Monday, November 1, 2010

HYPER-SECULARIZED CULTURE, CHURCH COUNTER CULTURAL?



Every year for that last few years, we have reached out to Catholics who no longer attend Mass or practice their faith with our “Awakening Faith” program; our efforts have touched quite a few and brought them back to the fold. Statistical reports tell us that nearly 70% of Catholics nationwide no longer attend Mass on any given Sunday. In the late 1950’s and early 1960’s the opposite was true, more that 80% of Catholics in this country did attend Mass every Sunday!

There are many reasons for this startling and drastic decline. Personally, I don’t blame the laity and maybe playing the blame game isn’t the healthiest exercise in reaching out to those who are alienated, lukewarm or skeptical about the Church. But I believe that the wrong people in both the clergy and some in religious life (sisters and brothers teaching in our Catholic schools and parishes) of the era right after Vatican II, took the leadership in implementing their corrupted version of Vatican II, what many people call the “spirit of Vatican II” which has little resemblance to Vatican II’s actual documents, as well as official post Vatican II teachings.

With the more controversial teachings on birth control and human sexuality, these very same individuals, perhaps best symbolized by Fr. Charles Curran of Catholic University of the 1960's, sought to inflame passions of rebellion and anti-authority within the clergy and laity rather than help the laity to mature in their moral decision making and their responsibility before God and the Church.

This "spirit of Vatican II" and rebellious "know better than the bishops and pope attitude" led to a corrupt model of implementing the directives of how the Mass should be celebrated in the vernacular and confusion concerning what is appropriate music for the Catholic Mass. Today’s celebration of the Mass is not as wild as it once was in the 1970’s but the consistency in quality, expectation and implementation varies widely from parish to parish. As the bishops said in other documents and I paraphrase, reverent celebrations of the Mass increase Catholic faith, whereas irreverent or poor celebrations of the Mass can weaken or destroy one’s Catholic faith.

Coupled with the confusion on how to appropriately implement the reforms of the Mass, we also lost our way in teaching the Catholic faith to our children of the 1960’s, 70’s and 80’s with a solid catechism. That’s about three generations of children who received minimal or even corrupted forms of Catholic doctrine. Today, unfortunately, for many Catholics their primary form of indoctrination is secularism that comes from the liberal media, its news programs and television shows and other forms of entertainment. Is it any wonder that so many are so lukewarm about their Catholic faith and means to salvation especially parents of new generations of Catholic Children who do not even bother to bring their children to Mass?

Today with our hyper-secularized culture, new pressures are placed upon Catholics in the areas of human sexuality, same sex marriage, homosexuality, abortion, birth control and other hot button political issues that place traditional Catholic teaching on an extreme outside of mainline thinking. If we hold publicly to what we believe we will be marginalized, ostracized or condemned as bigots and anti-women, anti-gay and anti-human rights and anti-intellectual. Wow! Who wants to be Catholic with those descriptions hurled at us if these are true? But of course, these slanders and libels are not true.

The antidote to this hyper-secularizing influence upon Catholics is the truth of Jesus Christ taught in the Bible and Catechism, Sunday Mass, daily prayer and devotions, frequent confession and a strong sacramental life. In these experiences of Church, we encounter Jesus Christ who alone will save us from sin and hell. God bless you.

We need saints of God to stand up for Christ and His Church even if it means swimming against the tide of secularism and anti-Catholicism. Saints and Martyrs did in the past, there is no reason to think that we can't do it today with the grace of God. Have a blessed All Saints Day!

95 comments:

SqueekerLamb said...

The second to the last paragraph may be the most important one of this posting!

Henry said...

Father, I really don't believe this is so hard to understand. The liturgy was the dike. When it disintegrated, the faith followed.

Priests turned their altars around because their bishops told them to. They will turn them back around when (and only when) their bishops tell them to. (This is not the whole story, but it is the key to the rest.)

Then the liturgy would be restored and the faith rebuilt. Not immediately and not for all those who have been lost, but in time with those who are left.

But isn't it obvious where (and with whom) the solution must start? Namely, where (and with whom) the problem began.

As a footnote, I know a situation where a priest started celebrating ad orientem at one daily Mass per week. I believe that he heard no adverse reaction from within the parish itself, but that he did receive one that counted from outside the parish.

Anonymous said...

I am sorry, but those that preach the Catholic faith have brought on the problems of the religion on themselves. Priests and their higher-ups do whatever they want, but they expect the followers to follow the "rules." I attended a Mass, recently, where the pastor of the parish gave the homily BEFORE the readings during Mass.
I am a "cradle" Catholic, but I also believe the Catholic faith is uninformed on the topic of homosexuality. My youngest is gay and I do not believe God hates him or his actions. It is hard to be Catholic when the religious expects so much from the flock, but so many of the leaders are so lame.

Frajm said...

I nor the Church believe that God hates tour son for his sexual orientation. But I might add that psychology and the trends in understanding sea in the secular world are uninformed by the word of God and his loving teachings geared toward not only the individual but the common good. When it comes to sex and sexuality we are all called to chastity as it concerns our state in life. In terms of the call to chastity, no one is excluded. Of course all of this is within the context of natural law.

Anonymous said...

These people have a point. It IS hard to swim against the currents of our culture and anti-Catholicism when you are facing it from your own diocese or parish. This isn't pointed at you, Father, but you know that's what many of us do every day.

Anonymous said...

The Church, historically, has been slow to accept new truths, especially those proven by science. In 1632, the scientist Galileo was proclaimed a heretic by the Pope because he supported Copernicus' idea that all planets, including the earth, revolved around the sun. Bible verses were used to prove this scientific idea false: Joshua 10:13, Psalm 93, and Ecclesiastes 1:4-5. Galileo spent the remainder of his life under house arrest. Any guesses who was right?
There is growing evidence in many areas of science, i.e.psychology, psychiatry, and medicine that homosexuality is not a sickness. Homosexual orientation is as NATURAL as heterosexual orientation.
There are only six Bible verses that refer to same-sex behavior and none of them refer to homosexual orientation as it is understood today.
The Bible should be used to guide us in matters of faith, but should not be used when it comes to astronomy, sexual orientation, or other scientific matters.

pinanv525 said...

Anon, homosexuality is not "as natural" as heterosexuality. It is a statistical anomaly that is based upon, at the very least, a biological falsehood. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence that in many cases it is a choice, evidenced by the number of people who, during their adolescent period of fluid ego boundaries, made unfortunate choices based upon peer group pressure or the influence of older, predatory people who later reverted to normal behavior (yes, I said "normal"). The Church does not hate the homosexual. It does, however, condemn the behavior. Are there genetically determined homosexuals...probably. That does not change anything, as Fr. pointed out. You don't weaken family and society by bending over backwards (*sorry*)to accomodate anomalous behavior or pretend that it is just as "normal" as anything else. I mean, if it is all so genetically determined (as so many liberals and do goods scream at us), what about child molesters, psychopathic murderers, compulsive rapists, and habitual thieves (the social work crowd whines that these are genetically determined, too). Should we not, based upon your logic, grant them family benefits, parenting rights, and full integration into society? I mean, hey, we're hip. If you don't mind a homosexual teaching your kids, why should you mind a rapist, a murderer, or a child molester? Are you some kind of bigot?

pinanv525 said...

Also, regarding Galileo's so-called "house arrest," you make it sound so much worse than it actually was. His sentence, signed by seven Cardinals, was not ratified by Pope Urban VIII. He was allowed to stay in the grand villa of a Duke in Rome, then in the palace of one of his pupils near Siena, then he was finally allowed to move to his own home in Florence. He continued to teach, write,and receive visitors, among them John Milton. His nun sister came to live with him and took upon herself his penance of rciting the Psalms. He negotiated secretly with printers in Leiden, and had his works on mechanics published with no condemnation.he also managed to write some pretty satiric dialogues between fictional characters, the simpleton clearly a parody of the Pope and Inquisitors. The Church did nothing and, ultimately, somwetime in the 1800's, removed his workd from their prohibited list.

Galileo's Daughter said...

In response to Galileo's "Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina," in which Galileo proposed five exegetical principles dealing with how science should influence the interpretation of scripture, Card. Rob't Bellarmine wrote that the Copernican system should be regarded with suspicion because it would be "a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false."

This encapsulate's the Church's pretty consistent position toward science from the time of Galileo through the end of Pius XII's reign. It was not, shall we say, a warm relationship.

Having now come to understand that the Church has not the authority to "decree" a scientific fact into (or out of) existence, things are much better. Scientific progress has forced theologians to abandon their archaic ideas, and this is a good thing. Methinks the Church is comfortable with the current arrangement. And she is wise so to be.

Anonymous said...

Hey Pinanv525, why do you have to get nasty? Where in my comments did I make myself out to be a bigot? You don't know me from anybody. I think you are the one that has NO logic.

Anonymous said...

In response to pinanv525 comments, HOW DARE YOU compare homosexuality to child molesters, psychopathic murderers, compulsive rapists, and habitual thieves. Homosexuals are nowhere near being in that category. With your warped logic you could add the clergy to your list. I feel a lot of rage and hatred in you when you comment on homosexuality. What is wrong with you?

Frajm said...

I don't have access on the road here in N Dakota and can only post comments with my blackberry but not new blog entries. I hesitated posting the more inflamatory comments and do remind you of the need for civility and avoiding strident inflammatory remarks. But I might add that when we dimiss the Church's teaching on sexuality based not only on bible sources but also scripturr and tradition then any thing goes and anyone can justify their positiom based upon the dictatorship of subjectivism, a crass form of gnosticism. Ley's be charitable to one another and the Magisterium, after all we are Catholics!

Anonymous said...

To pinanv525, You totally missed the point on Galileo. The Pope at the time declared him a heretic. I don't care what Galileo's living arrangements were.

Anonymous said...

Satan could use Scripture to prove a point, too.

Robert Kumpel said...

1) Homosexuality is not so much a scientific issue for Catholics as it is a moral issue. There is plenty of "science" on both sides to argue about, so let's frame this a bit more clearly. Many physicians believe that alcoholism is a disease. The patient is told his appetite for liquor is not his fault, since he was born with some X-factor in his blood or some other such explanation. Fine. Does that excuse him continuing to drink? Regardless of whether one wants to drink or not, continual imbibing of the spirits is destructive to the individual and to those around him. If indeed homosexuals cannot help their attraction, it by no means excuses them for continuing to pursue their unnatural desires.

2) Heliocentrism was never condemned as heresy, nor was Copernicus condemned as a heretic. Galileo got himself in trouble by interpreting the scriptures to prove his theories (and he had much more in his writings than mere heliocentrism, much of which science has since disproved). Gallileo also published a fictitious dialogue between a character who held his views and a "fool" (who was a thinly disguised version of his own friend, the pope). Galileo was asked by Bellarmine to PROVE his theories, which he could not do at the time. However, his trial was based on his assertion that he had the authority to interpret the scriptures--ironically a Protestant position, given that Luther publicly called Copernicus a "fool". Galileo was never in any danger of torture and his "house arrest" was barely even that. Pope Urban VIII and many cardinals were his friends. However, Galileo DID NOT have the authority to twist the meaning of scripture any more than any other Catholic does. The Church was supporting most of the scientific research that took place at that time and to continue using Galileo to support this tired canard that the Church is the enemy of science is not just old, it's empty.

Robert Kumpel said...

1) Homosexuality is not so much a scientific issue for Catholics as it is a moral issue. There is plenty of "science" on both sides to argue about, so let's frame this a bit more clearly. Many physicians believe that alcoholism is a disease. The patient is told his appetite for liquor is not his fault, since he was born with some X-factor in his blood or some other such explanation. Fine. Does that excuse him continuing to drink? Regardless of whether one wants to drink or not, continual imbibing of the spirits is destructive to the individual and to those around him. If indeed homosexuals cannot help their attraction, it by no means excuses them for continuing to pursue their unnatural desires.

Robert Kumpel said...

2) Heliocentrism was never condemned as heresy, nor was Copernicus condemned as a heretic. Galileo got himself in trouble by interpreting the scriptures to prove his theories (and he had much more in his writings than mere heliocentrism, much of which science has since disproved). Gallileo also published a fictitious dialogue between a character who held his views and a "fool" (who was a thinly disguised version of his own friend, the pope). Galileo was asked by Bellarmine to PROVE his theories, which he could not do at the time. However, his trial was based on his assertion that he had the authority to interpret the scriptures--ironically a Protestant position, given that Luther publicly called Copernicus a "fool". Galileo was never in any danger of torture and his "house arrest" was barely even that. Pope Urban VIII and many cardinals were his friends. However, Galileo DID NOT have the authority to twist the meaning of scripture any more than any other Catholic does. The Church was supporting most of the scientific research that took place at that time and to continue using Galileo to support this tired canard that the Church is the enemy of science is not just old, it's empty.

Anonymous said...

Secularism denies our spiritual selves. Succumbing to sexual desires is a normal event for the animal aspect of ourselves. homosexuality serves no purpose but to gratify the senses at best, or at worse to reduce the worth of the person to a mere object.

Secularism is evil because it goes beyond an the simple immature rationalisation of an act for the satisfaction of the person committing it to recruit the victims of the act to agree that the act was not hurtful. At least slaves are in chains. Victims of secularism recruit other victims.

The key is the choice of the person who makes the act. It may be a compulsion beyond control, or it may be bad choice that exposes a deep weakness, such as with alcoholism. Once the person knows he is an alcoholic it is incumbent on him to act against it, even while acknowledging it is very, very hard to control. He is not excused from trying.

The Church's problem with secularism and issues as we discuss here is that it does not want to turn away from anyone. People trapped by their senses will rationalise, as the alcoholic does, and exploit this rational, good, act to recruit the enabler and to continue their habit. It is very hard to accept that someone you love is choosing to turn away from God, but people do.

rcg

Anonymous said...

All of you who compare homosexuality to rapists, murderers, alcoholics, etc. have OBVIOUSLY not read any literature about homosexuality. Please do not comment on something you only know from the mainstream media or the pulpit, or just because you do not want homosexuals to have the same civils rights as all other Americans.

SqueekerLamb said...

Is there a homosexual out there who has chosen to live a celibate life as a lay person because he/she trusts His Church?

If so, we need to hear from him/her!
Did he/she find that graces came into his/her life and did he/she grow closer to Jesus by following the teaching of His Church?

pinanv525 said...

Anon#1, With regard to the "bigot" question, clearly you have no understanding of sarcasm. Also,I was not comparing homosexuality to rape, murder, pederasty, etc. My point is that if we try to normalize and excuse aberrant behavior by attributing it to genetics, then any aberrant behavior can be so excused. There are many factions who want to explain any and all aberrant or criminal behavior by saying it is "genetic." It is a slippery slope.

Now, I have a graduate degree in psychology and theology. I do not speak of homosexuality on the basis of something I heard from a pulpit. Homosexuality has become a protected aberrant behavior, a favorite resource and weapon for angry contrarian types who hate authority, the Church, structure of any kind, and middle class values. The Left, and it is usually the Left, have created their own mythology about homosexuality which they push aggressively. If you think it is normal and desirable behavior, pull up some videos of the big street festival they have in San Francisco every year with the full approval of the administration. Public nudity, bondage, transvestism, public sex, and perversity of every kind. You can stay closer to home and find it in Atlanta, as well. If you think this is normal and desirable behavior, then you have a problem.
There is some overlap between homosexuality and child porn and child sexual abuse. My daughter is a DA and she sees it often. We had several patients in the psych hospital where I worked who were both homosexual and pederasts. Of course, none of you do good social work types want to hear that. It kinda spoils your mythology. Oh, and yes, I am angry. I am angry at people who want to call abnormal "normal," who want to blame the Church for insisting upon moral behavior, and who label normal, married heterosexuals who insist on Christian values "bigots." If you are Catholic, my question is, "why?" Are you hanging around because you need an antagonist? Or, are you going to heroically throw yourself and your progressive righteousness against the structures of the Church in some kind of existential self-apocalypse? I'll be waiting with bated breath for your reply.

Robert Kumpel said...

It seems as though anonymous wants to have it both ways. If we say homosexuality is wrong because the Church teaches us so, then he tells us we are ignorant of science. If we dare to agree that perhaps there is a scientific explanation for it, just as there are for other deviations from the norm (and it cannot be denied that, statistically, homosexuality IS a deviation from the norm of sexual behaviors) then we know nothing about homosexuality and we automatically wish to deny a supposedly huge segment of our population its "civil rights". We are then accused of not having read any literature on homosexuality, which is absurd because everything in print (and on the screen) is shouting at us that homosexuality is just "another way" and it must be accepted. Perhaps it is because we have also read the literature of say, Fr. John Harvey or Dr. Joseph Nicolosi that angers him?

The point is, no matter what politically correct clinicians, media pundits and homosexual activists say, the real problem is that we have secularized ourselves so much that we (yes even many Catholics) accept it as a matter of fact that morality is subjective and changeable. Of course, Catholics cannot hold such a position. Morality is objective and unchanging, just as Jesus Christ is the same today as he was when He walked the earth and as He will be for eternity. We are not called to make our faith fit our desires. We are called to make ourselves conform to God's standards. We are a fallen race, but God loves us, regardless of race or sexual orientation or religious affiliation. For some reason, we just can't come to grips that He loves us too much to let us go on as we are. He requires us to become Holy like him. None of us are, but all of us should strive to be so.

Anonymous said...

pinanv525: I cannot hear sarcasm over the internet. I never said homosexuality was attributed to genetics, you did. I never said criminal behavior was due to genetics, you did. I never said I lived near Atlanta, or in Georgia for that matter, you did. Where did you come up with the idea I am a social worker? I never said that. In fact, I have degrees in Chemistry and Biology and postgraduate studies in Forensic Chemistry. You make a lot of assumptions about me without having any knowledge, just like you do with sexual orientation.
You seem to be obsessed with homosexuals and how "it is done." To quote you "bend over backwards" and "pederasts."
Too bad you cannot see homosexuals as beings created by God who were born with their sexual orientations.
It is people like you that make outrageous, inflammatory remarks about topics you have never bothered to research, that would drive away a conservative Catholic, like me, from the Church.
However, I will not allow a hateful, uninformed person, specifically you, drive me away. I love being a Catholic, I love attending Mass and receiving our Lord in the Holy Eucharist, and I love my son the way God made him.

SqueekerLamb said...

Civil rights bases on sexual orientation?

The chaos of the culture right now boils down to the fact that there is a pervasive 'for me' metality around the world. By and large people expect others to bend to their wants.
It's insidious and has infected the global mindset like a cancer.
Whether it's homosexuals creating an isue of 'I'm being discriminated against' or as actually happened yesterday, employees thinking I should change my whole office hours to suit their preferences, or couples divorcing because they refuse to change their habits so as to better serve theri families.
What ever happened to folks sucking it up and doing the RIGHT thing?

pinanv525 said...

One of you anonymouses (maybe those of you too shy or frightened to identify yourselves should assign yourselves a number) said that "the Church is slow to accept scientific findings and that "homosexuality is as normal as heterosexual..." That implies that you are defending homosexuality on the basis of genetics. In your latest reply, you state that "homosexuals are born with their sexual orientations." That sure sounds like genetics to me. Perhaps your vaunted scientific education was a bit short on logic.

My reference to closer to home and Atlanta was not referring to you. It was a general statement based upon my own location. You are being a bit concrete, don't you think. I don't care where you live.
It is the same with the social work/do good remark. I was referencing a mentality, not a profession. I also notice that you seem to want to imply that any criticism of homosexuality or any suggestion that it might be not only abnormal but socially unacceptable, disgusting, and obnoxious is homophobic or an "obsession." Pretty typical.

Once again, certainly homosexuals were created by God, and the Church prays for them and loves them as God's children. The Church does, however, condemn the behavior.

Frajm said...

There are four legs to catholic moral teaching on sex: scripture. Tradition, natural law and pastoral prudence. Church teaching reminds parents to love their children no matter what, to pray for themn lead them to the sacraments and to ask for divine mercy. A parent like God is to love a promiscuos child no less than the chaste one. Asking 9atholics to follow the teaching of Christin all things and to receive Christ worthily in the Church and thus receive salvation is an act of love, not hatred. Eternal life in heaven is a gift, it can never be imposed on us by God only received by us through proper Catholic formation, repentence and humility.

Anonymous said...

This argument has divergated into a discussion of homosexuality with arguments defending or attacking a certain attitude toward it. Looking back at the broader topic this demonstrates the trap of secularism. We would exhaust ourselves discussing the endless objections concerning homosexuality without acknowledging the larger principle of use of our wills and mastery of our animal natures.

These exact same arguments could be made about obesity, playing too many video games, and use of your money.

The most solid criticism of the Church in this regard is that it has allowed itself to be drawn into making proclamations in areas such as 'social justice' that are usually founded on good intentions, but are demonstrably false, thereby allowing its enemies to extrapolate that our foundations are also false. Such is the road to Hell.

Rather, we should note that the Church evolves in the secular world through faith filled reflection on observable facts. Thus it came to terms with Galileo, et al, several centuries ago. The foundations are unshaken. Yet through this evolution the Church has come to have faith in people and their ability to apply science successfully to science.

Hopefully, the Church will come to have the same faith that people can solve their economic and social problems without central planning.

The result, again hopefully, will be that more people will listen to Church teachings about such things as homosexuality without applying self-serving arguments simply to excuse a childish choice.

rcg

pinanv525 said...

RCG, "divergated...?" You must learn to proof-readerate. LOL!

Anonymous said...

pinanv525: Every time you post a comment in regards to one of my comments, you always attack me personally. This time you have snide remarks about my education.
You should watch your mouth in public. If I were in a coffee shop over-hearing you spew off at the mouth the way you do here in this blog, I would not go anywhere near a Catholic Church. It is someone as narrow-minded as you that gives the Catholic faith a bad name and why people are not flocking back to Church.

Pope Leo 13.5 said...

"Social Justice" is based on the Biblical teaching re: justice in general. It is not a "secualr" overlay that the Church has been drawn into, nor is the basis for our doctrine on social justice "false."

Popes and Bishops, who are given the charism of teaching authoritatively, establish our Church's doctrine. They have done so re: social issues.

For a rather challenging and compelling exposition to the Church's "Best Kept Secret" (doctrine on social justice) see "Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church" published by the Pontifical Council for Peace and Justice.

To deny that social justice is an essential element of the Catholic faith is to deny that Amos was a prophet. Beware,you "cows of Bashan..."

wmjack said...

I firmly believe that acting upon homosexual inclinations is a choice. Of the "homosexual" men that I personally have met, most are actually bisexual--many having children. It seems to me that if a man is capable of having children with a woman, then any overt homosexual activity is a choice.

Regarding statements such as homosexuals being "as God made"--Since homosexual contact can't produce children, and if homosexuality were genetic, then it would have died out long ago.

Anonymous said...

In my remarks when I said I love my son the way God made him, I am referring to my son being made in God's image and likeness, not some genetic abnormality that you refer to.

?? Altar Ego said...

I love reading the comments shall we all meet and allow me to listen while you guys go at it like the two fighters who duke it out in the ring! I know anonymous you love your 'son' whether he be heterosexual or not, he is your son. I read between the lines you have to defend him being homosexual. It must be exhausting! Having to be on your soap box all the time. You only have to defend your love for him not his sexuality! I am sorry but there is something wrong with the idea of two men (or two women) making love to one another... All other forms of life only have sex to propagate! We humans are the only ones who have sex for pleasure. So if we took the animal kingdom's ways to only propagate... their natural way is only female and male! My viewpoint in a nutshell. I may not have masters degrees and can't as eloquently put things the way you or the others have. The animals and insects know it (the natural order of life) so why don't humans know it.
I do have a gripe about your comment. Are you implying that Priests and higher up clergy do as they please. As far as what? What do they have secret rendezvous with women or God forbid MEN! or boys! WHAT! So these gentle men who dedicate their entire adult lives to our Church family have been stigmatized by some few pedophiles in the past are now all above the teachings and rules of the Church! Were you really trying to remove the focus from your son being homosexual? I call it the way I see it. You might be comfortable with your son now being homosexual but in the beginning the day he said Mom,Dad I'm gay! Your heart fell to your feet and because of your love for him you accepted him the way he is, and it hurts you because no matter how you feel about this your next door neighbor or even your 'church family' may never accept him as just being a man! I think the most heart wrenching aspect of the truth is 'The Church' will never condone what your son does in private. Sex without marriage is and always will be a sin. Your pain is felt, it's in your responses when the others came back at you with both barrels cocked! You are never going to change how others feel about your son, step down from your soap box now and let it be.

Anonymous said...

I am so very grateful that only our Almighty God will be the one to judge each and everyone of us at the end of time. I am even more overjoyed that pinanv525 will not be a judge. If it were up to pinanv525, everyone from the past, present and future that had a disagreement with "pin" would be condemned to Hell. Anon #2 agrees with anon #1 on your assessment of pinanv525. Not one word written by "pin" is worth reading. Those comments are the ramblings of a raving blabber mouth-nothing to back it up except hot air. I also do not care for the persoanl attacks. Only people that are insecure in themselves have to tear down others in order to build themselves back up.

pinanv525 said...

Anon, you began the personal attacks by calling me a bigot. I am not "spewing off," nor am I narrow-minded. You clearly belong to the crowd who believes that anyone who takes a moral stance or dares to suggest that certain behaviors and life-styles are sinful or aberrant is "mean, bigoted, racist, a Nazi, a redneck, a right wing loon, or (choose your epithet). This is so stereotyped it is becoming laughable.

So, let's see, all we have to do to get people back to the Church is be tolerant of any behavior, say nice things about everybody no matter their behavior, talk sweet, be passive, and have our spines removed...oh, ewwww, and don't dare say anything that might offend anyone at all. Why don't you become an Episcopalian? They don't much care what you do or believe...Hell, they don't even know what they believe.

Robert Kumpel said...

Since we are "divergatating" in other directions, let me point out that using the term "pedophile" with the sex abuse scandal is misleading and inaccurate, although we have been conditioned to think that way, based on the way the media and the USCCB has spun it. The fact is 84 percent of the victims were male. The majority of victims were adolescents. That's not pedophilia. No, that is something else altogether...think the "H" word.

It should also be noted that, sickening as the crisis is, a very small minority of priests were involved. Your children are far more likely to be molested by a public school teacher than by a Catholic priest. So why hasn't the statute of limitations been erased to sue public school districts? We all know why. It's the last acceptable prejudice in America.

Anonymous said...

Pin, you used the word bigot first. Please go back and read over your ramblings carefully. You really are not working with a full deck.

Anonymous said...

Altar Ego, I have never been on a soapbox as far as my views on homosexuality are concerned. In fact, this blog is the first time I have ever mentioned my son's sexual orientation ever, not to my mother, my siblings, nor my aunts, uncles or cousins or friends.
I thought this blog would be a good place to get a feel for how people in the Catholic community would react to this topic and I was right. It is a good thing I never said anything about it in public because I can see I would be verbally abused by the pinanv
525s of the world. I have known my son's sexual orientation for five and one half years.
I have never discussed my son with a priest, although I can see that only Frajm has the kindness and compassion it would take for me to dicuss my son with.
Also, Altar Ego, there have been studies done and it has been determined that homosexuality activity does indeed take place in the animal kingdom.
Also, Altar Ego, I do not think anyone should ever to try to predict what the Church will or will not do in the future. If science ever does find a gene, a mutation, a chemical imbalance, or a reason for nonheterosexuality, then the Church will have to apologize, AGAIN. Do not misunderstand me, I am not hoping that a scientific discovery happens. I accept my son. He is a very loving, kind, intelligent, sensitive, caring young man. He is in professional school and is an extremely high achiever. He loves animals, bike riding, traveling, he works out, he eats healthy, he cooks, he does his own laundry, he cares about the environment, he has not debt, he's the kind of guy every mom would love their daughter to bring home. Only that is not going to happen.
If he is lucky enough to find a significant other to spend his life with, I will celebrate them.

?? Altar Ego said...

I was trying to empathize with your having a homosexual son. You seem to have tip toed around too long the fact he is until this blog. Maybe I was wrong to assume you have been on a soap box however you certainly have been standing on one here.
I figured you would tell me other life forms too have homosexual tendencies when I wrote it. BAH!
Since you have asked people to re-read their comments. Please re-read mine. Did I make a prediction? It is a 'SIN' to have fornication. I believe only a marriage can occur between a man and woman. NOT man and man or woman and woman! Does the Church believe the way I do? Sex is wrong before marriage! Marriage between same sex persons? Science? You love your son! You protest too much! Your determination to justify his sexuality is clouded by the love you feel for your son! You dispute whatever anyone posts. You can deny it all you want, it's HIS pain you feel that causes you to defend his lifestyle, unfortunately most will not agree with his sexuality. I re-read everything you posted and you have to be this young man's Mother. Myself being a Mother knows with everything you have written here is; a Bear protecting her cub. I was trying to tell you you're never going to change the way people look at or feel about homosexuals. Even if someone does discover this Homosexual Gene you speak of it'll be the same as when they discovered the Fat Gene, ah he's fat because he over indulges in food!

Anonymous said...

Well, this post has generated some energy. I echo father's request for careful thought, concurrent with careful reading, of the posts. It is easy to see what you want if you don't see what you desire.

Anonymous said...

Hey alter ego, I like you (but not in that way.) You have actually made me chuckle once or twice with your comments. You are the kind of person that would at least listen to what someone else has to say. Pinhead would only yell and scream to make sure the pin point of view came across, end of story. As Frajm said, sexual orientation is a hot button topic.
When I said you made a prediction, I was referring to your comment that the Church will never change its stand on homosexuality. Never say Never.

Sarah said...

No, Kump, it is not "homosexual," it is ephebophilia.

It is a psychiatric disorder that affects straight and gay men and women.

"Blame the Gays" is, sadly, a comforting thought to some, for reasons known to them and, I hope, their confessors and therapists. But it is erroneous.

Anonymous said...

Sarah, Where did you come from? Have you read any of this before interjecting?

Anonymous said...

Hey Frajm. How's the weather in North Dakota? It is cloudy, rainy and rather gloomy where I am at. You better get home and post a new blog. This one has been very heated, as you can see.

Anonymous said...

I must come to Pinan's defense here. It is unpleasant to point out that homosexuality is not 'normal' and serves no constructive purpose. Parsing ephebophilia, or any other sexual problems, with it is either missing the point or dodging it. Sexual urges are very powerful and will, drug-like, drive us to rationalise doing things that hurt ourselves and others. I have had Catholic priests defend homosexuality to me because "at least they love each other". Our popular language uses the phrase 'making love' as if the sex act were one and the same as love.

With an urge this strong people are not going to forsake it because you lovingly tell them they should. Nor will they find the strength to fight it if you tell them how messed up it is to believe mutual genital stimulation is on par with mutual respect and love but that you will love them no matter what with no consequences.

We cry out, offended, to be told that what we desire is wrong. We hold ourselves hostage to etiquette so as to avoid confronting what everyone else sees.

Here is where the clergy must stand up and state the truth and expect to see some empty pews. At least at first. Saying that an act is wrong is not the same as saying person who does it is bad. We can start by pointing out that a person is not defined by their preferred sex acts or partners. This will disconnect the need to feel offended when you are told that a sex act is disordered.

rcg

?? Altar Ego said...

Anonymous! I am so happy you're smiling instead of grimacing! I have been known to be open-minded but I'm afraid I am not the norm! I am not normal! uh-oh look out! :-) All kidding aside I do love to come in here, when its on fire its HOT! You can't wait to read the next comment! Now when you comment here or on another post put initials so we know who you are! There are so many anonymous persons. Hey it could be PPOMS proud parent of my son. ;-) Have a blessed weekend Anonymous and everyone else too, especially you Fr McDonald. See you in Church Fr!

Anonymous said...

ALTAR EGO, You are the only one in this blog that has any sense. You have the sense of care, kindness, heart, whatever. I Love You.(not in that kind of way.)

Robert Kumpel said...

Actually, Sarah, I agree with you--mostly. The "E" word is so rarely used that most readers wouldn't know what it means in the first place. However, that said, homosexuality is ALSO a big part of the problem. When the majority are adolescent males--well, look at the predatory game plan: He's a teenage boy, he's the most unlikely to talk about it with others, and by the time he does get around to talking about it, the statute of limitations is past.

Like I said, throwing it all on the priests is unfair, because it's in any profession where there are a lot of young people. BUT...the Church in many dioceses could have done more to screen out homosexuals, but instead, the opposite happened in too many instances.

pinanv525 said...

Anon, Fr. did not publish my last post, although he did post your's saying I wasn't playing with a full deck and some other personal attacks which seem to be your main line of defense. You aren't paying attention because you do not like what I am saying. That is really too bad, but you don't really want to listen or understand. You want an audience and an antagonist and, typically, the homosexual agenda, through your moaning and groaning, is once again demanding everyone's attention. Just look at the number of posts in this thread. Discussions of the Holy Eucharist and the new Mass haven't garnered as much attention. Pretty typical of gays and their friends and supporters..."look at us, we're gay," "Oh, the Church is just so mean," "Ewww, talk about us, we're gay and loving it."
You know what? I'm glad this is your burden and not mine. LOL! That's the l;ast I have to say to you.

Anonymous said...

OMG, ALTAR Ego, you are a God- send. No offense Father McDonald.
Altar Ego brings a sincere opinion to this "table." You have the opinion of innocence, care, concern, and you are not judgemental. I love you, but not in that way. I will be able to sleep tonight because you are a very special person who does not judge people.

Seeker said...

I think you have a live one there Fr. Time to pull in the net!

Anonymous said...

Robert, with all due respect, your comments here are going unnoticed. You seem to be legitimate in your knowledge and what you have to say, but this subject matter is way over your head. Unless you are a Mother, a Father, or in the same ballpark as pinanv525, you should just sit this one out, with all due respect.

Anonymous said...

Pinanv525, Shutup. You have nothing of value to say.

?? Altar Ego said...

Awww Anonymous thanks for the compliment. I do love reading the debates here! Fr's blog is great; once in a great while it fuels my appetite when the talks get heated! I got so full today, but before I turned in I had to have one more bite! Thank you. I had to make my last comment lighthearted when you said I made you chuckle! I have been on this Earth a long time. I am of a unique generation. 'Make Love Not War' 'Flower Power' 'Keep the Faith' We used to chant this instead of good-bye. None of my friends ever thought it pertained to having faith in the belief of Christ. We were young what did we know!
Lesson one in life do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's the Golden Rule isn't it?

"We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give." - Winston Churchill

It was instilled in me growing up it was better to give than to receive! I'm glad you recognized I was sending you an unbiased, unconditional message, a message to maybe love if you will. I am smiling!

Robert Kumpel said...

Anonymous:

Thank you for putting me in my place, as indeed I do tend to get carried away and a little dressing-down does me good once in a while.

I would point out, however, that at last YOU noticed my comments. While they may not be as interesting as the ongoing exchange between Pinanv525 and the college of anonymous', i just wanted to point out the truth of the sex abuse scandal, because it is still being presented as something it was not.

But again I thank you and I will bow out. Perhaps I AM in over my head. However, I would point out that my head is one of the few that at least has a name on it.

Anonymous said...

I had a great night of sleep last night. Which is a good thing because I did not sleep at all the night before.
I still have some thoughts that I would like to comment on.
I would like to respond to what wmJack had to say. Your very first remark "homosexuality is a choice" is false. If you took a psychology class with a true or false question: Homosexuality is a choice, and you mark it true, your answer would be wrong. If it was the only question on the test, you would have failed the test. (just kidding.)
As to your comment that you know homosexuals that are actually bisexual, I would believe you. There are heterosexulas, homosexuals, bisexuals, and transgenders.
Did you know human beings can be born as hermaphrodites? If you are not familiar with the term, please get out your dictionaries. Did you also know Jamie Lee Curtis was born a hermaphrodite? Her parents decided to make her, physically, a girl. I do not know if Jamie Lee Curtis is a lesbian or not, but what if her parent's decision to make her a girl was wrong? What if Jamie Lee Curtis is actually a heterosexual man trapped in the body of a woman, and is attracted to women? Does that make her a lesbian? Would the Catholic Church have to use an asterisk about homosexuality as it pertains to human beings born hermaphrodites?

Vianney1100 said...

I would suggest that all go to the NARTH.COM website to read up on the causes of homosexual tendencies, or better stated, same sex attraction. What you will learn is that it has several biological and environmental roots, and biological does not mean a gay gene. Having a "gay" brother recently "come out", I have read many of the articles on this site and found them to be enlightening. I believe you all will as well especially if you read about the factors that go into same sex attraction. You will be able to go back over the years and see how this played out in your family and will have more of a scientific rational as to why this happened.
I have seen the reactions of my own mother and other mothers to their son's lifestyle. Is it any wonder why this is considering our culture's constant drum beat that gays are the ultra-victim and conservatives, especially Catholics are the ultra-bullies.
I feel for those, anonymous as well, who have sons or brothers as I do, who suffer with this. However, as the Church constantly has taught, we must love them as we would all who have inherent human dignity but we must not love the sin. I love my brother but I do not love the sin that is destroying him. In other words, we must not confirm anyone in their sin no matter what it is.
Anonymous, I know you love your son, probably even more than I love my brother, but love him enough by praying for him that our Lord Jesus Christ, who performed many healings, will heal him in whatever way he wills. And remember that those who may seem to be spewing "hate" have themselves been attacked and tarred by the media/culture machine that seeks to destroy the Church and her moral authority.

Frajm said...

I've had to delete some comments tgat are uncharitable and thus disordered! Because of original sin that thus leads to actual sin, we're all disordered and this includes motives for our human relationships and romances not to mention sexual appitites, no matter our orientation. Jesus gave us the Church to continue his ministry of love and salvation to us poor miserable sinners. The problem with the seclarizing influence on Catholics is the fundamental denial of both original and actual sin and its damning consequences in our lives. This leads to the denial of personal culpability in rejecting Church teaching in the area of sex acts (not orientation, as that goes beyond personal choice). The antidote to all sin is acknoelegement of sin, repentance and sacramental absolution and reconciliation with Christ and his Church. As far as the Church teaching is concerned, having homosexual sex, or any sex outside of marriage is no more sinful then missing Mass on Sunday with full consent of the will when one could have attended. All sin, sexual and otherwise, diminishes the common good and works against the love of Christ, what is called charity, the lack of which is part of our disordered nature. Are we culpable for our disorder or just for the personal acts against charity illistrated in some of the comments above? Or do we ignore what the Churtch and Christ teach even in this area of our lives? The seamless garment of Catholic teaching and Catholic morality and ethics unravela in our lives when we reject the splendor of truth that applies to each of us in an objective way. So repent and believe the truth which is Good News.

Anonymous said...

Hi Robert. I appreciate your comments on the sexual abuse scandal. By the way I am anon#1. I would never have made the comment I made about the clergy had it not been for the Pinhead lumping homosexuals in with rapists, murderers and thieves.

I have a very deep respect for priests and sisters alike.

When I finally read your posts, they have a very calming and soothing effect.

I would very much appreciate to read any comments you still would like to make regarding what is being posted here.

P.S. Sorry the whole Galileo thing bored you.

Frajm said...

Sorry for all the misspelling in my comments just have my blackberry to do this! Leaving Minot at 11 central time back in Macon by 7 pm I hope. They've has temps in the 60's day time and 20's at night and sunny!

Anonymous said...

Vianney100, thank you for your comments. Another website for anyone that would like to be enlightened about sexual orientation is pflag.org.(Parents for lesbians and gays.) It has books, pamphlets and videos that are truly helpful.
I do love my son. I would also like to say he does not smoke or drink alcohol. He has more control over his being than most people I know.

I will name myself pflag.

Anonymous said...

Now you all know that 'Divergate' is a real word.

There does not have to be a single motivation for a person to perform a homosexual act. Performing a homosexual act does not make a person 'gay', just ask anyone in a prison.

Some people may be internally compelled to commit a homosexual act. Those people have a problem that is mental or physical. Some people will try out various sex practices because they do not have a value system that elevates themselves above an object of their own physical satisfaction.

It would be nice to establish a policy that would include every possible situation, but this is beyond human ability. That is the purpose of doctrine: to establish a system for dealing with the new. That makes it unnecessary to set a policy for the masses that addresses their individual characteristics.

Now, as for the comment about a man trapped in a woman's body: I am beginning to suspect we are the victim of a 'troll'. Whatever Ms Curtis' physical problems are, they are anomalies, and do not represent a latent sexual flexibility that would suit our baser natures. If they do present an increased desire to copulate with whomever suits our fancy it would be more logical to consider that part of the anomaly rather than some normal remnant. "Sexual' reassignment is simply an technologically advanced form of oppression related to Roman eunuch sex slaves. Consider that if a person were to graft antlers onto their head no reasonable person would consider them to have become a deer.

We are working way too hard to prove something. That is also evidence that this is unnatural.

rcg

Frajm said...

Thanks rcg for the comment. I think many well meaning people today confuse love with enablement. I know many parenys in this boat. At the same time though, I reccomend parents to stay out of their adult children's sex lives and only give sound advice based on Church teaching when asked for advice!

?? Altar Ego said...

I have this need to know?? 62? Are the amount of posts here a record? Happy you're on your way home Fr have a restful night and a blessed weekend! :-)

Anonymous said...

It truly is hard to be Catholic. There are so many thoughts and ideas that we are just expected to accept without explanation.
Take the birth of Christ. Mary had never had relations. The power of the Holy Spirit impregnated her. (The word pregnant is in the Bible.) I will accept that. But how did this happen? Did God send down the Holy Spirit with a fertilized egg? I know, everything is possible with God.(As an aside, during that time in history, it was believed that the man's sperm contained the whole child. No knowledge of sperm and egg. The purpose of the woman was to supply a nice place for the baby to develop. The Jewish tribe was small and struggling to increase its numbers. That's why masturbation was deemed a sin because it was "wasting" a child and also considered murder.) Sorry, I digressed. Jesus came to earth in human form so he could live as a human. It just seems his birth would have been human. But we are told Jesus came from Mary's side. She didn't have a c-section. There were no doctors present. It's a mystery.

We are told the Holy Trinity is a mystery.

I have been told by Catholics not to believe everything you read in the Bible, I have been told not to take it literally, but it seems in Church we are asked to accept some of it literally and some of it not.

I saw a cartoon once where Moses was descending the mountain with the two huge stone tablets containing the ten commandments. Unfortunately, Moses had dropped the third tablet with the other five commandments.

Just a little levity.

Anonymous said...

If he takes the bus he'll have a chance to meet some of the folks who responded to this thread.

rcg

SqueekerLamb said...

As I mentioned at the beginning of this conversation: The second to last paragrph of Father's post may be the most important one.
Name the issue...it holds true!

"The antidote to this hyper-secularizing influence upon Catholics is the truth of Jesus Christ taught in the Bible and Catechism, Sunday Mass, daily prayer and devotions, frequent confession and a strong sacramental life. In these experiences of Church, we encounter Jesus Christ who alone will save us from sin and hell. "

Kind of that glad I was too busy to check in for a day or so.
I hope anonymous with a homosexual son has the strength to gently guide his son to live by the teachings of the Church..to show real love for his son.
There are many difficult challenges that we must pass through along the way to holiness...the avoidance of sex is the harldy the most difficult!..that son will eventually see that if he hasn't already.

Bill Meyer said...

Father, I am a catechumen, soon to be 62. The background is a long story, but I was raised with Catholic beliefs, though unbaptized. Catholic mother, Lutheran father, and a priest who apparently tried (foolishly) to coerce my father into the Church, holding my baptism hostage.

Anyway, I have now been formally a catechumen for four years, while awaiting my annulment (33 months) and that of my wife (about 26 months, I think, and counting) in an archdiocese where the Tribunal proudly proclaims a 12 month average for processing annulment cases.

I am a parishioner at a church filled with 'spirit of Vatican II' folks, few of whom have read any of the V-II documents. I am by no means an expert, but I have studied Sacrosanctum Concilium, and read three of the others. I will continue, and will also continue to read competent commentary on the V-II documents.

However, the 'spirit' folks have overrun the parish policies and practices. We rarely hear a hymn older than 25 years, and only half of them Catholic, at that. The tabernacle is in the chapel, not behind the altar of the church, despite the archdiocesan norms.

Our catechists hold Fr. Richard Rohr to be their favorite 'theologian'.

I have wanted to hang on at the parish until my baptism and confirmation. I do respect the pastor there, who labors to move the parish in more traditional directions. But it becomes harder each week.

I habitually arrive well before the start of Mass, to have time for prayer and reflection, after purging the drive time thoughts from my mind. The sanctuary is noisy--most of the noise coming from the choir (not singing, but carrying on as though it were the parish hall). We get announcements during, or in place of, the homily.

It is a difficult place to remain.

Anonymous said...

Hi Vianney100, I can tell it was hard for you to talk about your brother. But, please do not distance yourself from him and put him out of your life. He needs you now more than ever.
I was going through some of my information, and I recommend you stay away from NARTH. This group recommends sexual reorientation and operates outside the mainstream scientific understanding of homosexuality. Sexual conversion has already been shown not to work. Go to pflag.org.

Vianney1100 said...

It is interesting that the last two posts are related in a way that none of you could know. I was a member of a parish exactly as Bill describes. The priest there rammed Richard Rohr down our throats. Rohr is a priest who promotes all sorts of things that go against the Church including the Enneagram and other weird New Age practices. He also holds contrary views on sexual matters to those of the Church. Our parish also promoted PFLAG as Anonymous has recommended and some on the staff are members. We have since left that parish for one that is on fire with the truth of the Church and does the Novis Ordo the way it was intended by the VII Council. We are so much happier here.
Believe me, I have done much research on the subject of homosexuality since my brother “came out”. This is why I have recommended NARTH since it is much closer to the Church’s teaching than PFLAG. The members of NARTH actually use the scientific method rather than what some others have used and whose research has been found to be fraudulent. There are several ways to treat same sex attraction, some of which include reorientation. Of course, the success rate is not 100%, no type of psychological treatment is. However, success there is, just ask someone who has been able to change their life around, and there are many. The proof that these methods are valid is in the lives that have been changed.
As for my brother, he has actually been the one who has put distance between us. Through the power of prayer though, I have been able to start to bridge the gap he had placed between us. It is only through the Holy Spirit, and the words that he has placed on my tongue with the patience and understanding that he has granted me that progress has been made. Relying on myself would have made it an ugly mess. The Holy Spirit works with love and truth, caritas en veritate as our pope says. I love my brother enough to speak with him in love and truth, not one without the other. Anonymous, I would recommend the love and truth of the Church and not love without truth of PFLAG. Spend time at Eucharistic Adoration imploring Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament to help both you and your son. Open up your heart to him and let him take your burden onto his shoulders.

Mackja said...

This has been a spirited debate to be sure, from my observations, we have those who defend, believe, and strive to follow and put into practice our faith as received from Holy Mother Church, and then there are those who feel the Church is out of touch with reality, that it’s clergy want to impart demands on the faithful, but not on themselves. It is typical of those who dissent from orthodox teaching to make accusations about those who believe orthodoxy as being intolerant, judgmental, or holier than thou. I observe this to be because the dissenter does not want to realize the guilt, and sinfulness of there positions.
(I will now be called a bigot and intolerant, and closed mined) While many of the issues we face today are not always black and white, weather one makes the decision to be obedient to Christ and His Church or not is. While I myself have wrestled with some teaching of the Church, I have never rejected them, but strived to understand, through prayer and reason, why she teaches what she does, and eventually I have accepted them as the way God intends us to live as the human society he created. Homosexuality can in no way be justified as normal behavior, it cannot be reasoned, anthropologically, biologically, or through the understanding of natural law, because the action is counter to the reason we have the ability to procreate in the first place, to bring fourth life, any sexual activity that cannot bring about life has to be looked at as disfigured. There is no doubt that homosexual people have not been treated well by society in the past, Christians have not acted as they should towards homosexual individuals or groups, but that does not change the facts that it is still a disfigured activity. Charity must prevail, but so must truth, sometimes the truth hurts or is difficult, trying to change the truth to suit individual likes, makes truth become a lie. Yes Christ loves us all, Saints and Sinners alike, but he suffered and died so we could become Saints, and live with him in eternity. The Church and Christ are the same now and forever, in this way there is only one truth that is the same now and forever, conforming to this truth is not easy, the world does not like the truth, the world is relativistic, and today follows the Machiavellian mantra “the end justifies the means”. The Church has lived through these issues before, she has studied human nature for 2000 years, she knows the consequences mankind will suffer from the rejection of truth, and the wages of sin.

Anonymous said...

Mackja, Having read through your discourse, the first things I noticed were your lack of using proper English: "there" rather than "their", "mined" rather than "minded", "weather" rather than "whether", and "fourth" rather than "forth." Pubelic school education?????
Yes, couples that are a man and a woman, have the ability to procreate, but what about the couples that are unable to have children, couples who are too old to have children, couples who CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN and make sure that never happens. Are these okey? It's okay for them to love each other, even though they will never bear children from the relationship.
A gay couple, two men, are more often ready to adopt a developementally disabled child than a man/female couple.
I do not think procreation really has anything to do with why marriage has to be a man and a woman. I think the Catholic Church just wants to put demands on the flock that are unrealistic.

pinanv525 said...

Anonymous, Whut??!!!??

Mackja said...

Thank you for your astute observation of my grammar, now if you could only understand how stupid your post is we could get some where. It is clear by your initial attack on me that you must be a progressive dissenter who does not follow the teachings of the Church. Left wing liberals always attack when their positions cannot be reasoned. Your statement lacks logic and common sense reasoning. If a man and woman cannot have children or are to old to have children has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. The issue is that they participate in the natural act that is required to brings about life, something the homosexual act cannot do, that is why it is disfigured. Now if you care to base your argument on a philosophical, anthropological, biological reasons, or if you can build a case based upon natural law I will listen, but sense you nor anyone else cannot, you argument is pointless, and does not hold water.

Mackja said...

Anon, here you go on the birth control issue, how you can consider yourself to be Catholic or Christian is beyond me. If you support natural means of birth control then I will rescind my statement, but my gut tells me you support artificial birth control. It is simple, if you believe that God is the giver of life, and that the ability to bring fourth life is a gift from God, then it is obvious why artificial birth control is wrong. God gives us this gift, birth control says, God I don't want your gift, which is a rejection of God. Now I know this will infuriate you, but that is the facts, truth hurts.

Anonymous said...

The pope needs to STAY OUT OF THE BEDROOM. What two people do there is NOBODY'S business. Especially someone who has never had sex, namely the pope. Or, should we never say never. That is a vote for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike.

pinanv525 said...

Attacking someone's grammar as a way to ignore their argument is like telling the guy who is mugging you that his shirt tail is out...

pinanv525 said...

Anon, I happen to know Mack, and he is intelligent, articulate, devout, and has forgotten more Church doctrine and catechetics than you or I know now. Work hard to catch up..or you can remain in "grammar school...."

Anonymous said...

Pinanv525, Your little "grammar school" pun was cute. I am sure Mackja is a very smart man.
I come from a rather large Catholic family. There are seven of us. My mother's sister had nine children. Another sister had six children. The saying was, "Oh, you are from one of those big Catholic families." One of my female cousins got married in her early thirties and was a little worried she may not have children due to her age. She came from a family of six. My uncle, her father, said to her "Don't worry, all I had to do was drop my pants and your mother got pregnant." My uncle was a very devout Catholic, said the rosary three times a day, received a purple heart, went to Northwestern University and earned his CPA.
Now, how many truly big Catholic families are there any more? You would have to be extremely naive to believe all the families with only one, two, three or four children use natural means for birth control.

pinanv525 said...

Anonymous, so what is your point? Are you suggesting that the disobedience of large numbers of Catholic families is a condition for changing Church policy? "The Pope said today from the Vatican that, because there are no longer any large Catholic families, you can all start using rubbers."

Anonymous said...

pinanv525, Where did I make that last statement? My point is there are plenty of Catholic families that do not practice natural birth control. Otherwise there would be more Catholic families with more children.
I was not correcting Mackja's grammar. I was correcting his usage of words. If you were to look up each word he used incorrectly in a dictionary, what he has to say makes absolutely no sense. I am using the word "sense" here correctly, however, where Mackja used it it was incorrect. He should have used the word "since."

Anonymous said...

Mackja, You know how I can consider myself Catholic? Because I ask God for forgiveness of my sins. Just because I do not happen to agree with the Church's teachings on homosexuality and birth control does not make me a bad person. I believe those are the only two things in the Catholic faith I have a problem with.
You and pinanv525 want everyone that does not follow every law of the Catholic Church to the letter, to leave the Church. Not only that, you do not even want them to be part of any Christian faith.
Again, God loves all his people, why can't you?
Mackja, what you said does not hurt me nor infuriate me. I guess I just decided I have a different point of view on a couple of topics.

Anonymous said...

I attended a dinner once with about ten couples, husbands and wives. We were the only Catholic couple. I was the youngest wife there. My daughter would be leaving for college in the Fall. One of the other wives, who always thought she had something to instruct me on because she was older, and therefore, wiser, made the remark to me "Be sure you get your daughter on birth control before she goes off to school." I answered "Why would I do that?"
I was looked at like I had horns sprouting out of my head. I was asked why I would not do that and I said,"Because we are Catholic and do not believe in pre-marital sex." They all said, you have got to be kidding.
One woman's daughter got pregnant in college. The wise one had a daughter who was so intelligent, B.S., M.S., PhD from Stanford University, had trouble finding someone as smart as she and was compatible with her in bed.
However, I stood my ground, and did not get birth control for my daughter when she went off to college. What she does now is none of my business.

Anonymous said...

Oh Mackja, I attacked you because you do not know the English language? I am very sorry. It wasn't supposed to be an attack. I guess you cannot take a little light-hearted criticism very well.

pinanv525 said...

Sarcasm, Anon, look it up. So, then, let me get this straight...anyone who asks God for forgiveness of their sins qualifies as a Catholic? That's fantastic! Wait until I tell all my Baptist and Presbyterian friends...
No, anon, it does not mean you are a bad person.
No, Anon, I do not want everyone who does not follow every law of the Church to the letter to leave. You are being deliberately dense. However, rather than pridefully parade our disagreements with the Church publicly in discourse and on forums, it would seem to me to be more appropriate to keep them to ourselves, confessing that we are struggling with our disobedience and seeking understanding. The polemical nature of your discussion, and that of others on the BLOG who are in your camp, indicate to me that you feel you are right and the Church is wrong. If I have a disagreement with Church policy or teaching, I prefer to consider my position as one of a "confesional struggle" for which I need the prayers and assistance of other Catholics and my Priest. My fall back position is always that the Church will ultimately be proven to be right.

pinanv525 said...

Of course, Anon, you are disagreeing with two of the most fundamentally life-affirming teachings of the Church. So, if you disagree with the Church on birth control, how about abortion? I mean, isn't it the same issue? And, what about the Church's position on murder (those pesky Commandments)? Do you receive at Mass? Does that not at least raise the issue of bearing false witness (professing publicly that you are in a state of grace while openly advocating birth control, homosexuality, etc.) and taking the Lord's name in vain (calling upon God in the prayers of the Mass while in fundamental conflict with His Church)? I mean, I'm just sayin'....

Anonymous said...

Mackja, As for your use of the word "stupid" I must respond. I understand Catholic theology just as well as you do, I just have a couple of little things I do not agree with. However, I am at least able to use the English language and express myself appropriately. Which means I am smarter than you. Gotcha.

Anonymous said...

pinanv525, Birth control and abortion are NOT the same thing.
When couples use birth control, it is to prevent the sperm from fertilizing the egg, therefore, no conception. (In natural birth control, the man and woman try to figure out when the woman is ovulating, and if they do not want to conceive, they do not have sex at that time and HOPEFULLY they do not.) Now you must know what an abortion is. It is the induced termination of a pregnancy. Two very scientifically different things.
I am OPPOSED to abortion.
I listed homosexuality and birth control as the two topics I struggle with, there was NO etc. And again, you make things up like I believe in murder, and that I use God's name in vain (sometimes by accident) and that I bear false witness. My, my how you do like to judge others.
I DID NOT say anyone who asks God for forgiveness is Catholic. You sure do like to twist things around.

Anonymous said...

Mackja, I really do understand the Catholic Church's teaching as it pertains to homosexuality and birth control. I know that the Catholic Church says they are both wrong.I just do not happen to agree.

pinanv525 said...

Anon, you said, "You know how I can consider myself Catholic? Because I ask God to forgive me of my sins." Hmmmmm.....looks like you said it to me. I refer to your post above.
Abortion and birth control both prevent life. Some types of birth control are abortifacients. The principle is the same.
I have not judged you at all, Anonymous, I was simply raising questions that I thought were worth your consideration. Bearing false witness is a little more encompassing than simply telling a lie, and taking the Lord's name in vain is a tad more than yelling, @$#***&@!!!!! when you stub your toe. Think a little more broadly.
You are, in fact, the only person on here calling names and making judgements.
So, you say "those are the only two topics I struggle with." It seems to me you are not struggling at all but are well convinced you are right and trying to get people to agree with you.
You did not answer my question about whether you receive or not. I'd be interested to know if you do. If so, do you confess your disagreement everytime before you receive? If you do, then you know full well that after you receive you will still be in disagreement. Does that give you pause? That would make for some good discussion.

Mackja said...

Anon, I freely admit grammar was never a strong point for me in school (I drove my mother crazy, she was an English major) it just did not get excited. I am how ever knowledgeable in history, humanities and the Catholic Church. When I make a statement of doubt of your catholicity, it is to strike a cord, to move you to think about your position that is in opposition to the faith. Natural law gives us clear insight to the purpose of male and female, the reason in nature is to reproduce, this function in nature is supported or supplemented by the divine law, for God is the author of all nature found in creation. While independent of each other, natural law and the divine or moral law are inseparable. The purpose of procreation is to propagate the species so it can continue to survive. Any sexual act that cannot continue the species is disfigured because it cannot carry out its primary purpose. Homosexuality endangers humanity; humanity ceases to exist in that context. So it is obvious to reason the homosexuality is disfigured, that is a profound truth that the Church has been teaching for 2000 years.

I find a huge difference when an individual outwardly rejects and openly defies Church teaching, and someone who is struggling to understand, and questions to seek understanding of the truth. Your position has gone from were you do not agree and reject the teaching of Christ as revealed to His Church, to one of struggle. We all struggle, we all ask questions, but it is a requirement of being a Christian that we conform to His will, and not our will. Our Lord has revealed to His Church His divine truth, acceptance is not an option, but a requirement. Yes as I stated in my earlier post God loves all, saints and sinners, but what did he say about salvation. That if we believe in Him we shall be saved, that means all, everything, the whole enchilada, this is not the Piccadilly cafe where I can pick and choose. Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through an eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom of heaven. So he loves us, we must respond to that love with faith and fidelity. If you are struggling with an issue then go to your priest or a good orthodox priest and ask him to help you understand, pray and ask our Lord to show you the Fathers purpose for our life and all of humanity. I would suggest you read some of Saint Augustine, and Saint Thomas Aquinas to gain a deeper insight of natural and divine law.

I will state again Christians and society as a whole have not treated the homosexual person with the dignity given to them by God, but that does not mean we just compromise the truth, so we can make ourselves feel better.

Pax Christi

Mackja said...

Pinanv525, thanks for the complement, I am struggling and learning everyday, and with God's Grace I will persevere till the end.

Again thanks.

Anonymous said...

Natural birth control is exactly what it says. It is a form of BIRTH CONTROL, and the one method that is least likely to work.
Why is it that the Catholic Church promotes natural birth control and not all the others?

Frajm said...

The issue isn't birth control, but the type of birth control. A better description would be family planning which the church does not oppose. It's the method of family planning. The church's teaching on artificial birth control derives from natural law. It is not permissible morally, to change nature by mechanical or artificial means. Natural law tells us that the act of natural sexual intercourse has two purposes within heterosexual marriage, first the unitive meaning the expression of physical love culminating in sexual intercourse and procreative. By nature the sex organs of male and female are complimentary to bring about these two expressions. To artificially change the procreative aspect while actually having sexual intercourse changes natural law and what God intended for this act. Natural birth control doesn't do that. It is based upon abstaining from sexual intercourse during the fertile period of of the women. There are several sophisticated ways to determine the fertile period of a woman and many men and women who can go without sexual intercourse for a seven to ten day period or more. The Church does not see this abstinence for a seven to ten day period as unnatural. Thus using this natural method of family planning in no way does one use a mechanical or artificial way to prevent conception, thus each time one has sexual intercourse it is completely natural without hindering through medication, mechanical devices, surgery or whatever, what God intended for this act. Thus natural family planning opens people to the gift of life if pregnancy occurs in the natural course of events. A child is seen as a gift, not a curse. Fr. McDonald

Templar said...

I have been away far too long. Changes to my life have curtailed the amount of time I have to be on the Blogs and I am sad to see that there are "trolls in the wire" here at Southern Orders.

Immorality leads to sexual perversion. Once you start down the path you open yourself up to all manner of new perversion, as the purpose of sex becomes to have it, and not to use it as God intended. Sex for the purpose of pleasure is slefish, like all sin, and becomes like an addiction. Not interested in the Science of sexual disorders, they're all immoral period, and those who suffer from them must remain chaste or they imperial their immortal souls. Period.

Coming late to the fray, but my banner shall be planted on Pin's, mackja's, rcg's and robert's hill. These anon trolls do the Devil's work here, proclaiming scandal as normal.

And none of this means a Father shouldn't love his son. Love the sinner, HATE the sin.