: "Noooo not like that!"
People ARE voting with their feet, no doubt....but voting "no answers HERE, only phonies and functionaries", and not over whatever rite, which problem exists in BOTH rites...
but will admit folk more likely to find those answers (typically with no aid at all) in a church where God is worshipped in a fitting manner in a fitting church, which is NOT most modern rite churches, nor any church where most are there for minimal time strictly out of obligation, such as golf masses.
FRAJM, Fr. Neil sets up the straw man that because the two rites he attended in Spain and Portugal had very few faithful attending, that this means the Sensus Fideliium is that the Mass of Paul VI is the unique expression of the Roman Rite. What he and you fail to recognize, that even with the TLM or other rites of the Church, and the Mass of Paul VI getting most of those who do go to Mass, only 5% of Catholics are attending Mass in many parts of the world and in some parts it is less than 5%. The south has more attending, maybe 20%. You state that in your city, your numbers are the same, although, you and I know that in your parish that once had 1,200 registered households, you now have about 400.
The sensus fiidlium, according to Fr. Neil is that because such a low percentage of Catholics attend Mass, that the Mass of Paul the Vi is no longer the unique expression of the Roman Rite and neither are the other rites. What then is the unique expression that the vast majority of Catholics aren’t attending?
Should be FRMJK
Fr ALLAN McDonald - I'm not concerned at all with your "straw man" worries. You and others maintain, again with no evidence, that this is because they don't "luv" the mass of Paul VI. You, and others, continue to ignore the multiple other societal/cultural/spiritual factors that have led to a decline in attendance in mainline churches, social service organizations, etc., over the last 50 years.
As for registered households in this parish we have 687 at last count. (The number published by the diocese is wrong, we have told them that it is wrong, but they do not change their number.) You and I both know why our registration numbers under a previous regime were so high. We also have added 50+ new students to our school since I arrived. I attribute that to the fine faculty and administration that has been assembled since I arrived.
Your increase at school is due to Covid as you told me, non Catholics fleeing Savannah’s abysmal public schools. You went from 1,500 households to 400 and now you say 600. Interesting. As it concerns the post Vatican II Church, the sensus fidelium is that being disengaged Catholics, those who now worship an Protestants or in other religions or are now nones comprising of nearly 90% more or less of Catholics is to be praised as the sensus fidelium. Nice try at feigning no reading skills in order to change the topic.
I note how Father Kavanaugh always defaults to societal pressure, which pressure is nearly ineffective against those who have found/experienced God, unless they have a true mental defect/compulsion/obsession, as the stuff the world offers is pathetic in comparison.
I can guarantee a church giving people answers to what they seek, and true spiritual guidance and worthy worship would be suffering only lack of seating. You can judge parish health quite effectively by noting how many are there praying at all hours including before and after mass....were they not to find the doors locked except at group activity times.
The conceit that the Church--armed with the sacraments, governed by the successors to the greatest evangelists for the Faith, and protected by our Lord's promises--should respond to loss of membership and interest with a shrug, "At least we're only doing almost as bad as the Rotaries or the bowling club," is one that I cannot wait to see put to rest where it belongs.
Honestly, at a time when so many other organizations have fallen flat on their faces, what a wasted, mismanaged opportunity for the Church to step in and present Jesus Christ and a friendly, strong community for people who are searching for meaning. The evangelicals/non-denoms are doing that and thriving. Why not Catholics? Is it because we're led by too many who are satisfied to managing the decline of the Church into moribundity? Bishops too unwilling to enforce real integrity? Priests too insistent on making the 1970s the only valid era of Catholicism to practice? Laity dis-enfranchised by all of the preceding? I'm not sure.
But I am sure "the Episocapalians are doing worse" is a tired, worn-out defense of how the Church has been doing things for the last half-century.
Nick
Nick,
The clergy trained in the late 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s are probably the least educated clergy since the Protestant Revolt (I refrain from the politically correct "Reformation" misnomer adopted by the secular world and adopted by fake Catholic clergy). They lack proper formation in moral theology and liturgy. Of course, there are notable exceptions like our genial host who is self-taught in the riches of the Catholic Faith
By any intellectually objective measure, the "reforms" as instituted following the Council have been an unmitigated disaster. Only people who hate the Catholic Faith feel otherwise. We have lost tens of millions from the practice of the true Catholic Faith. Parishes, schools and religious orders are collapsing. Most of our bishops are supine, Girlie men who have no business running anything and should select more suitable work such as being a barista or greeter at Walmart. No St. John Chrysostom's among the bunch.
And then we have corrupt bishops and clergy who support a political party whose specialty is demanding funds to kill the unborn during a pandemic and demand taxpayers pay for it, while jailing grandmothers who protest. This sort of clergy is beneath contempt and should be relegated to the nether regions.
Nick, no disagreement, in principle, with either you or TJM, but will point out the protestant sects you mention are also now collapsing, and for same reason as Catholic, which is they are not showing people how to positively find the highly touted God, and so people are quitting them as a money sucking sham....
the spiritual riches of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches offered the objective chance of finding God, but which riches are now ignored and their people ignorant, and in many Catholic groups now being positively discarded.
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - Again, you are flat-out lying. Yes, I told you that we had an enrollment increase due to COVID. 16 students. That's what I told you. You make things up because you don't have the capacity to engage in a serious conversation.
I did not tell you that the 50+ new students came because of COVID closed public schools. They are here because of the hard work of our parish and school leaders and our fine faculty.
The parish where I serve never had 1500 registered households. Never. You made that number up. According to the parish secretary who has worked here for 37 years, the highest ever may have been just under 800. Not for 30 years has this parish had as few as 400 households. The number of registered households as of today is 636 and the number of unregistered is 82
Bob - I never said anything about "societal pressure." And it is not a "default" to say that cultural trends impact everyone from social service groups like Rotary to the Freemasons (membership down 75% since 1959) to the mainline denominations.
Ol'Nick - "At least we're only doing almost as bad as the Rotaries or the bowling club," are your words, not mine. I didn't compare the Catholic Church to Rotary or a bowling club. In fact, I didn't compare the Church to anything. I DID say that the same factors impacting other groups/organizations impact our Church as well.
Hahahaha, no Fr. MJK, that's not a comparison at all. Bravo--your 1970s seminary education serving you well yet again.
And in your most recent comment, you directly draw a comparison with "groups like Rotary to the Freemasons[.]"
But no, no comparisons to anything, much less the Rotaries!
Thank you for the laugh, Father.
Nick
Ol' Nick - My seminary training was in the 1980's.
No, I did not compare the Church to any group. I said the same cultural/societal factors influencing their membership influenced membership in the Church.
Were I to say "It rained and the car and the patio got wet," I would not be comparing the car and the patio.
This is not rocket science.
Father Kavanaugh, of COURSE you did not say "societal pressure", when you actually omitted the p-word and said "continue to ignore the multiple other societal/cultural/spiritual factors that have led to a decline in attendance in mainline churches", and used the f-word. Nice dodge.
And even nicer dodge on your church's shrinking membership due to people not finding answers there...and not picking on you, this goes for any church forgetting the religion is primarily a spiritual endeavor, where spiritual guidance to union with God its primary purpose, and not a retirement home for sacrament dispensing functionaries or a social justice social club.
"You and others maintain, again with no evidence, that this is because they don't "luv" the mass of Paul VI. You, and others, continue to ignore the multiple other societal/cultural/spiritual factors that have led to a decline in attendance in mainline churches, social service organizations, etc., over the last 50 years."
I guess, by your most recent position (they change so readily!), there is nothing to compare between how the Church and "mainline churches, social service organizations" have been affected by "societal/cultural/spiritual factors . . . over the last 50 years"? How strange that they would be mentioned in the adjacent sentences on the same topic. It's almost as if some commonality between the two (the Church and other organizations) in declines in headcount were being pointed out. But I suppose there wouldn't be any comparison involved if that word were not defined as "an examination of two or more items to establish similarities and dissimilarities."
This is not rocket science; it's literacy.
Nick
I might briefly add that the statement "The car and the patio are wet" is, strictly speaking, a comparison of their state of being wet under a plain reading of the definition of "comparison."
Nick
Ol Nick - No, it is a not a comparison of the state of the car and patio.
The factors, all that goes along with Radical Individualism, that have led to the declines in Rotary, Freemasonry, and church attendance are what obtain for Rotary, Freemasonry, and church attendance. Radical Individualism is the common factor.
Ol' Nick - "It rained. Standing outside, Jesus, Ivan the Terrible, and Pol Pot got wet."
According to your mistaken notions, I have just compared Jesus, Ivan the Terrible, and Pol Pot.
Plainly, I have not. Yes, they are all wet due to rain, but the RAIN, not any quality of the individuals, is what is common to them all.
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