The Catholic association La Voie Romaine is collecting letters
from around the world that will be brought to the Vatican, at the
conclusion of a spring march connecting the two European capitals.
The H.F. will likely adjust his schedule to be out of town on that day. Hope they don't gather below the window of the Apostolic Palace, they won't find him there.
These antics have found their way into the Orthodox blogs. The reaction (paraphrasing): "No way will we consider reunifying with a Church that crushes a movement of people dedicated to the tradition of the Church". We've become a bit of a laughingstock because of this and pachamama (I don't know how to spell that). Yet, the Church's propaganda machine will issue these pieces noting how far relations with the Orthodox have come. They do NOT understand the Orthodox and Orthodoxy more generally if they truly think reunification will ever happen under the current circumstances.
By now, I hope you realize that Father K wants NOTHING to do with traditional, orthodox Roman Catholic Liturgy. I doubt he could celebrate Mass in Latin. Although a laymen, I could do so even though it would not be valid. It is my opinion, that a Catholic priest who cannot celebrate the EF is really not a Catholic priest. He may be validly ordained, but he is a stranger to his Faith.
As much as I would prefer to stay out of the fray, I HAVE to ask a couple of questions to Mr. TJM:
What do you mean when you refer to a Catholic priest who "cannot" celebrate the EF? Unfortunately, that has been the "normative" state of our Church from 1969 until Summorum Pontificum and the given policy of a majority of priests.
Do you mean "cannot" or "will not"?
Let's be real here: Most priests who offer the TLM for the first time need some training. Just because a priest has not bothered to get that training doesn't nullify the priesthood.
As much as I agree with most TLM lovers that this is the best form of the liturgy, we laypeople do not get to decided WHO is a priest and WHO is not. What you have suggested here is just begging for Father McDonald to dismiss you as a "Protestant"--something we've all witnessed on these pages before.
If you have a problem with a particular priest, there is no law that you have to like that priest, or even trust him. But, in all sincerity, I would be VERY careful about publicly trying to rouse resentment or rebellion against a priest. Those are very dangerous waters.
TJM: I am angered at your attempt at baiting me into slander is profoundly disappointing.
Reverend Father Allan McDonald: I both enjoy your blog and respect you personally, however, I am shocked that you permit these types of comments to be posted on your blog. I fail to see how this promotes civility, fraternity and the Faith. As you have posted potential slander, I would hope you would both post and respond to my comment. THIS, I do not need.
Father Michael J. Kavanaugh: I have taken a snap of this page with the potentially offending comment. I do not really have the time for this today, however, I will make the time to reveal myself to you privately and provide any needed assistance, up to and including raising a concern to your bishop. Please advise.
What I stated about Father K is factual, not libelous nor slander. You must know that truth is a defense to libel/slander. Father K actually has dished out slander himself referring to President Trump as evil. Did you take him to task for that? Or are you operating in the mode of Mark Thomas who thinks PF can do no wrong?
TJM the problem with so many of your criticism of people who post here is that you drive many of them away. I can’t believe that you a child of pre-Vatican II catechesis don’t know what the mortal sins against charity are and that name calling is sophomoric. Stop judging the personalities and motives of people and simply judge the content of what they might propose. That helps to keep this blog’s comment box from becoming a cesspool of negativity. Leave Fr. Kavanaugh and his politics out of it or criticize his politics. But you obsess on him. If I hear one more time that you are informing him that Democrats are the party of death, I’ll scream wherever I am. You’ve said it a billion times.
What you have stated is not factual, it is supposition. It would appear that Father Kavanaugh's bishop does not share your opinions as he IS a priest in good standing occupying the office of pastor. Fr. McDonald, our virtual priest/pastor, has repeatedly pointed out his concerns regarding both your comments and the spiritual consequences of those comments. I would hope, as someone who was evidently schooled to be obedient to their priest, that you would reflect upon the provided guidance, and change your actions accordingly. To do otherwise is disobedience, disrespectful and per the guidance provided by our virtual pastor, sinful. It is my hope that you prayerfully reflect upon the council provided by Fr. McDonald. I too will use this scenario to recommit myself to the responsible use of my platform here as well as in other forums.
It is a factual statement, all you have to do is read his comments about Liturgy and some of John Nolan's finer moments in pointing out the deficiencies of his progressive positions. And again when are you going to take Father K to task for some of his over the top statements? Have a nice day!
Reading critically and trying to keep up with Fr's references to theology, science and philosophy, I have no concerns with what he has said that I have read. I don't hang on every word posted to this blog and I do not intend to start for purposes of policing others. It's neither my business nor my responsibility to do so. You do what suits you, I would only hope that our host exercises oversight as the dynamic that has established itself more recently needs to stop. We are better than this, we should expect more of and from ourselves. We will never effect a change of heart of the sinner if we sin ourselves! We will evangelize to no one! I don't mean to sound like some ninny, but what else are we here for....the colorful photos and lace?
The distinction between you, John Nolan, myself and Fr. is that he is the only one of the four of us who's a trained, ordained priest. You might know the Latin words to mass according to the '62 missal, however, you playing mass vs. a priest celebrating the holy sacrifice are obviously separate, distinct and irreconcilable. They are trained to truly know what is being said, we are not. Finally, none are obliged to celebrate mass according to the '62 missal, so to use that as a litmus test of validity, or lack thereof is faulty. I refuse to write someone off for such an unreasonable reason.
I won't, by the way, stoop so low as to respond to what I think you are really saying with "Have a nice day!". Again, we should strive to be better than that. I will say that more than enough time has been devoted to responding you by myself and others here including our host. You have contributed to driving away other contributors. As the pool of contributors is shrinking, perhaps Fr. will consider deactivating the combox if there isn't some other means of convincing you to stop.
ByzRus - I do not believe the Person In Question is rational, so his accusations cannot be taken seriously. As is obvious, The PIQ is also incapable of an adult conversation or an exchange of ideas here or, I suspect, anywhere. That's why I no longer respond directly to his posts and only rarely do so obliquely. (Sometimes I just can't help myself!)
I appreciate your concern, but there is nothing to be gained by taking any kind of action with the Powers That Be regarding the PIQ.
I appreciate that you and I can have SIGNIFICANT disagreements without having the conversation devolve into a something as unseemly as we too often experience here and in other online comment sections. I mean, I watch an stunning performance of the Queen of the Night aria by Diana Damrau on YouTube - gives me goose bumps every time - and then read some equally stunning comments from those who aren't able to appreciate the performance.
So, I would suggest you follow my lead regarding the PIQ. As long as Fr. ALLAN McDonald chooses to post PIQ's comments, just give them a glance, offer a prayer for all of us, and move on.
Looks around and sees food splattered on the furniture, floor, walls and ceiling, dotted with shards of glasses and plates...
I see I came in just after a fight. I'm glad it's over and I missed it entirely. Here's my comment about the proposed pilgrimage to Rome:
I suggest two things:
1) Find ways to communicate constantly your love for the Holy Father. Send daily spiritual bouquets, offer Masses for him along the way, carry signs (at least some in English, for the international press) that say, "We love the Holy Father" and "Tu es Petrus" (ok, that's Latin) and the like.
2) Find a way for at least some of you to do some portion of it on your knees.
Don't misunderstand: I am not suggesting anything about the state of the souls of the pilgrims. My point is not to suggest anyone seeking the TLM is a terrible sinner. No, my point is, come to Peter with the most abject humility. Beg him on your knees. He can do whatever he wishes, at least no one can say your request was made in contumacy or pride. You come to beg.
Remember, the goal is to soften his heart. This is a spiritual battle.
You will note that Father K has slandered me by stating I am not rational. He is engaging in projection. He is the one who is not rational: a Catholic priest who votes for a party that has decreed that abortion is “healthcare” and an “essential healthcare service” during a pandemic and demanded funding for Planned Parenthood. There really is nothing more to say to you if that is a “spiritual” leader you support. Good luck
15 comments:
The H.F. will likely adjust his schedule to be out of town on that day. Hope they don't gather below the window of the Apostolic Palace, they won't find him there.
These antics have found their way into the Orthodox blogs. The reaction (paraphrasing): "No way will we consider reunifying with a Church that crushes a movement of people dedicated to the tradition of the Church". We've become a bit of a laughingstock because of this and pachamama (I don't know how to spell that). Yet, the Church's propaganda machine will issue these pieces noting how far relations with the Orthodox have come. They do NOT understand the Orthodox and Orthodoxy more generally if they truly think reunification will ever happen under the current circumstances.
Why would the Orthodox want to reunite with this Hot Mess?
ByzRus,
By now, I hope you realize that Father K wants NOTHING to do with traditional, orthodox Roman Catholic Liturgy. I doubt he could celebrate Mass in Latin. Although a laymen, I could do so even though it would not be valid. It is my opinion, that a Catholic priest who cannot celebrate the EF is really not a Catholic priest. He may be validly ordained, but he is a stranger to his Faith.
As much as I would prefer to stay out of the fray, I HAVE to ask a couple of questions to Mr. TJM:
What do you mean when you refer to a Catholic priest who "cannot" celebrate the EF? Unfortunately, that has been the "normative" state of our Church from 1969 until Summorum Pontificum and the given policy of a majority of priests.
Do you mean "cannot" or "will not"?
Let's be real here: Most priests who offer the TLM for the first time need some training. Just because a priest has not bothered to get that training doesn't nullify the priesthood.
As much as I agree with most TLM lovers that this is the best form of the liturgy, we laypeople do not get to decided WHO is a priest and WHO is not. What you have suggested here is just begging for Father McDonald to dismiss you as a "Protestant"--something we've all witnessed on these pages before.
If you have a problem with a particular priest, there is no law that you have to like that priest, or even trust him. But, in all sincerity, I would be VERY careful about publicly trying to rouse resentment or rebellion against a priest. Those are very dangerous waters.
TJM: I am angered at your attempt at baiting me into slander is profoundly disappointing.
Reverend Father Allan McDonald: I both enjoy your blog and respect you personally, however, I am shocked that you permit these types of comments to be posted on your blog. I fail to see how this promotes civility, fraternity and the Faith. As you have posted potential slander, I would hope you would both post and respond to my comment. THIS, I do not need.
Father Michael J. Kavanaugh: I have taken a snap of this page with the potentially offending comment. I do not really have the time for this today, however, I will make the time to reveal myself to you privately and provide any needed assistance, up to and including raising a concern to your bishop. Please advise.
ByzRus,
What I stated about Father K is factual, not libelous nor slander. You must know that truth is a defense to libel/slander. Father K actually has dished out slander himself referring to President Trump as evil. Did you take him to task for that? Or are you operating in the mode of Mark Thomas who thinks PF can do no wrong?
TJM the problem with so many of your criticism of people who post here is that you drive many of them away. I can’t believe that you a child of pre-Vatican II catechesis don’t know what the mortal sins against charity are and that name calling is sophomoric. Stop judging the personalities and motives of people and simply judge the content of what they might propose. That helps to keep this blog’s comment box from becoming a cesspool of negativity. Leave Fr. Kavanaugh and his politics out of it or criticize his politics. But you obsess on him. If I hear one more time that you are informing him that Democrats are the party of death, I’ll scream wherever I am. You’ve said it a billion times.
Stop name calling and judging those who post.
Father McDonald,
I am happy to do so and hope you will exhort the others to do the same. I would hate to think clerics are held to a lower standard
TJM,
What you have stated is not factual, it is supposition. It would appear that Father Kavanaugh's bishop does not share your opinions as he IS a priest in good standing occupying the office of pastor. Fr. McDonald, our virtual priest/pastor, has repeatedly pointed out his concerns regarding both your comments and the spiritual consequences of those comments. I would hope, as someone who was evidently schooled to be obedient to their priest, that you would reflect upon the provided guidance, and change your actions accordingly. To do otherwise is disobedience, disrespectful and per the guidance provided by our virtual pastor, sinful. It is my hope that you prayerfully reflect upon the council provided by Fr. McDonald. I too will use this scenario to recommit myself to the responsible use of my platform here as well as in other forums.
ByzRus,
It is a factual statement, all you have to do is read his comments about Liturgy and some of John Nolan's finer moments in pointing out the deficiencies of his progressive positions. And again when are you going to take Father K to task for some of his over the top statements? Have a nice day!
TJM,
Reading critically and trying to keep up with Fr's references to theology, science and philosophy, I have no concerns with what he has said that I have read. I don't hang on every word posted to this blog and I do not intend to start for purposes of policing others. It's neither my business nor my responsibility to do so. You do what suits you, I would only hope that our host exercises oversight as the dynamic that has established itself more recently needs to stop. We are better than this, we should expect more of and from ourselves. We will never effect a change of heart of the sinner if we sin ourselves! We will evangelize to no one! I don't mean to sound like some ninny, but what else are we here for....the colorful photos and lace?
The distinction between you, John Nolan, myself and Fr. is that he is the only one of the four of us who's a trained, ordained priest. You might know the Latin words to mass according to the '62 missal, however, you playing mass vs. a priest celebrating the holy sacrifice are obviously separate, distinct and irreconcilable. They are trained to truly know what is being said, we are not. Finally, none are obliged to celebrate mass according to the '62 missal, so to use that as a litmus test of validity, or lack thereof is faulty. I refuse to write someone off for such an unreasonable reason.
I won't, by the way, stoop so low as to respond to what I think you are really saying with "Have a nice day!". Again, we should strive to be better than that. I will say that more than enough time has been devoted to responding you by myself and others here including our host. You have contributed to driving away other contributors. As the pool of contributors is shrinking, perhaps Fr. will consider deactivating the combox if there isn't some other means of convincing you to stop.
ByzRus - I do not believe the Person In Question is rational, so his accusations cannot be taken seriously. As is obvious, The PIQ is also incapable of an adult conversation or an exchange of ideas here or, I suspect, anywhere. That's why I no longer respond directly to his posts and only rarely do so obliquely. (Sometimes I just can't help myself!)
I appreciate your concern, but there is nothing to be gained by taking any kind of action with the Powers That Be regarding the PIQ.
I appreciate that you and I can have SIGNIFICANT disagreements without having the conversation devolve into a something as unseemly as we too often experience here and in other online comment sections. I mean, I watch an stunning performance of the Queen of the Night aria by Diana Damrau on YouTube - gives me goose bumps every time - and then read some equally stunning comments from those who aren't able to appreciate the performance.
So, I would suggest you follow my lead regarding the PIQ. As long as Fr. ALLAN McDonald chooses to post PIQ's comments, just give them a glance, offer a prayer for all of us, and move on.
Looks around and sees food splattered on the furniture, floor, walls and ceiling, dotted with shards of glasses and plates...
I see I came in just after a fight. I'm glad it's over and I missed it entirely. Here's my comment about the proposed pilgrimage to Rome:
I suggest two things:
1) Find ways to communicate constantly your love for the Holy Father. Send daily spiritual bouquets, offer Masses for him along the way, carry signs (at least some in English, for the international press) that say, "We love the Holy Father" and "Tu es Petrus" (ok, that's Latin) and the like.
2) Find a way for at least some of you to do some portion of it on your knees.
Don't misunderstand: I am not suggesting anything about the state of the souls of the pilgrims. My point is not to suggest anyone seeking the TLM is a terrible sinner. No, my point is, come to Peter with the most abject humility. Beg him on your knees. He can do whatever he wishes, at least no one can say your request was made in contumacy or pride. You come to beg.
Remember, the goal is to soften his heart. This is a spiritual battle.
ByzRus,
You will note that Father K has slandered me by stating I am not rational. He is engaging in projection. He is the one who is not rational: a Catholic priest who votes for a party that has decreed that abortion is “healthcare” and an “essential healthcare service” during a pandemic and demanded funding for Planned Parenthood. There really is nothing more to say to you if that is a “spiritual” leader you support. Good luck
Fr. MJM,
Thank you for your words. I will follow your example.
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