BOMBSHELL! POPE FRANCIS PRESIDES AT 6 TH CENTURY COMPLETELY CHANTED AD ORIENTEM LITURGY WITH ULTRA TRADITIONAL VESTMENTS OF EXQUISITE BEAUTY AND JEWELED CROWNS
Of course it is the Tridentine Mass’s Fraternal Twin, the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom:
September 14, 2007…. Liberation day! Summorum Pontificum September 14, 2021…. ?
Is it ironic that Francis should participate in the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and show how “diverse” he is when he’s undone one of the greatest acts of pluralism any modern Pontiff has achieved, Summorum Pontificum, motu proprio of His Holiness Benedict XVI.
Should the Eastern Churches prepare for a Francis stunting a la Traditiones Custodes?
I hope Francis doesn’t turn up at an Ordinariate Form liturgy!
JED and Brzrus, there is great irony here and the fact that the Holy Father does not see the his duplicity here or maybe he does is stunning. The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is similar in ethos as our ancient form. That the Holy Father is trying to suppress our form which is similar to the Eastern Church’s form is a scandal. That the Holy Father would not encourage our usage and even preside as he did at today’s Divine Liturgy in our own Ancient form is sad and ironic. He won’t change the Eastern Rite as he know they will return to the Orthodox bishops.
Fr. ALLAN McD - The only "duplicity" here is your willful failure to recognize the differences between and among the various Rites of the Catholic Church.
"He won’t change the Eastern Rite as he know they will return to the Orthodox bishops."
I agree, 500%.
Separately, though ironic, there's a subtle difference, at least to me. In the Roman Church, PF has a means of ministering to his flock that's acceptable to him, the Ordinary Form Mass. The people, in turn, can choose whether or not to be ministered to by their Pope. In the Byzantine Catholic Church (Rusyn), there are two very similar forms of Divine Liturgy that are relied upon: St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great (let's not confuse matters with who does/does not rely upon the Divine Liturgy of St. James - it's equally as old). There isn't an Ordinary Form equivalent. The Pope, therefore, has no choice but to submit himself to these liturgies if he wishes to minister to that part of his Eastern flock.
Fr. Allan J. McDonald said... Oh really? When is he last time you celebrated or attended in choir dress the 1962 Roman Missal Mass?
Fr. I'll humbly offer that the answer to your question is that Fr. MJK doesn't have to. Entirely different set of circumstances one Church to the other within the aggregate Catholic Communion.
Concerning choir dress at Divine Liturgy, when Archimandrite William Haddad, BSO, died circa 2005, the Eparch John Elya was the principal celebrant at Divine Liturgy at St John Chrysostom Melkite Catholic Church in Atlanta and Archbishop Donoghue, as was said to be protocol, did not attend but was represented, in the Holy Place during the entire liturgy, by his vicar in choir dress. He obviously did not concentrate. Assuming that was all done correctly, then it IS possible for Francis to have attended yet not concelebrated.
I have been to a few Orthodox Divine Liturgies but never a Catholic Divine Liturgy. Is Catholic ones different by not having an iconostasis? Is this normal or is this an exemption for the Pope being there? I thought they were required as Holy of Holies, Mystery Performing location with lots of rules about entering and blessings and who can enter etc.
And you continue to root for a failed rite, the OF, which had chased away millions and only 30 percent of its attendees believe in the Real Presence. You are beyond tedious
Pope Francis was fully vested as a priest and therefore concelebrated. Francis, as supreme pontiff, likely has faculties to celebrate liturgies other than Roman Mass simply by virtue of the office he holds. Perhaps, however, he simply vested in Roman vestments as a Roman priest/bishop/pontiff who does not celebrate / is not trained to celebrate the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. I'm assuming this might have been the case as to do otherwise would just be play acting.
Like our Byzantine Orthodox Brothers and Sisters (distinct from the Oriental Orthodox - different liturgical practices), Byzantine Ruthenians (Rusyns) are very mindful of the theology of the building as well as the importance of the iconostasis/iconostas (icon screen) both as a point of veneration, a teaching tool and significant to the liturgy itself (see Revelation, the gates). While an established parish should have an iconostas for the reasons that I mentioned, lack of funds may result in the existence of a parish for a time without having this element. It's not the ideal and it can be mitigated by the placement of the proper icons, usually our Lord and our Mother, to establish where the screen and royal/deacons doors would be. For a special need or where a significant crowd is expected, Divine Liturgy can be offered outdoors with temporary icons arranged as I described. The Orthodox have done this as well.
ByzRus, I was referencing a comment about how Francis probably could have, had he desired, attended in choir and therefore he generously participated to a degree not required of him. It’s good for him to do it. I wish he’d do so for the Missal of 1962, et al.
Ahh...Ok. I understand. In the East, he, as bishop could have attended in choir sitting on a throne outside the holy place (sanctuary). I believe, however, the protocol would be for him to vest at a minimum in epitracil (stole) and distribute communion to those ordained to presbyterate (I don't know if this extends to those who aren't vested acting as MC etc) who would take the consecrated bread cupped in their hands behind the holy table (altar) until the appropriate time to consume that element arrives. I believe the priests then self commune from the cup prior to the consecrated elements being prepared for distribution to the faithful. With some confidence, I believe this practice to be illustrative of apostolic succession. Whether or not this practice is universal among all the various jurisdictions, I do not know.
James E Dangerfield said..."Concerning choir dress at Divine Liturgy, when Archimandrite William Haddad, BSO, died circa 2005, the Eparch John Elya was the principal celebrant at Divine Liturgy at St John Chrysostom Melkite Catholic Church in Atlanta and Archbishop Donoghue, as was said to be protocol, did not attend but was represented, in the Holy Place during the entire liturgy, by his vicar in choir dress. He obviously did not concentrate."
PF could not celebrate a Byzantine-rite liturgy since he does not sing and in any case does not know the chants or the language (presumably Slovak, although I did hear bits of what could have been Old Church Slavonic or Ukrainian, and most of the crowd seemed to be from Ukraine).
He could, and did, mumble a few prayers in Latin, and preached in Italian. If, as usual, he departed from the text, how many would have noticed?
John Nolan said..."PF could not celebrate a Byzantine-rite liturgy since he does not sing and in any case does not know the chants or the language (presumably Slovak, although I did hear bits of what could have been Old Church Slavonic or Ukrainian, and most of the crowd seemed to be from Ukraine)."
It was Slovak, with some Slavonic, Latin from the pope.
I didn't watch the entire thing, but from what I saw, I didn't see any indication that most of the crowd was from Ukraine.
On the contrary, from what I saw, a substantial portion of the crowd were people of the Latin Rite, which became obvious at the Gospel and the Anaphora, and they would presumably be from Slovakia as opposed to Ukraine.
My guess is that the majority of the people attending were Roman Rite Slovaks.
You may well be right. Only 3.8% of Slovaks identify as Greek Catholic (as opposed to 62% who identify as Roman Catholic) whereas many western Ukrainians are Catholics of the Byzantine rite. I identified (probably erroneously) the yellow scarves as indicating Ukraine.
It does raise an interesting question. Latin-rite Slovaks would not be familiar with the liturgy, but would presumably have understood what was being chanted as it was in the vernacular. The 'Divine Liturgy' is sufficiently well-grounded and tamper-proof to survive translation. When the Latin rite was vernacularized in the 1960s it immediately gave rise to any number of innovations and distortions, manifold abuses and in most places the complete loss of a musical tradition which was centuries old.
One would not have believed that the Western liturgical tradition, at least as venerable as the Eastern, would prove to have such shallow roots.
John Nolan said...You may well be right. Only 3.8% of Slovaks identify as Greek Catholic (as opposed to 62% who identify as Roman Catholic) whereas many western Ukrainians are Catholics of the Byzantine rite. I identified (probably erroneously) the yellow scarves as indicating Ukraine.
I'm pretty sure that the yellow scarves were meant to signify the pope's colors as opposed to anything having to do with Ukraine. That's probably the reason for the yellow umbrellas as well.
Here are some portions that stood out and made it obvious, at least to me. I'm sure ByzRus would agree.
If you forward to 39:42 and following, which is at the time the Gospel is announced (in Slovak), you will see a number of people behind the wheel chair section signing themselves, starting on the forehead, which is a dead giveaway for Latin Rite Catholics.
Then at the Anaphora, after the Exclamation over the bread, the people depicted starting at 1:18:46 behind the rows of priests are definitely GC for a few rows, but as the camera pans down the rows and gets to the guys in the vests, the people behind them are obviously of the Latin Rite, including the nuns. You can tell instantly by what they're doing or, rather, what they're not doing.
Then after the Exclamation over the chalice, the large group of people depicted at 1:19:24 and following, who are just standing there doing nothing (a few are bowing slightly) are most definitely Latin Rite Catholics.
Again, at 1:33:32, at the prayers before Holy Communion, out of the crowd depicted there, only two people, a man and a woman, are acting in a manner consistent with being GC. The rest are obviously Roman Rite.
Then at Communion time it was very obvious. You can see people saying "Amen," and then following 1:41:40 it looked like one woman may have even expected to receive in the hand.
Then of course at 1:51:53 many of the people are crossing themselves open-handed, left to right, which connotes the Roman Rite.
All that said, it was a beautiful liturgy. I like hearing how others fit their words into the same melodies we use.
The scarves are commemorative. They say Presov, among other things - probably something pertaining to this particular papal "voyage".
This is a mixed crowd, Roman and Eastern, as mentioned. The "Tebe Poem", We praise thee etc.. is particularly beautiful.
Slovak and Church Slavonic are being used, along with the previously mentioned Italian/Latin. Ukrainian would not be used - that is a different church and a different hierarchy. The celebrant is His Grace Jan Babyak, bishop of the Archeparchy of Presov. Being our mother church, the Greek Catholic (Ruthenian/Rusyn) hierarchy from Europe visits our eparchies and parishes here in the U.S.
To me, this was a highpoint in terms of a papal liturgy.
Thank you for your input. My experience of the Divine Liturgy has been courtesy of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in England; I have to confess that I can't easily distinguish between OCS and vernacular Ukrainian.
23 comments:
Not sure I view this as a bombshell, Fr. There's only one way to celebrate a Byzantine Divine Liturgy, no exceptions.
September 14, 2007…. Liberation day! Summorum Pontificum
September 14, 2021…. ?
Is it ironic that Francis should participate in the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and show how “diverse” he is when he’s undone one of the greatest acts of pluralism any modern Pontiff has achieved, Summorum Pontificum, motu proprio of His Holiness Benedict XVI.
Should the Eastern Churches prepare for a Francis stunting a la Traditiones Custodes?
I hope Francis doesn’t turn up at an Ordinariate Form liturgy!
JED and Brzrus, there is great irony here and the fact that the Holy Father does not see the his duplicity here or maybe he does is stunning. The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is similar in ethos as our ancient form. That the Holy Father is trying to suppress our form which is similar to the Eastern Church’s form is a scandal. That the Holy Father would not encourage our usage and even preside as he did at today’s Divine Liturgy in our own Ancient form is sad and ironic.
He won’t change the Eastern Rite as he know they will return to the Orthodox bishops.
Fr. ALLAN McD - The only "duplicity" here is your willful failure to recognize the differences between and among the various Rites of the Catholic Church.
"He won’t change the Eastern Rite as he know they will return to the Orthodox bishops."
I agree, 500%.
Separately, though ironic, there's a subtle difference, at least to me. In the Roman Church, PF has a means of ministering to his flock that's acceptable to him, the Ordinary Form Mass. The people, in turn, can choose whether or not to be ministered to by their Pope. In the Byzantine Catholic Church (Rusyn), there are two very similar forms of Divine Liturgy that are relied upon: St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great (let's not confuse matters with who does/does not rely upon the Divine Liturgy of St. James - it's equally as old). There isn't an Ordinary Form equivalent. The Pope, therefore, has no choice but to submit himself to these liturgies if he wishes to minister to that part of his Eastern flock.
Oh really? When is he last time you celebrated or attended in choir dress the 1962 Roman Missal Mass?
Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...
Oh really? When is he last time you celebrated or attended in choir dress the 1962 Roman Missal Mass?
Fr. I'll humbly offer that the answer to your question is that Fr. MJK doesn't have to. Entirely different set of circumstances one Church to the other within the aggregate Catholic Communion.
Concerning choir dress at Divine Liturgy, when Archimandrite William Haddad, BSO, died circa 2005, the Eparch John Elya was the principal celebrant at Divine Liturgy at St John Chrysostom Melkite Catholic Church in Atlanta and Archbishop Donoghue, as was said to be protocol, did not attend but was represented, in the Holy Place during the entire liturgy, by his vicar in choir dress. He obviously did not concentrate. Assuming that was all done correctly, then it IS possible for Francis to have attended yet not concelebrated.
I have been to a few Orthodox Divine Liturgies but never a Catholic Divine Liturgy. Is Catholic ones different by not having an iconostasis? Is this normal or is this an exemption for the Pope being there? I thought they were required as Holy of Holies, Mystery Performing location with lots of rules about entering and blessings and who can enter etc.
Fr. K,
And you continue to root for a failed rite, the OF, which had chased away millions and only 30 percent of its attendees believe in the Real Presence. You are beyond tedious
In a mega-liturgy like this an iconostasis would be impractical. The Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in London certainly has one.
James E Dangerfield:
Pope Francis was fully vested as a priest and therefore concelebrated. Francis, as supreme pontiff, likely has faculties to celebrate liturgies other than Roman Mass simply by virtue of the office he holds. Perhaps, however, he simply vested in Roman vestments as a Roman priest/bishop/pontiff who does not celebrate / is not trained to celebrate the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. I'm assuming this might have been the case as to do otherwise would just be play acting.
Thank you, Father, for posting that.
It is interesting to hear how Slovak fits into the same melodies used here. They threw in Slavonic, too, for good measure.
And Latin from the pope. How ironic.
I noticed that the crowd contained quite a few Roman Rite Catholics. I wonder what the breakdown was.
qwikness:
Good questions.
Like our Byzantine Orthodox Brothers and Sisters (distinct from the Oriental Orthodox - different liturgical practices), Byzantine Ruthenians (Rusyns) are very mindful of the theology of the building as well as the importance of the iconostasis/iconostas (icon screen) both as a point of veneration, a teaching tool and significant to the liturgy itself (see Revelation, the gates). While an established parish should have an iconostas for the reasons that I mentioned, lack of funds may result in the existence of a parish for a time without having this element. It's not the ideal and it can be mitigated by the placement of the proper icons, usually our Lord and our Mother, to establish where the screen and royal/deacons doors would be. For a special need or where a significant crowd is expected, Divine Liturgy can be offered outdoors with temporary icons arranged as I described. The Orthodox have done this as well.
ByzRus, I was referencing a comment about how Francis probably could have, had he desired, attended in choir and therefore he generously participated to a degree not required of him. It’s good for him to do it. I wish he’d do so for the Missal of 1962, et al.
James E. Dangerfield
Ahh...Ok. I understand. In the East, he, as bishop could have attended in choir sitting on a throne outside the holy place (sanctuary). I believe, however, the protocol would be for him to vest at a minimum in epitracil (stole) and distribute communion to those ordained to presbyterate (I don't know if this extends to those who aren't vested acting as MC etc) who would take the consecrated bread cupped in their hands behind the holy table (altar) until the appropriate time to consume that element arrives. I believe the priests then self commune from the cup prior to the consecrated elements being prepared for distribution to the faithful. With some confidence, I believe this practice to be illustrative of apostolic succession. Whether or not this practice is universal among all the various jurisdictions, I do not know.
James E Dangerfield said..."Concerning choir dress at Divine Liturgy, when Archimandrite William Haddad, BSO, died circa 2005, the Eparch John Elya was the principal celebrant at Divine Liturgy at St John Chrysostom Melkite Catholic Church in Atlanta and Archbishop Donoghue, as was said to be protocol, did not attend but was represented, in the Holy Place during the entire liturgy, by his vicar in choir dress. He obviously did not concentrate."
No doubt a Freudian slip, but probably true. Lol.
PF could not celebrate a Byzantine-rite liturgy since he does not sing and in any case does not know the chants or the language (presumably Slovak, although I did hear bits of what could have been Old Church Slavonic or Ukrainian, and most of the crowd seemed to be from Ukraine).
He could, and did, mumble a few prayers in Latin, and preached in Italian. If, as usual, he departed from the text, how many would have noticed?
John Nolan said..."PF could not celebrate a Byzantine-rite liturgy since he does not sing and in any case does not know the chants or the language (presumably Slovak, although I did hear bits of what could have been Old Church Slavonic or Ukrainian, and most of the crowd seemed to be from Ukraine)."
It was Slovak, with some Slavonic, Latin from the pope.
I didn't watch the entire thing, but from what I saw, I didn't see any indication that most of the crowd was from Ukraine.
On the contrary, from what I saw, a substantial portion of the crowd were people of the Latin Rite, which became obvious at the Gospel and the Anaphora, and they would presumably be from Slovakia as opposed to Ukraine.
My guess is that the majority of the people attending were Roman Rite Slovaks.
DJR
You may well be right. Only 3.8% of Slovaks identify as Greek Catholic (as opposed to 62% who identify as Roman Catholic) whereas many western Ukrainians are Catholics of the Byzantine rite. I identified (probably erroneously) the yellow scarves as indicating Ukraine.
It does raise an interesting question. Latin-rite Slovaks would not be familiar with the liturgy, but would presumably have understood what was being chanted as it was in the vernacular. The 'Divine Liturgy' is sufficiently well-grounded and tamper-proof to survive translation. When the Latin rite was vernacularized in the 1960s it immediately gave rise to any number of innovations and distortions, manifold abuses and in most places the complete loss of a musical tradition which was centuries old.
One would not have believed that the Western liturgical tradition, at least as venerable as the Eastern, would prove to have such shallow roots.
John Nolan said...You may well be right. Only 3.8% of Slovaks identify as Greek Catholic (as opposed to 62% who identify as Roman Catholic) whereas many western Ukrainians are Catholics of the Byzantine rite. I identified (probably erroneously) the yellow scarves as indicating Ukraine.
I'm pretty sure that the yellow scarves were meant to signify the pope's colors as opposed to anything having to do with Ukraine. That's probably the reason for the yellow umbrellas as well.
Here are some portions that stood out and made it obvious, at least to me. I'm sure ByzRus would agree.
If you forward to 39:42 and following, which is at the time the Gospel is announced (in Slovak), you will see a number of people behind the wheel chair section signing themselves, starting on the forehead, which is a dead giveaway for Latin Rite Catholics.
Then at the Anaphora, after the Exclamation over the bread, the people depicted starting at 1:18:46 behind the rows of priests are definitely GC for a few rows, but as the camera pans down the rows and gets to the guys in the vests, the people behind them are obviously of the Latin Rite, including the nuns. You can tell instantly by what they're doing or, rather, what they're not doing.
Then after the Exclamation over the chalice, the large group of people depicted at 1:19:24 and following, who are just standing there doing nothing (a few are bowing slightly) are most definitely Latin Rite Catholics.
Again, at 1:33:32, at the prayers before Holy Communion, out of the crowd depicted there, only two people, a man and a woman, are acting in a manner consistent with being GC. The rest are obviously Roman Rite.
Then at Communion time it was very obvious. You can see people saying "Amen," and then following 1:41:40 it looked like one woman may have even expected to receive in the hand.
Then of course at 1:51:53 many of the people are crossing themselves open-handed, left to right, which connotes the Roman Rite.
All that said, it was a beautiful liturgy. I like hearing how others fit their words into the same melodies we use.
Agree w/ DJR.
The scarves are commemorative. They say Presov, among other things - probably something pertaining to this particular papal "voyage".
This is a mixed crowd, Roman and Eastern, as mentioned. The "Tebe Poem", We praise thee etc.. is particularly beautiful.
Slovak and Church Slavonic are being used, along with the previously mentioned Italian/Latin. Ukrainian would not be used - that is a different church and a different hierarchy. The celebrant is His Grace Jan Babyak, bishop of the Archeparchy of Presov. Being our mother church, the Greek Catholic (Ruthenian/Rusyn) hierarchy from Europe visits our eparchies and parishes here in the U.S.
To me, this was a highpoint in terms of a papal liturgy.
DJR and ByzRus
Thank you for your input. My experience of the Divine Liturgy has been courtesy of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in England; I have to confess that I can't easily distinguish between OCS and vernacular Ukrainian.
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