Two men of the same generation, one a traditionalist, the other a progressive, both the problem not the solution to the loss of Catholic moral identity in our current day and both of the same school of enablement of sin but in differing degrees:
My comments follow this article on Cardinal Carol Maria Martini and his diagnosis of the crisis in the Church. Is his rant the problem or the solution even to the sex abuse scandal? I say that his generation, those who are now in the late 60's and upward, whether progressive or traditionalist, is the problem not the solution!
REUTERS - The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was "200 years out of date" in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.
Martini, once favoured by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.
"Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous," Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.
"The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The paedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation," he said in the interview.
In the last decade the Church has been accused of failing to fully address a series of child abuse scandals which have undermined its status as a moral arbiter, though it has paid many millions in compensation settlements worldwide.
Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock.
"A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children."
In this way "the Church loses the future generation", Martini said in the interview, made a fortnight before he died. The Vatican opposes divorce and forbids contraception in favour of fidelity within marriage and abstinence without.
A liberal voice in the church, Martini's chances of becoming pope were damaged when he revealed he was suffering from a rare form of Parkinson's disease and he retired in 2002.
Pope John Paul II was instead succeeded in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, a hero of Catholic conservatives who is known by such critical epithets as "God's rottweiler" because of his stern stand on theological issues.
Martini's final message to Pope Benedict was to begin a shake up of the Catholic church without delay.
"The church is 200 years out of date. Why don't we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid?"
Martini was much loved and thousands paid their respects at his coffin in Milan cathedral on Saturday.
MY COMMENTS: Cardinal Martini clearly is of the school of Father Hans Kung and Charles Curran. This school was born prior to the Second Vatican Council, what many call the progressive branch of academia in the various schools of theology. The other school is represented by Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. Oddly enough, Pope Benedict prior to 1968 would have been considered of the school of Martini. 1968 was a decisive year for him when Catholicism in Europe and the USA was undergoing its greatest identity crisis following the Second Vatican Council and outright rebellion was taking place as the school of rupture in terms of interpreting the Second Vatican Council was in high gear.
I would say that Cardinal Martini a progressive thinks like many traditionalists. He thinks that if the church is more liberal it will have more members and win back those who have left or are lukewarm. Whereas conservatives think that if the Church becomes like she was in the 1950's the churches will be full again. Both are extremes but built on the same philosophy and both are wrong.
One only needs to look at liberal Protestantism and in particular the Episcopal Church to realize that the progressive screed in Christianity is like a dead duck. It has not filled their churches, in fact, like many progressive religious orders in the Church, mostly LCWR, progressive Christianity is moribund except for some lively pockets here and there within Protestantism, but certainly not within the LCWR.
Look at St. Francis de Sales Church in Atlanta, of the FSSP. Atlanta has a huge Catholic population. If Catholics thought the future resided in the FSSP model of being Church, that parish should be the largest one in Atlanta. It simply isn't.
Growth in the Catholic Church lies somewhere in between traditionalism and progressivism. I've always thought of myself as theologically conservative but pastorally liberal. We need clear guidelines for living, strong laws, but we need mercy and kindness shown to people who struggle with the call to perfection which will only be realized on the other side of this life, the life of perfection found only in heaven. There are only glimpses of it on this side of life.
So we have to love the homosexual even if he or she hates the Church and we can't be shoving them off to hell, but simply call them to chastity and leave the privacy of their lives to them and God. If parents who love their homosexual children see the Church as hating their children, especially officials of the Church who have little or no empathy for the children or their parents, we need to examine just how Christ like are we?
We need to understand those who are in marriages that the Church cannot recognize and look at the good that is there and entrust the bad to God's mercy and allow them to make peace with God in the privacy of their lives.
We can speak of generalities and perfection but acknowledge we are sinners in the hands of a loving and merciful God.
But this progressivism can run a muck. Father Benedict Groschell's candid remarks about priests being seduced by teenagers is breath taking in his honesty no matter how wrong headed it is. Do you want to know why bishops gave a pass to so many priest abusers prior to 2002? Fr. Groeschell's remarks as a psychologist hits the nail on the head. The focus was on priests and finding ways to save their priesthood, thus shifting blame for their mortal sins and criminal behavior to the victims themselves, or to alcoholism or to stress and anxiety. Never mind that in 99% of the cases no matter what the cause of the abuse, the priest should have been reported to the authorities and suspended permanently from ministry, two policies which are now national and international policy in most dioceses.
What Cardinal Martini, of the old and dying school of progressivism is advocating is what the conservative Fr. Benedict Groeschell practiced and let slip in an infelicitous interview recently.
The problem is how to love the sinner and hate the sin and realize that judgement on sin sometimes means that the sinner must be punished on this side of life.
24 comments:
May God have mercy on Cardinal Martini's soul.
Here's an article that you may find interesting: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2012/08/31/the-signs-of-decay-in-the-church-were-well-evident-before-vatican-ii/
I've seen this theory before; prior to Vatican II the churches were full but with Catholics just going through the motions. Although the Baltimore Catechism was taught by nuns, people did not know their faith.
If true then this theory explains why the Church lost so many members so quickly after the Council.
Progressives use the term "thinking faith" as an euphemism for their dissent. I think traditionals need to steal this phrase because that's exactly what every good Catholic should have. It's when you think about your faith, Church teaching, and where you will spend Eternity that complete obedience to the Church results.
We need adult catechesis in our parishes. Not just memorizing the Baltimore Catechism but serious discussion and debate. Church teaching is very simple and consistent - it speaks for itself. When someone thinks and understands the Gospels they will return to the pews.
Father your comparison is unfair.
If you wish to conduct a fair comparison you would have to revert to the EF Mass as the main Mass offered in Diocesan Parishes, make the OF only available in 1 (maybe none) Parishes per Diocese and see which has the better success. The Mainstream Churches treat Traditionalists like lepers at worst, and as crazy uncles at best. Even someone as broad minded as you does not give the EF equal footing in your Parish with the OF and then wish to hold up unequal performance as a sign of failure. How can the Traditional Mass and Traditional Parishes be written off as failing when they are not even given the chance to take the test?
And please do not feel I am complaining about what level you support the EF at, it is your Parish, you are within your rights, but please fair is fair. If the Trad way was "the way" Mableton would be the largest Parish in the Atlanta Diocese...please...is it geographically located within 30 minutes of the entire Diocese? Of course not. It's not even within 30 minutes of the entire city of Atlanta. I suppose we shall now have to blame the folks of Tifton for failing to attend at St Joseph too.
Modernism was thoroughly condemned by Pope St. Pius, yet has become pervasive, at least in North America. The radical change happened following the close of the Council. The Latin Mass was forcibly removed, as were many altars. Liturgical music was displaced, to be replaced by exercises in banality. The laity were not prepared by the bishops--the changes were introduced overnight.
Of course, more recently, we have seen the incredible preparations taken prior to inducing the corrected Missal, although the changes which affect the laity fit nicely on a single sheet of paper.
We need catechesis of all ages. I spent two years in RCIA, and we had no instruction on the Mass.
Our classes were based largely on what I have come to understand are modernist essays. I knew they were by dissidents, but only later came to appreciate the Modernism is the heretical force we face.
I have a newly ordained local priest whom I like very much. I am going to propose to him that some classes be offered for adults. One on the Mass, both OF and EF, another on prayer. My notions need development, but the need is quite apparent.
Ours should not be a numbers game. As the Holy Father has said (paraphrasing), perhaps we should have a smaller, purer Church rather than a Church full of bodies that are absent of minds. While God calls all, every person is responsible for answering the call individually. It seems progressives seek to make being Christian easy whereas traditionalists (at least those I've seen post on this blog) seek for the Church to remain a bastion of the Gospel. The Church must teach, guard, guide, and pastor. She cannot due this when marching under a false banner.
Regarding your comments about the FSSP Parish, consider the following hypothetical.
Students gain control of the nation's school system. They change the required curriculum from 12 to 6 years, and during the required 6 years of schooling there are pizza parties and movies in class every day. After ten years of this, they allow individual schools to go back to the traditional curriculum if they want to. Surprisingly, some do, and their enrollment sinks like a stone.
Of course the future doesn't belong to the traditional curriculum--not with the dice loaded like that. But should it?
In the current climate of low expectations, neither the EF nor a genuinely Catholic culture will ever prosper. That doesn't mean either 1) trads are to blame for the current mess, or that 2) what we currently have is preferable to the EF and a genuinely Catholic culture.
I go to a traditional parish. On the Assumption I could not attend the traditional mass. I had to attend a novus ordo parish with my family. I knew it was going to be a novus ordo mass so I was prepared for it being very different. I know the mass is valid, but the priest gave a sermon and said the Virgin Mary had pain in child birth, the story of Adam and Eve was a mythological story and evolution was more than a theory. My children looked at me in horror and blurted out "He's wrong" Three days prior to this in the same Diocese my FSSP priest preached on Baptism and the fall of Adam and Eve and ended up saying, if you don't understand the fall of Adam and Eve you cannot understand the Bible. I wonder if we are all in the same church?
And yet, St. Francis de Sales is getting ready to add a third Mass on Sunday mornings to accommodate the crowds. No, it is not the largest parish in Atlanta. But as liberal pastors continue to be assigned to traditional N.O. parishes, there has been a steady stream of people (myself included) who are willing to make the journey to find an abuse-free Mass. As a result, we have fallen in love with the TLM.
I very much appreciate what you are doing in your parish. But the truth is, you would not have that freedom in the Archdiocese of Atlanta.
RG
Hmmm..a novel thought proposed? Give the OF and EF Masses equal footing in a parish and see what happens?
A lovely idea I must say. However, parishioners aren't lab rats and no pastor can afford to be that dictatorial.
One doesn't acquire clairvoyancy by imposing one's wishes, but by getting the pulse of the people.
Of course knowing when the time is ripe to nudge the situation along is good too.
Step One: Catechesis on both forms of the Mass.
Catholics actually hunger for this information.
Templar,
I'm glad to hear smaller towns in south Georgia (such as Tifton) being mentioned on this blog in connection with the EF. I still say that the aspirational goal should be to make the EF available within 30 minutes to an hour's drive for all areas of the Diocese of Savannah. Folks in the larger cities shouldn't get to enjoy all the privileges and amenities while we small town and rural folks go wanting--we matter just as much as the urban folks!
I live (by choice) in the country, almost twenty miles west of Waycross, a couple of miles off of the Tifton highway, but still in Ware County and, therefore in the jurisdiction of St. Joseph parish in Waycross. We already drive about 25 minutes to get to PRE, where I teach the Confirmation class, and Sunday Mass in Waycross. The next closest parish to us is a little further away in Douglas.
For me and my family, going to an EF Mass means:
a) Driving twenty miles east to Waycross and then on to Savannah by way of Jesup or Brunswick.
b) Driving twenty miles east to Waycross and then continuing down U.S. highway 1 south to Jacksonville, Florida and then continuing down I-295 south of the St. John's River to a parish on old St. Augustine Rd.
c) Driving about an hour west to Tifton and then continuing north up I-75 to Macon (I believe about an hour and a half on I-75).
I have done all three (none, as you can see, are close in distance) but the recently discovered south Jacksonville option is the easiest drive (all highway driving until a couple of blocks to the church. Going to an EF Mass (ideally)should not be this difficult in our Diocese!
As one who thinks often about history and its consequences you just don't know how often I think (and grumble aloud to my family) about how much better (and easier) it would be for Catholics in south Georgia if only King Henry VIII had not broken with the Church. If he had not, then most folks in our area would be Catholic today (as most long-time folks around here have English names and are Baptist and Methodist). Yes, if not for good ol' Henry then I might have the idyllic situation of the local Baptist church within walking distance of my house being a Catholic Church (even more idyllic if it had the EF!). It would be more like the little medieval village Catholic (now Anglican)churches in England.
But back to reality: I pray every day that more priests in our Diocese will become convicted of the need to learn the EF, which will help them become better priests and which will help many of us become better Catholics.
I agree with Anon 5, Templar and others. St. Francis de Sales is in the most out-of-the-way corner of Mabelton the diocese could find. It is a bad part of town, and it is in an old building that the parish has done a remarkable job of making a traditional Catholic Church. Tha Atlanta diocese has no desire anywhere near as clamant as that of hearing as little about traditional Catholic identity as possible.
There is a great deal of ambiguity coming from Rome and from Bishops who say they want to return to a truer Catholic identity and worship. So far, it appears to me that they have thrown some chum in the Traditionalist waters, but that is about it. It is frustrating to see the ambivalence in the comments and actions of good, traditionalist Priests like you and others who put their feet in the water in trepidated fashion, always looking over their shoulder at a Bishop or the Vatican. You are much farther along than most...you are actually in up to your waist!
Until the TLM is made a regular Sunday Mass at a normal hour, it isn't going anywhere. Even if you put it as the 5 pm Mass, you would see far better attendance. Plus, of course, aggressive catechesis. How about turning someone loose at RCIA and at Coffee and Conversation to start teaching and explaining the TLM and the Reform of the Reform?
Experiment: Change the time of the 9:30 Mass to 2 pm and see how much attendance drops. It is a terrible time. God cannot compete with the NFL or the National League...
Jacob - The creation accounts are mythological - they are "imaginative stories that use symbols to talk about reality, but a reality that is beyond human understanding."
The Bible includes many literary genres - myth, legend, debate, parable, letters, apocalyptic, etc. Understanding the literary forms of Scripture helps us understand the sacred authors' intentions, which, in turn, gives us a better understanding of what God has revelaed to us. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression." (CCC 110)
The creation accounts use "figurative language" (symbolism) in affirming a primeval event. (CCC #390) This understanding is not un-Catholic at all.
Evolution is, indeed, a theory. It seems to me, though, that you may be confusing "theory" with "hypothesis."
An hypothesis is a tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis is proved false and must be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.
As used by a scientist, a theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.
Evolution does not deal with the origins of life, but with the natural forces that change living organisms over time. A way of describing Darwin's theory is "descent with modification." The modifications that are passed on to successive generations are caused mainly by genetic mutations.
"Survival of the fittest" is an innacurate description of Darwin's idea -"Survival of the reproductively successful" is more to the point. A "fit" organism that does not reproduce successfully is, in terms of genetics-based evolution theory, a failure.
Good Father McDonald makes accusations (unfounded) and snide remarks (unChristian) on the death of Cardinal Martini.
Pope Benedict, in a telegram to Cardinal Angelo Scola, the current Archbishop of Milan, expressed his own sorrow at the death of "this dear brother, who has generously served the Gospel and the Church."
Pope Benedict recalled Cardinal Martini's many years of service as "an expert teacher, an authoritative biblical scholar and a beloved Rector of both the Pontifical Gregorian University and the Pontifical Biblical Institute." The Pope praised Martini as "a wise and diligent Archbishop of the Ambrosian Diocese."
I especially like the phrase, "authoritative biblical scholar."
Ultramontanism has its limits, doesn't it, Good Father?
PI, it is fine to discuss his biblical expertise but that is not my critique and I know you can read and know how you shift things to skirt the actual discussion. It is his liberal morality and bending over backwards to redefine what is acceptable moral behavior or ignoring immorality which is a philosophy that has led to the sex abuse scandal of which his generation is responsible including Law and evidently Groeschell and PJII all of whom in other areas gave exemplary service to the Church.
Good Father - So now you include Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Pope John Paul II in your condemnations? This is getting curioser and curioser.... Do go on!
This mess is what happens when one over responds to the whining of the times. Then it takes a very long while to clean up the mess and correct an error.
Perhaps a just little tweaking would have been sufficient.
Thank goodness the Church won't do that with regards to issues of morals and faith.
"Orthodoxy with a pastoral touch"..sounds to me like a good approach to life and life in the Church.
~SL
Pater,
Many moons ago when you and Marc debated your "creation accounts are mythical" statement, he produced contrary statements from 1) The Pontifical Biblical Commission refuting that statement, and 2) a statement from the pope that said commission's pronouncements were doctrinal. Thus, in the eyes of the Magisterium, you are teaching error when you make that statement.
I don't intend to re-debate your statement here. I merely post this to point it out to readers, since you obviously are hoping that they've forgotten it.
Father Alan, while I agree with your understanding of the Sacred Liturgy, I find this post and most of the comments a very sad commentary on the state of the church in our times and an affront to the Prince of Peace.
A sinner,
Father James
Of course the Pope has to say charitable things about a member of the college of Cardinals on his demise. De mortuis nil nisi bonum. However, to say that the Catholic Church is out of date, whether it be 200 years, 1000 years or 2000 years, is plainly heretical and I hope he did not die in this belief.
Despite the liberal hype, Martini, who openly questioned the reservation of the priesthood to men, was never papabile. He was an unreconstructed V2 progressive and one of the last of his type (Deo gratias).
It's quite a stretch to see anything resembling "condemnation" of Pope John Paul II in anything Fr. McDonald said. Though perhaps a recognition that even so great a saint and historic pope inevitably had a few blind spots.
I suspect his blind spot regarding accusations against priests and bishops stemmed from his background under Communism where most such accusations were false and trumped up.
But I've never been able to understand similarly his blind spot on the liturgy, with his thinking seemingly not emphasizing a "save the liturgy, save the faith" principle. I wonder whether that also was different under Communism, where perhaps alternative building blocks of "solidarity" played a more important role.
Or was he simply preoccupied with the political need to save the Church from socialist tyrannies, hence his focus on external rather than internal Church matters?
The location of the FSSP parish in Dayton is a very, very bad neighborhood. IT is not packed, but has a lot of folks there, including the daily masses and Holy Days of obligation at the 0700 Masses. The tiny Church where my mother lives in Tennessee is very far in the rural area and difficult to find. It is PACKED at 0800 every Sunday and Holy Day.
In Ohio, the Bishop gave the FSSP a parish Church he may have thought God-forsaken. Not even close. The deck is stacked against the traditionalists. But they, we, like Honey Badgers, don't care.
rcg,
I envy your mother's situation--a rural church with the EF and it's packed! What's not to like about that if you like the EF but don't want to live in a city?
I wish our Bishop (Hartmayer in Savannah, Ga.) would consider making one of our little rural churches into an EF parish. I know that they plan to close Queen of Peace Church in Lakeland, Ga. (the town where my parents were raised and where two of my brothers live). The little church was originally built in 1940 as an African-American mission with Mother Drexel's money and could easily be put back into its simple pre-Novus Ordo configuration. Holy Family Church (built in 1870) and in rural Atkinson county would be another possibility along these lines (however, I haven't heard anything about closing it--but the EF could still be offered there).
Honey Badger not picky--Honey Badger don't give up and he don't care!
Joseph, I was not clear: my mother's parish is not yet EF, but they are VERY conservative and have a Benedictine altar arrangement in the tiny space, the priest alone offers communion and at least half the congregation knelt, one at a time to receive. Only some of the really old folks didn't. The priest has begun a process that reminds me very much of FrAJM in that he has published a clarification on the use of Latin and the EF. I didn't ask, but I think he must be working with a 'dedicated group' to move on the EF. I wish I still lived there so I could help. The altar BOYS wear alb and surplice and know their stuff. NO ONE advances to the Altar except the priest and the Server, who wears his cassock when ever I have seen him. And most interesting of all, (Drum roll) he is a converted CofE.
rcg,
It still sounds very good to me. Does the priest offer the OF ad orientem?
It seems like Pater Ignotious can say anything as long as he says, "Good Father" emphasis on the Good.
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