Saturday, September 17, 2016

WHAT'S UP WITH CHRIST CATHEDRAL, GARDEN GROVE, AKA, CRYSTAL CATHEDRAL?

Last year, the Diocese of Orange presented design schemes for the renovation of the former "Reformed Church" Crystal Cathedral of Dr. Robert Schuller. I did not like what I saw and evidently word has gotten to the higher ups from others as it appears an entirely new scheme has been developed that, in this ultra modern non-Catholic space, is more traditional.

Here it is as the Crystal Cathedral:
Here is the original plan from last year's renovation proposal:

And here is the new redesign of it:

This is a difficult space to make into a Catholic Cathedral, but I like the latest design plan much more than the former one.



40 comments:

TJM said...

Still looks like a Marriot Lobby. Pathetic. I wouldn't contribute a dime.

Anonymous said...

The new design is much better. I never thought they could make that glass box look Catholic but they did. What is missing is a prominate image of Our Lady.

Dialogue said...

I'd hate to pay the air conditioning bill.

Julian Barkin said...

Meh it will never be anything but modern. Somethings just can be retrofitted. They should put the tabernacle center behind the altar and not the bishops seat, and that's it. Nothing else more can be done.

northernhermit said...

Some fiddlebacks, and mantillas, and candles, and a Crucifix , and a confessional just might spruce it up a bit and give it that traditional feel.

rcg said...

Looks like this would be a good home for the school of Liberace Theology.

Dialogue said...

First of, that was clever, rcg!

Second, yes, northernhermit, the Roman liturgical tradition itself can spruce up anything, from a Protestant church to a battlefield.

Anonymous said...

Correct northernhermit, add the TLM, statues, communion rail, altar boys only, Gregorian chant, Mozart, Palestrina, well you get but it ain't going to happen, move on to a TLM parish this is a mess!!!

Gene said...

It is a monumental piece of crap and the Church was silly to even entertain such a thought.

Anonymous said...

I have always believed what Pope Benedict the XVI had stated years ago, that the Church will survive with only a "few" true believers and then cleanse itself of the FILTH. If we don't return to the Pre-Vatican II Church we are truly finished. Enough already of hand holding, kiss of peace, altar girls, female and male lectors, dancing girls in leotards, felt banners, Life Teen Mass, Social Justice Catholicism, drums, guitars, polka, mariachi, folk music, lesbian nuns protesting at U.S. Army bases, well you get the drift, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP! The New Spring Time utterly failed ladies and gentleman, it was a disaster it will take decades to recover what was lost!

Gene said...

Anonymous @ 3:38, Amen and amen!!

Anonymous said...

Even at a young age in the mid-70's at the height of the Novus Ordo makeover of the Church I looked around and there was something missing, my first Holy Communion was with the Our Father prayer clapping our hands and swaying with dance moves, folk music was blaring from the once former choir loft brimming not with the organ but drums and guitars, the priest wore a stole with doves and wheat designs on it and was greeting people in the pews like it was some sort of greet and meet. I was only 10 years old and knew nothing of the Traditional Latin Mass and the sacraments, yet I felt totally out place there and knew this was wrong. I remember my Slovak Grandmother that day looking dismal and later told me this was not what Roman Catholicism was about, she thought it resembled a "Holy Roller" service as she put it. Sadly my once devout Slovak Grandmother NEVER went to Mass again, yet I knew why she stopped, the Novus Ordo service was not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass she was brought up in. As I grew into my teens I discovered a movie called "Catholics" with Martin Sheen, it was about a devout group of Catholics resisting the NEW ORDER and attending the TLM only. It was then and there that the TLM came into my life and knew this was the TRUE MASS OF ALL TIME, I wished my Grandmother was alive when I discovered my first TLM parish so I could bring her back into the Church of her childhood, yet that was not to be. Yes, give me Roman and Gothic chasubles, Latin, kneeling, communion on the tongue, silence, mantillas, suits and ties, dresses on ladies, Gregorian chant, high altar, six candle sticks, central tabernacle and yes the mighty organ, I wish my Baba was here to see this all coming back as she once knew it, the Mass of All Times was almost destroyed but it is Christ's Mass and nothing can ever destroy it.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Anonymous at 4:09 PM, I share the same story about discovering the Traditional Latin Mass, very similar situation even to the extent that I'am a Slav, Croatian to be exact, I have never looked back and have been attending the TLM since my youth in the 1980's. I too felt out of place and thought to myself is there something wrong with me? It was not me however, it was the modern Church that was wrong, the modernists did what Martin Luther could not and he would be very happy with the outcome. Don't lose hope everybody the Church will once again come to life with the return of the Traditional Latin Mass. It may not happen in our lifetime but it will happen, in the meantime support any priest who is willing to offer the TLM by any means, buy them traditional vestments, altar missals, they need your help, open your wallets and give them the means to bring back the TLM.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

When one calls for the elimination of Church doctrine - and that is what Anonymous 3:38 has done when he speaks of doing away with the Church's Social Doctrine - one is doing precisely the same thing that many here are accusing Pope Francis of doing.

Can't have it both ways.

TJM said...

B.C. Caliban, quid vobis videtur?

Anonymous said...

Attended a wonderful Traditional Latin Mass yesterday. Even if it were celebrated in the edifice of Christ's Cathedral pictured here it could not detract from the singular beauty and peace of the Traditional Latin Mass. Every time I don't have to attend the "Holy Roller" service as described by the Slovak Grandmother of Anonymous at 4.15, it is such a blessed relief. Deo Gratias for Benedict XVI and Summorum Pontificum.

Jan

John Nolan said...

To be fair, I don't think Anon @ 3.38 was talking about doing away with the Church's social doctrine - as usual Fr K is seizing on one remark (conveniently ignoring the main thrust of the argument), and twisting it to serve his own ends.

What is at issue here is the extent to which the Church's social teaching (from Leo XIII to Pius XI, perhaps the most underrated of 20th century popes) has, like almost anything else, been perverted and distorted since Vatican II.

Fr K has convinced himself of the rightness of his brave new world and thinks the only criticism comes from embittered conservatives. However, those of us who are not blinkered know that the debate continues, in fact it is intensifying, and although the liturgical question is important, it goes beyond that.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Anonymous said, "Enough already of well you get the drift, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP!"

Now, you may think that Anonymous is happy to retain "hand holding, kiss of peace, altar girls, female and male lectors, dancing girls in leotards, felt banners, Life Teen Mass, Social Justice Catholicism, drums, guitars, polka, mariachi, folk music, lesbian nuns protesting at U.S. Army bases."

The only item in the list that includes doctrine is "Social Justice Catholicism." Social Justice Catholicism is essential to the teaching and practice of the Church and doing away with it is no different than doing away with our doctrine on marriage/divorce/communion.



TJM said...

Fr. Kavanaugh, dead wrong as usual. To conflate "social justice" theories with the Church's doctrine on marriage/divorce/communion is preposterous. Left-wing loons who could care less about the Church trot this nonsense out at election time to justify extortionary taxes to maintain public employee because it serves get their braindead voters out to vote to maintain a dying and unsustainable status quo (kind of like some members of the Church desperate to maintain the dreary liturgical status quo while the Church is crumbling).Where is the "social justice" in forcing cabbies and waitresses to pay higher taxes to support the generous salaries and pensions of public employee union members? Answer: there is none. And Leo XIII would be shocked as to how "social justice" has been perverted to serve the political needs of the looney left who are abortion droolers and gay marriage supporters.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

TJM - Doctrine is Doctrine is Doctrine.

A fine compendium of the social doctrine of the Church, entitled "Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church" is available at

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

I will note that this compendium does not contain any "social justice" theories....

John Nolan said...

Perhaps the author might care to clarify his terminology, but I would infer from the context that 'Social Justice Catholicism' refers not to the Church's social teaching per se, but to the overemphasis of one aspect of the Church's mission to the detriment of her main concern, which is the salvation of souls. Social justice is important (although it can mean different things to different people) but is not the main reason for the Church's existence.

Nor do I think that when he mentioned the kiss of peace he was referring to what occurs at a Solemn Mass in the Roman Rite.

Anonymous said...

SO it is said above that the Latin Mass is the true Mass of all time...

Really?

What about Eastern rite liturgies? If we really wanted to get ultra-traditional, lets go back to Aramaic or Greek of the first century....

One thing I like about Eastern Orthodoxy is their claim "uniformity is the death of Orthodoxy." Every liturgy does not have to be the very same thing. Oh, there can and should be basic standards, but certainly as Fr. M says, liturgy is not either/or but both/and. I know of Episcopal parishes that coexist with their old 1928 Prayer Book and the more modern 1979 version (Rite 1 in the latter is about identical to the ordinary Roman rite). Eastern Orthodox parishes can have both English and their native tongue (Greek, Arabic, whatever). There are some things I like and dislike about each version (Latin and ordinary form), but to the extent possible, both should be allowed.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Anon 4:53 - Along with the Eastern Catholic Churches we must also consider Orthodoxy in its ancient history, its variety of rites, and policies and practices. As True Churches, they exist without union with the See of Peter, their sacraments are valid. They are, as Pope Saint John Paul II noted, another "lung" of the Church.

There is diversity in unity and unity in diversity.

John Nolan said...

To go back to first-century Greek or Aramaic would not be 'ultra-traditional' since neither language is traditional to the Roman Rite - tradition is after all what has been handed down. The Eastern Rites have their own traditions. As a boy I remember (it would have been in 1960 or 1961) a visiting priest from one of the eastern Churches in communion with Rome celebrating his traditional liturgy in place of the parish Mass. I distinctly remember his 'Afro' hairstyle and voluminous gold chasuble. The parish priest introduced him with the words 'This is not the Latin Mass with which we are familiar, but it is still the Mass. The language used is very similar to that used by Our Lord himself.'

Nobody minded at all. We were more ecumenical in those days than we are now. Not long ago I witnessed a visiting Lithuanian priest with hardly any English struggling to say a Novus Ordo English Mass. To have allowed him to celebrate in his own language or in Latin would presumably have alienated the modern congregation.

TJM said...

Fr. Kavanaugh,

An encylical on social justice is NOT on par with the Catholic doctrine on marriage A Catholic is free to reject Leo XIII's encylical, Rerum Novarum, as it is not infallible teaching, id est, doctrine. The principles enunciated in Rerum Novarum deal with prudential judgments, not infallible teaching. Of course, fake catholics, like those in the Abortion Party (formerly the Democratic Party) have misused and abused Leo XIII's principles in a manner he would never recognize if he were around today.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

TJM - Consider carefully your reasoning:

"An encylical on social justice is NOT on par with the Catholic doctrine on marriage A Catholic is free to reject Leo XIII's encylical, Rerum Novarum, as it is not infallible teaching, id est, doctrine."

Consider, then, the teaching of Lumen Gentium (25):

"This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme Magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking."

The teaching found in Rerum Novarum is based on the Traditional teaching of the Church and expresses the mind and will of Leo XIII. There are 41 notes. 28 of them refer directly to Sacred Scripture. 5 refer to the Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas Aquinas. Rerum Novarum is not simply a collection of "prudential judgments."

To say that one is simply "free to reject" Rerum Novarum is not correct, especially given Lumen Gentium 25, quoted above.

If, as you maintain, one is "free to reject" the Church's teaching as found in papal encyclicals, are Catholics not free to reject what is found in Humanae Vitae? Or Ut Unum Sint? Or Sacredotalis Caelibatus? Or Divino Alllante Spiritu?

You see, one cannot simply dismiss papal encyclical teaching. The Social Teaching of the Church is doctrinal.

rcg said...

Inagree with the interpretation of Anon's original intent as a complaint agaist the 'spirit' of Catholic Social Action vice Catholic Social Teaching. E.g. We collect food for the local St Vincent dePaul in our basement but do not hide illegal immigrants. Although they do spray our church with graffiti.

John Nolan said...

'Social Justice Catholicism' is essential to the teaching and practice of the Church'.

'I will note that this compendium does not contain any "social justice" theories...'

This from a man who claims other commentators contradict themselves. I bet his sermons are a hoot.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

"The work of the Church is to bring all people into relationship with God, and also to transform and sanctify the society in which we live (U.S. Catholic bishops, Disciples Called to Witness: The New Evangelization). Thus, "the Church teaches that social justice is an integral part of evangelization, a CONSTITUTIVE (caps mine) dimension of preaching the Gospel, and an essential part of the Church's mission" (U.S. bishops, Communities of Salt and Light)."

"Catholic Social Teaching comes out of the rich history of papal encyclicals, bishops’ letters and other official documents that focus on the economic, political and social concerns of humanity. This teaching is rooted in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures as well as in traditional philosophical and theological teachings of the Church."

"The teaching of Pope Pius XI is still relevant: “the distribution of created goods, which, as every discerning person knows, is labouring today under the gravest evils due to the huge disparity between the few exceedingly rich and the unnumbered propertyless, must be effectively called back to and brought into conformity with the norms of the common good, that is, social justice” - Pius XI, Encyclical Letter Quadragesimo Anno: AAS 23 (1931), 197.

I do not preach sermons, but homilies. They may be a hoot, but they are certainly Catholic.

John Nolan said...

'Social justice' is indeed part of the vocabulary of the Catholic Church since it was first used by a Jesuit priest in 1840 but it is not specifically defined either in the Compendium or elsewhere. Pius XI rightly drew attention to the evils of an extreme imbalance in the distribution of property and wealth, but would condemn a society which tried to impose equality through confiscation (either directly or indirectly through punitive taxation). Egalitarianism is counter to Catholic teaching.

'Liberation theology' grew out of a concern for social justice and provided it can be squared with Catholic teaching is legitimate (Pope Francis and Gerhard Müller are at one on this). Its more extreme manifestation strayed into heresy and was condemned. Social justice is a useful concept but is not in itself Doctrine.

'Social Justice Catholicism' (capitalized) would seek to define Catholicism in terms of one of its concerns and is both inappropriate and misleading.

As a footnote, Cardinal Sodano in his letter commending those who compiled the Compendium, rendered 'res novae' as 'new things'. Actually it equates to our word 'revolution', and it is in this sense that Leo XIII, a classical scholar, uses it.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

"Social Justice" is indeed part of our vocabulary, but it is much more.

It is constitutive of the Gospel and of the mission of the Church. It may be defined as "justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society."

Social Justice does not seek to impose equality - there is nothing in the Church's Social Justice Doctrine that suggests this. That some (few) have veered toward this idea does not alter the Church's teaching.

"Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor." (CCC 1807)

John Nolan said...

The Church does not have a Social Justice Doctrine. She has a social Doctrine (of which social justice is a constituent element) which was given a new impetus in the 19th century, was developed further over the past century or so, and is set out in the Compendium of 2004. The latter is not an entirely satisfactory document. It is overlong, nebulous and repetitive, which is probably why few people have read it.

For example, the section on terrorism condemns it without actually defining it, which isn't very helpful. Similarly, the issue of deterrence in the nuclear age is treated in a superficial way (I don't think the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace had any members who were versed in nuclear strategy).

Fr K, a man who cannot bring himself to follow convention by capitalizing the word 'Mass' has now started capitalizing 'social justice' whereas in earlier comments he correctly left it in lower case. I wonder why? No point in asking him, you'll only get the usual fudge.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Following convention is too often an excuse for "I'm too lazy or too afraid to think for myself."

TJM said...

Fr. Kavanaugh,

I bet you dismiss papal teaching all of the time. When was the last time YOU instructed your congregation on Humanae Vitae? I'm not holding my breath because I suspect you're just another "cafeteria Catholic" priest. Thanks for the laugh.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

TJM - You recently said that Rerum Novarum could be dismissed.

Your words, "An encylical on social justice is NOT on par with the Catholic doctrine on marriage A Catholic is free to reject Leo XIII's encylical, Rerum Novarum, as it is not infallible teaching, id est, doctrine."

You're not exactly in a position to argue in favor of adhering to encyclicals...

John Nolan said...

'Following convention is too often an excuse for "I'm too lazy or too afraid to think for myself"'

The writer, having exercised this admirable quality of intellectual autonomy, has reached the conclusion that Mass does not merit capitalization whereas social justice does. This gives an insight into his priorities but hardly answers the question.








John Nolan said...

To return to the topic, given the position of the altar, the bishop's cathedra is correctly placed (see the Lateran Basilica). In a cathedral the Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in its own dedicated chapel (sorry, Julian).

Joseph Paxton's highly original design for the building to house the Great Exhibition of 1851 was contemptuously dubbed by 'Punch' the Crystal Palace. It was re-erected at Sydenham when the Exhibition closed and was a much-loved landmark and concert venue until it burned down eighty years ago.

The Crystal Cathedral may eventually achieve iconic status. Perhaps it will open with a Solemn Pontifical Mass (Charles-Marie Widor's Mass for Double Choir and Two Organs Op.36 should fill the space quite well).

Do such things exist in California?

TJM said...

FR. Kavanaugh,

You're supposed to be a Catholic priest. Stop with the dilatory tactic and please respond to MY direct question about Humanae Vitae. If not, I know all I need to know about you. Just another clown out there masquerading as a Catholic priest.

John Nolan said...

TJM

I detect a certain naïveté in your request. The Fudgemaster-General doesn't answer direct questions. His preferred tactic is to seize upon one of your comments and proceed to worry it like a terrier with a bone.

It's all very predictable and even amusing in its way. It's only frustrating if you allow it to be so. Since he has the feminine trait of always wanting the last word, it can be fun trying to leapfrog him.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

TJM - When, in one post, you trumpet a Catholic's freedom to ignore a papal encyclical, and then, in a later post, call another Catholic on the carpet for allegedly ignoring a papal encyclical, you reveal the weakness of your position.

As for the clowns, "Don't bother, they're here."