‘Traditionis Custodes’ One Year Later, Brings New Pastoral Realities and Challenges
MONEY BYTE:
Hilary Tucker, a member of Savannah’s traditional Catholic community, told the Register that the young adults she knows have been reading the Council and have brought “fresh eyes” to Vatican II. She noted their celebration of the 1962 Missal actually responded to what the official texts of Vatican II’s pastoral constitution on the liturgy called for: pride of place for Gregorian chant, attentive participation in the Mass, learning liturgical Latin and bringing renewed reverence and solemnity to the liturgy.
“It’s a Vatican II parish — but maybe Vatican II is turning out differently than we expected,” she said.
Bishop Parkes explained that pastorally providing for Catholics attached to the 1962 Missal is also a call for real pastoral accompaniment. He encouraged bishops and clergy to listen and learn from Catholic faithful what they value in those older liturgical forms.
“We must meet people where they are at.”
28 comments:
"Bishops seeking to faithfully fulfill the Pope’s call for greater regulation of the traditional Latin Mass are grappling with tough decisions that have real pastoral consequences."
"...to faithfully fulfill..." Splitting infinitives was not intended by Vatican Two...
"...attentive participation in the Mass...." Attentive? Where does that come from?
I suspect that the report was transcribing what the Ms. Tucker was saying. Pedestrian English, when spoken, often is not as grammatically correct as it should be when written. Splitting infinitives is quite common and I think we can say that doing so is an organic development of the English language, which is still living (did I split something there?) and moving forward rather than backwards as the current pontiff likes to say or should I say likes saying it?
Actually, I like attentive participation. One who sings and says all the parts the Mass may well be an atheist who likes to participate in the spoken and sung parts of the Mass, but is he attentive to what he is saying and singing and does he believe it?
No, attentive participation is faithful participation and a deaf/mute might do so more effectively and efficiently and attentively than a person with hearing and speaking!
Actual participation is what Vatican II should have used in English rather than active participation. We need to change that since as many believe doctrine and words develop!
Splitting infinitives is, sadly, quite common. So is typing "your" instread of "you're," "I had saw" instead of "I had seen," and "I" where "me" would be the correct usage.
They're all wrong.
"Attentive participation" is cute, but a twisting of the text. Nice try, but no ceegar.
"Pedestrian English" is meaningless. Are we to tolerate "Pedestrian Math?" When I talk about addition, I might say that two plus two equals five, but when I write it down, I say that two plus two equals four?
My heart is broken or broken is my heart, that your still living in the past, going backwards, as it concerns English and Math and we might as well throw in spelling too. Today, truth is dependent and only dependent on the person who claims this, it is particularly a dogmatic truth that one embrace his/her/or/whatever gender or no gender that person professes as well as other personal truths. I understand, as I am with it, that your truth is backwards, but nonetheless, it is your truth and I respect that. God bless you or is it God blesses you and you’res.
I always enjoy when John Nolan swoops in and corrects Father K's grammatical errors.
"Today, truth is dependent and only dependent on the person who claims this, it is particularly a dogmatic truth that one embrace his/her/or/whatever gender or no gender that person professes as well as other personal truths."
"Saying things that don't make sense but pretending they do."
Thank you for proving my point - again.
"Attentive participation" is cute, but a twisting of the text. Nice try, but no ceegar."
Agree. How many types of participation are we to create??
I've always understood "pedestrian" to reference something less refined, uninspiring. Not following the reference here.
I suppose Bishops and pastors have a challenge: To fulfill requirements, or to charitably accommodate the spiritual needs of those effected. Seems that both might not be possible if the decree is interpreted as written. It is a shame that this is the reality.
TJM said...
"I always enjoy when John Nolan swoops in and corrects Father K's grammatical errors."
Yes, putting all those degrees to good use. How many did he inform us he has?
I enjoy it when Fr. MJK swoops in and puts your arrogant, snide, rude self in its place. From where did this sense of entitlement originate? And on Sunday, no less.
Pick on me, TJM. I'm still waiting...
The following demonstrates the destructive, extreme, out-of-control behavior of leading Catholic blogosphere/twitter "traditionalists" — nasty radtrads — who hijacked/ruined Summorum Pontificum...who have all but ruined the situation for decent, holy Catholics attached to the TLM:
On July 15, 2022 A.D., Bishop Stephen Parkes delineated his implementation of Traditionis Custodes.
The following day, New Catholic (Rorate Caeli) denounced Bishop Parkes' implementation in question as:
"What a bunch of sugary nonsense. What condescending syrup of piffle!...unfaithful bishop...cowardliness...lack of of character hidden behind worthless cotton candy words...Simply pathetic, Bishop Parkes."
Conversely, as reported by the National Catholic Register, Bishop Parkes said in regard to his decision in question:
"I take these things to prayer first of all,” he said. I put it in the hands of the Holy Spirit."
John Brenton, a member of the community that had participated in the TLM Mass at Savanah’s cathedral, said that Bishop Parkes "has been “nothing but charitable and loving in his interaction with us in person. He visited us and sat ‘in choir’ with us for Mass. It was a very meaningful moment for us."
New Catholic (Rorate Caeli)...(not to mention additional radtrad bloggers/twitter folks)...spewed venom at Bishop Parkes...reacted in hateful, Satanic fashion.
Conversely, John Brenton, who is close to the TLM scene at the Cathedral, praised Bishop Parkes as having interacted in loving fashion with those attached to the TLM.
The National Catholic Register article continued...
Alex Begin, executive producer of EWTN’s Extraordinary Faith, explained that while every community has its “cranks,” the loud, toxic voices online claiming affiliation with the TLM community represent only themselves.
They do not represent the Catholics who have dedicated time, talent, and treasure to build living Catholic communities around the older Roman Rite, and have the most to lose by not cultivating positive relationships needed to sustain them within their dioceses.
“The people who are ‘keyboard warriors’ aren’t the ones who get things done here,” Begin said.
I found the article interesting.
Father McDonald, thank you for having posted the article in question.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Sophia here: Father McDonald. I would be remiss if I did not tell you how much I enjoy your wit! I have been thinking about commenting on this additional talent of yours for some time. Tonight you outdid yourself! Your response at 10:50 AM was hilarious! That took real talent! Are you sure you won't fit in some stand up comedy now that you are retired-maybe as fundraisers?
I am an enthusiastic proponent of "Laughter is the best medicine"! Thank you.
Retired to Hilton Head is it? Good work if you can get it, I guess.
How do Catholic priests retire from their Holy Orders vow? Can a Catholic layman retire from his Holy Matrimony vow?
Did any of the ordained great saints every retire? And to a place like HHI? Hmmm, enjoy.
Hey Ranger, there are retired priests everywhere. I could have gone to my place of birth on the Mediterranean to retire, Naples or my mother’s hometown of Livorno, the beginning the the Italian Riviera or another beautiful city where my parents lived on the Adriatic coast of Italy, Trieste. We have retired priests on Saint Simons Island. And I should tell you that the four parishes in Beaufort County, which includes Hilton Head, has more Catholics than the 11 or so parishes in the metro Savannah area. And let’s talk about Savannah and its historic district, it is more expensive than HHI. And you are correct, retired isn’t a good term for a priest since I am quite active as a priest trying to fulfill my promises of celibacy, obedience and prayer (Liturgy of the Hours and Mass not to mention popular devotions). So, of the nearly 80,000 Catholics in Beaufort County, do you think priests who are retired should not live there to assist those Catholics and their active clergy? Sorry you are jealous.
Mark Thomas' self-righteous rant--ever so careful to clarify how Traditionalists "hijacked" Summorum Pontificum, is one of many reasons I hardly look at this blog any more.
Again, anyone with the IQ of a hamster knows darned well that ending the Traditional Mass was one of the reasons that the Sankt Gallen Mafia vetted this pope. The Catholic laity can no more hijack a valid Motu Proprio than a squirrel could hijack a Boeing 747.
And Mr. Thomas--who again, I content needs to grow up--it is quite possible to disagree with others publicly and not be "Satanic". If you could get past your compulsive fan fiction about the Bergolian debacle, you might get that. If, as you say, you are actually an attorney who has passed the bar, you might have even witnessed people publicly disagreeing with each other without being "Satanic". There is life outside the Marvel universe. Merging your comic book philosophy with the realities of the Church IS truly comical.
Summorum Pontificum not only asserted that the Traditional Mass was never abrogated , but IT CAN NEVER BE ABROGATED. The false constructs of the dictator pope are a temporary exercise in frustration from the aging apostate administrators who cannot stand it or dare to admit that their revolution not only failed, but that young people want no part of it.
As for the rest of us, take a deep breath. Again, I assert, this illegitimate overreach will not last. The Novus Ordo establishment is doomed to collapse under the weight of its own illegitimacy. The sheer desperation of these moves proves that, deep down, the KNOW they are defeated. Let them enjoy their little pyrrhic victory--it's not going to last very long.
"So, of the nearly 80,000 Catholics in Beaufort County,..."
The entire Diocese of Charleston claims 196,245 Catholics. Are you sure that 40% of them are in Beaufort County?
Mr. Ranger, By the way, I plan to retire to New York City where, like Fr. ALLAN McDonald, I will relinquish any and all administrative responsibilities while maintaining an appropriately active sacramental ministry. I was told about two years ago by a former member of the priest personnel committee for Manhattan that, at the time when we spoke, there were fifty parishes (his words) where I could reside and be of assistance to the clergy assigned to that location.
So, yes, priests retire. Some, like a priest of our diocese now living in Florida, have been actively engaged in raising money for Habitat for Humanity. Some serve as itinerant preachers for organizations like Cross Catholic International or Bread for the Poor. A couple I have known, including one bishop, have chosen to spend their retirements in cloistered monastic communities. Some kind of "fall off the face of the earth" and aren't heard from again, preferring to live a quite, unattached life.
You always forget that in this diocese only about 20 to 25% of Catholics bother to register and less than half the registered Catholics attend Mass most Sundays. So do your math and figure out hoe many people comprise the 80% not registered or attending Mass and report back to me with those statistics.
You're guesstimating with no basis.
Here are the numbers:
Beaufort County has a population of 189,732.
The Diocese of Charleston says that 4.1% of the population - not the Catholic population, but the total population - is Catholic. That gives us a rough estimate of 7,779 Catholic residing in Beaufort County. Not quite the 80,000 you suggest. To get to 80K, the population would have to be 42.5% Catholic, which is entirely unlikely.
Saint Gregory’s alone has 5,000 registered families. A conservative estimate of 3 per household would be 15,000 people. Add the other parishes and all the non registered and WOW, I am right!
Fr. AJM,
I appreciate the sentiment, however, and as I wrote within another of your postings, you obviously cannot take this to the bank. While a nice thought, it is of no consequence to committed believers who week in and out, support their parish. While St. Gregory is likely in that enviable position of size/might ensuring financial success, and, hopefully, the achievement of their spiritual goals, we, unfortunately, are not always so blessed. If folks want a parish, a priest and don't want the overhead of that to create, at times, an almost catastrophic undertow, support your parish. It certainly contributes to a more equitable balance of contributors/contributions needed for survival/achieving spiritual goals and the ability to look outwardly, not always focused on looking inward as circumstance(s) doesn't permit otherwise.
At some level, I'm struggling to get beyond the "feel good" component of your recount as in your former role, you paid the bills, dealt with the repairs and worried about the mortgage. I'm sure, therefore, you perfectly understand that to which I'm referring. Those who don't come, don't support, what consequence are they to me besides someone to try, try and try again to re-engage?
"Saying things that don't make sense but pretending they do."
Fourth time you've proven my point.
That Father K would relocate to New York City for retirement is hardly a surprise. He will be in a liberal "paradise." Since the police are retiring in droves there and the mayor is pro criminal, he better learn to lock and load.
ByzRus, you're not worth the trouble.
People who live their lives in dread fear of boogey-men, Communists, monsters under the bed, IRS audits, Ouija boards, bearded ladies, etc., are always ready to announce , "This is 'Murica. Lock and Load!" They exhinit a tragic lack of trust in Divine Providence.
I've been to NYCity at least a dozen times and will be there again in October. I have never felt that I was in greater danger there than in any urban area I've lived in or visited, including Savannah, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Chicago, Augusta, Macon, St.Louis, and others.
People who chant "Lock and Load" have been manipulated - easily manipulated. Oh, they'll say they're just being realistic when, in fact, there are many more likely threats to their health and well-being than bad guys with guns. MANY more. They've been hornswoggled and they gullibly believe what the hornswogglers want them to believe.. And as we all know ...
Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities
TJM,
Right back at you. What a cop-out and a weak one at that. I've welcomed you repeatedly to engage me the way you do others here. You had to have been the bully on the playground of childhood; or, have invested a lifetime goading others in your unique and vacuous way until you get your own way.
"That Father K would relocate to New York City for retirement is hardly a surprise. He will be in a liberal "paradise." Since the police are retiring in droves there and the mayor is pro criminal, he better learn to lock and load."
Shoo, shoo.. Crawl back under the rock from which you came.
*What is the basis of this assessment?
*Why is it hardly a surprise?
Perhaps his relatives live there and Fr. desires more family time while availing himself of the city's cultural attractions? Perhaps he wishes to be near world-class health care, should it be needed.
Why are you incapable of just saying "best wishes" and leaving it at that? Always the dig. YOU should stay out of the cities like NYC. Your mouth alone will get you promptly into trouble. Hint: Limit your eye contact, stand against the wall on subway platforms and look like you have someplace to be if you take to the streets there.
Not splitting infinitives is one of those 'rules', much beloved by pedants, which is actually not a rule at all. Fowler's objection to the split infinitive is that it usually sounds inelegant, but sometimes over-studious attempts to avoid it are less elegant still. 'To boldly go' is more expressive than 'to go boldly', and 'boldly to go' is hardly felicitous.
There was a tendency to try and make English grammar conform to Latin grammar - and since the infinitive in Latin is a single word, it can't be split. This tendency gave rise to another non-rule, viz. not ending a sentence with a preposition. Latin doesn't do it, but English has a large number of phrasal verbs (verbs followed by one or more prepositions) which don't exist in Latin or indeed in most other languages.
Incidentally, I don't make a habit of correcting the English of other contributors; it's impolite. Some years ago I did take one contributor to task, but only because he saw fit to comment, and in a snide manner, on the grammatical solecisms of another, while paying insufficient attention to his own English. Motes and beams ... People in glass houses ...
ByzRus,
By all means have a go at TJM, but your snide comment directed at me (1:52 PM, 7 August) was uncalled for. I don't recall having taken issue with you on anything you have written; in fact, I would endorse it.
I suspect there are contributors to this blog who can boast more academic qualifications than I can. For the record, I have a BA (Hons) in Modern History from Durham University and an MA in War Studies from King's College, London. Rather a modest tally, don't you think?
John Nolan,
You are clearly learned however, like the other, you have lobbed snide remarks on many instances on this blog, including at myself as a newcomer. In this environment, that has done such incredible damage to the Church at-large, you made a comment to Fr. MJK, that had absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand in any way, shape, or form that was both subtle and profoundly offensive. You don't need my approval and why would you care what I have to say, but, honestly, my opinion changed completely on that day.
I don't know Fr. MJK by the way. I do find him to be learned, highly intelligent, I relate to some of his viewpoints and he keeps me from venturing into rad-trad territory. I speak up for him as both you and the other have taken liberties with counterproductive insults that would never occur in person. You've even bristled with our congenial host who doesn't have to maintain this blog. None of the priests have to take their time to contribute here. There is behavior here, arrogance, bravado that I've not seen elsewhere. Mark Thomas. Why do you care about his alleged non-sequiturs? Let him have his say. Do not read it and feel compelled to comment back if it is so bothersome.
Earlier on, I adopted a stance similar to you, mostly the other. I thought it was what the cool kids were doing and joined in. One day, I had a bit of an epiphany and said to myself "what am I doing?". I had devolved into something I almost wholly eschew. The commentary in which I was participating was just beyond guys just being guys....guys breaking ba!!$. The distinction between you and the other?? Your commentary, regardless of type, is mostly thoughtful as opposed to extremist, conspiracy theory, slanderous sound bytes. It's really the slanderous part that I can no longer tolerate. We're grown, responsible men who are.....wait for it.....CATHOLIC and our comportment should be reflective of our shared communion. The barbs and insults, sometimes subtle, other times egregious need to stop. We're better than that. A potential convert reading our interactions would reasonably be turned off from the Church. Others might conclude, as did a student if you recall, that this is just a haven for older white men who do not see other than those who look like them. I cannot sit idly by so long as Fr. AJM chooses to post my comments and let poor behavior go unchecked. Go, reflect, and read past comments. We all likely need to.
In sum, those who want respect, give respect. I can either do refined, or base-stye street. I'm flexible. I am, however, very respectful when ALL within a community are treated fairly and respectfully and can have their say without fear of mob-style repercussions.
ByzRus,
Would you care to quote or reference the 'snide remark' I made to you as a newcomer? I appreciate your posts, but you do come across as a rather humourless and (dare I say?) touchy individual. There is also more than a whiff of sanctimoniousness, which I find off-putting.
By the way, to be both subtle and offensive is a rare gift. Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not sure I deserve it.
John Nolan,
Your assessment is faulty. If anything, I'm a straight shooter. I can see some finding that to be a bit much. As for sanctimony, not at all, I breathe the same air as most everyone else. You may perceive my feedback as such, however, all of Fr's AJM, MJK and Fox are under the tutelage of someone with episcopal authority (though, for Fr. AJM not sure how it works for retirees - but, he likely maintains a celebret from somewhere I would think), so, I try not to treat this blog as though it were a juvenile's club house. Last, humorless? Hardly. We just have never shared a humorous moment that I can recall.
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