I think most will acknowledge that one of the greatest weaknesses of the Ordinary Form Mass is the fluidity of its rubrics which allows for just about anything because there is no rubric to counteract illicit actions.
In the photo above, we see something that is very common for priests and unfortunately, bishops too, to do. Please note where the Roman Missal is placed! It is truly shocking to say the least!
Let’s go to the EF Mass now and before the council. The placement of everything on the altar was/is prescribed, including the Roman Missal, when it should be moved, etc.
In the EF Mass, the corporal cloth is even more important than it is in the OF Mass. In fact it is almost useless in the OF Mass. It is meant to contain any particles of the consecrated Host that might fall upon it. In the EF Mass, the priest’s host is consecrated without the use of the paten, meaning it is placed directly on the corporal cloth prior to its consecration and after its consecration.
In the OF Mass, the host is always on the paten prior to consecration and afterward. This reduces the amount of particles on the corporal cloth to almost nothing if nothing.
The area where Particles might fall on the corporal cloth would be at the Fraction Rite in the OF Mass especially if the celebrant does not fraction the Host directly over and into the Chalice. When using even larger hosts that can be fractioned into multiple smaller Hosts, Particles fly all over the place.
Thus notice where the Roman Missal is in the photo above. It, more than likely, is being sprinkled with a huge amount of Host Particles, the Precious Body and Blood of Christ.
Stop it bishops and priest. And use a Roman Missal stand. Add dignity to the Liturgy by the accessories which are needed for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
24 comments:
Slobbism was another "fruit" of the Council.
No, thank you, I will not use a "Roman Missal" stand.
It is not an accessory "needed for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass."
Every nanosecond the Precious Blood is in the chalice, particles are being wafted into the air due to evaporation, flying all over the place as you put it.
Unless and until you show the same concern for those particles, your host particle rant will be meaningless.
Oh, and I read somewhere that the Missal Stand MUST be made of wood and MUST have "legs" that form an "X" since the manger in which Jesus was placed after his birth was made of wood and, as we see in so, so many cloyingly pious paintings of the event, had legs that formed an "X". Prodigal Son, anyone?
"Father" Kavanaugh,
Why not start your own blog? With your winning personality I am sure you would attract millions
Fr Kavanaugh, with his modernist take on liturgy, and a purely literalist interpretation of the same, is an unfortunate symptom of the post-Vatican II disaster. Some time ago I opined that he knew as much about liturgy as did my Jack Russell terrier, and his subsequent posts on the subject have not altered this judgement. (Memo to a literalist: hyperbole is a literary device, as is irony, which is not to be confused with crude sarcasm).
In this case his tendentiousness is compounded by his ignorance. Should any of the Precious Blood remain after Mass (and that does not happen in the older rite) then it can be diluted to the extent that it is no longer wine and poured down the sacrarium. A particle of the Sacred Host is consecrated as long as it takes the form of bread; if it is dissolved to the extent it no longer has that form, it is no longer consecrated.
No doubt he will have a go at my perceived intellectual superiority, which is the resort of those who feel themselves intellectually challenged, and not forget (as he sometimes does) to hit the Anonymous button.
several years ago i watched a severette pick up the corporal and shake it out like a towel and fold it up. no one batted an eye. When I approached her mother (who was not present at the Mass) she about laid an egg and explained "don't worry THAT will never happen again"
what galls me is that Fr was sitting right there and did nothing and said nothing, not even to the severette after mass, I guess no big deal.
BTW, the corporals are tossed into the washer with all the other linens, makes me sick
The photo is from 2016 while I was on a continuing ed program with the North American College in Rome. It was a four week program. I am in the background. It is a priest in pink shirt who is holding the chalice. Unfortunately after this program, we learned that the auxiliary bishop from Los Angeles celebrating this Mass and on the same program was removed from ministry due to an accusation decades ago. All very sad to say the least.
John - My reference is not to "any of the Precious Blood remain after Mass" but to any of the Precious Blood that is in the chalice at ANY time during the mass. Were your pup able to read, I suspect he would have read what I said and understood it as well, if not better, than you have.
Rest assured, I do not find your intellect a challenge - at all.
Father Kavanaugh:
I'm sorry, but your account of the evaporated "particles" of the Precious Blood is simply wrong and very badly so. The Real Presence corresponds to the "accidents" or appearances of the elements that were consecrated. Simply put, when the Precious Blood no longer has the apparent qualities of wine -- and the same for the consecrated Hosts, as to bread -- then the Real Presence of our Lord ceases. So, yes, it is true that wine evaporates; but insofar as the Precious Blood would do so, there is no loss; or are you telling me that you can see those molecules escaping into the air?
Aside to all: it is rude to use quote marks when addressing Father Kavanaugh, and it is childish to the point of reflecting badly on you. Our genial host recognizes Father Kavanaugh as a fellow priest, and I can tell you I have met our genial host on a couple of occasions, and I can vouch for him being a priest and he for me. A man is not a priest merely because you happen to approve of him; and if you are heresy-hunter, can you name the heresy lurking behind that mindset?
But then, what does one expect from those who choose to hide behind "anonymous"? If you aren't willing to identify yourself more than that -- you can simply add a nom de plume in your comment, you don't have to register -- then how and why should anyone take you seriously?
Unfreakingbelievable. Does Father Kavanaugh truly believe in God? He surely doesn't act like it. If THE God of the universe is truly present in the Holy Eucharist..you know THE God that should prompt extreme humility and bowing of the knees and stuff, holy horror...then He would be treated with the utmost respect and carefulness. But hey, it's just God, right? I'm sure He doesn't mind being trampled all over and handled by unconsecrated hands - what's a book compared to that? The Novus Ordo religion is a joke. Have fun with that.
I see Mr. Personality, Mr. Postitive is back, talking evaporated molecules, and how stupid is everyone else. Who knows the discipline of the sacraments requires treating any recognizable/perceptible portions as Christ himself. I know a stand would cause SO many problems for him, especially in blocking views of who really matters at Mass.
Father Fox,
Father Kavanaugh posts anonymously frequently or under various pet names. I doubt he will change
Fr. MARTIN Fox, I don't agree. "Particles" of the host don't have the appearance of bread any more than evaporated "particles" of the Precious Blood have the appearance of bread. Those "Particles fly all over the place...", as Fr. ALLAN McDonald puts it, and aren't distinguishable from other particles in any space outside a NASA super-sterile lab.
Then there is the matter of un-noticed fragments... Fractioning hosts, if they truly give off "Particles..." that "...fly all over the place..." must be ended, lest the, "...huge amount of Host Particles..." (that should be number, not amount, by the way) just get flung far and wide.
How many angels can dance on the head of a needle, or when is a particle no longer a particle through its accidents? Quite ivory towerish, is it not?
The point, however, is not the answer, but how much respect and reverence is one willing to give the very Body and Blood of Christ? If the consecrated Bread and Wine is God, then am shocked at Fr Kavanaugh's dismissive attitude towards God. I have seen celebrants at Russian Orthodox Divine Liturgies actually prostrate themselves on the ground in front of the Sacred Bread and Wine on the altar following the epiclesis, to give and show their reverence and respect, while trembling on their knees in front of God Himself on the altar.
See the short 2 minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzzPOkAtB8c
I was told by a priest that, when he was an altar server 70 or so years ago, the priest would use the paten to scrape up the particles of the fractioned host that had fallen onto the corporal, then gently brush them into the chalice to be consumed.
This scraping would go on for some time, each pass of the paten over the fabric adding to the collected particles to be reverently treated.
The priest said that it was obvious to anyone that what was being collected on the paten were tiny flakes of starch that was used to stiffen the linen corporal.
Mr Science does not really believe in God because he has yet to conjure him up in a test tube. He is disdainfully dismissive of anything traditional to include popular piety, and wants a provable Scientific religion, and sees anything past that as stupid sentamentality. He wants all effort concentrated on the world that he can see, having zero contact with a world he cannot see. He is miserable, and wants everyone as miserable as himself, and why he constantly must come here to throw bombs under a variety of names, to include his latest sneering baby manger comments. Sneer is his middle name.
Father Fox,
Father Kavanaugh is a “man of science” so his opinions are beyond reproach. I wonder if he believes abortion is an essential healthcare service like his political party demands!
In the 1962 rite, the large Priest’s host was placed directly on the corporal so admittedly there was a theoretical chance of minute particles being left behind, although as the host’s edges were sealed it was highly unlikely in practice.
In the modern rite, the host remains on the paten so never comes into contact with the corporal. Therefore there is next to no chance of particles being left behind on the corporal. In over 30 years of service at the altar, I have never found fragments left behind on the altar or sanctuary area - certainly no real reason to treat the corporal as it was Christ himself!
Personally I don’t feel that a minute white speck is recognisable as a fragment of bread. Only reasonable care as a mark of respect and precaution against accidental abuse is needed, nothing more. There is a danger that respect for the Blessed Sacrament crosses the line and becomes idolatry of unrecognisable traces of the physical accidents which is neither Catholic or spiritually healthy - becoming a way to give the superficial appearance of heightened piety.
If Jesus (or God, as the above commentator said) entered into my presence, I doubt I would fling myself on the floor before him. I suspect the Lord will call me to him and embrace me - as we read in the scriptures.
Father K:
Well, my prior response was seeking to make the very point you came back with -- namely, that at a certain point, there is no actual question of the Real Presence, namely, when the species -- the consecrated bread and wine -- cease to have the appearances as such. Your initial comment about molecules of the Precious Blood being lost introduced confusion, in my opinion.
Any reasonable person can agree that *at some point,* a particle of the Eucharist (Body or Blood) is minute enough, that it ceases to have the appearance of bread or wine. That said, when a priest is offering Holy Mass, in my judgment it is more conducive of reverence and faith for all concerned -- not to mention serving to avoid the faithful being distracted or concerned, let alone scandalized -- if the celebrant manifests great care toward the Holy Eucharist. (Not that I think you disagree with this.) It was to that end that in the Mass, from time immemorial, the priest developed various habits: keeping his fingers together, carefully brushing particles off a paten, scraping the corporal, carefully drinking from the chalice, etc. Whether all this was, quote, "necessary," is beside the point: it communicated something very important and necessary.
Yes, all this can go too far. And the priest himself must have a level head, and help others to do so. But part of the reason this is a concern is because many, many, MANY of us have witnessed terrible irreverence and needless casualness about the Holy Eucharist. It's rather like this: if you get a bit of a sunburn, your skin is going to be extra sensitive for some time after that. Lots of the faithful have been "burned" by disrespect of the Eucharist and so they are sensitive to this problem, perhaps overly so at times, but understandably so.
Pierre:
I have no idea whether Father Kavanaugh posts anonymously, and while you (and others) seem certain of it, I don't know how you can be so certain, but I suppose there are ways. I will be honest that I suspect you are rather more certain than you really have a right to be, but that's your concern, not mine.
Father Fox,
I can give you a list of his pet names if you like. The snark and condescension is an unmistakable pattern including his Trump Derangement Syndrome. I can appreciate your wanting to give a brother priest the benefit of the doubt, but think of Pope Francis and how he lashes out at brother priests. They have very similar traits: “liberal” and intolerant. Cheers
Pierre:
FYI, I try to give *everyone* the benefit of the doubt.
Father Fox,
Very charitable in contrast to the men I mentioned
Father Fox,
I read Father Z’s take on PF today
Interestingly, at some point the pseudonymous posts of the person in question no longer have the qualities of their author, and can be disregarded as unimportant.
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