Again, Praytell gives voice to a post-Catholic theologian who does not believe that God’s Holy Spirit in the now of whatever age guides the Magisterium of the Church. They give voice to a theologian who doesn’t believe in the Catholic Church and he makes it into a purely sociological phenomenon like some kind of political party.
IT IS SICK, TO SAY THE LEAST AND IT FOMENTS MORE POST CATHOLICS LEAVING THE CHURCH OR GOING INTO SCHISM WITH THE GERMANIC BISHOPS’ MOVEMENT.
Here’s the money byte:
Roman Curia and Private Mass: An Age-Old Problem
The statements contained in the letter from Cardinal Sarah with regard to the “individual Mass” must be read in the light of an age-old question. Ever since the Roman Church has given itself a centralized bureaucracy, this organization has begun to assume the role of a “corporation” within of the Roman Church, shaping traditions from a unique and very one-sided notion of ecclesial life. All this started already in the Middle Ages and became even more accentuated after the Council of Trent. Hence it is not possible to understand the words of Sarah’s letter except by placing them within the context of the “form of life” that the Roman curia has imposed on its members for many centuries.
You can read the rest of this babble here. I can’t comment on the whole thing as sick as it is but think about what I highlight in red:
“Ever since the Roman Church has given itself a centralized bureaucracy...” What the hell? Read that again. This theologian has to be kidding.
And I suspect he worships Vatican II, ecclesiology, lay participation, the prospect of same sex and LGBTQ etc, marriage, doing away with Humanae vitae, enabling LBGTQetc ordination, and you name any other aberration and it is worshiped.
Where is Jesus Christ? Where is the Most Holy Trinity? Where is the Blessed Mother.
And the worst thing for Grillo? That a priest might say Mass by himself. What a joke!
Let me make a disclaimer. My preference is to say Mass with my parish. But occasionally I say a private Mass. I prefer at least an altar server, but that doesn’t always happen. Private Masses when I am not in my parish is the One Sacrifice of the Mass and always has an intention.
It is about Jesus, not just my private Mass and it is about my relationship to Jesus, not my relationship to a community. I don’t worship a community, I worship God. I hope you do too.
21 comments:
We heard all this when I was a kid in Catholic college, the whole gamut of things that were going to revitalize the Church and bring thousands of Protestants into a Catholic Church that was congenial to them. As the saying of the times went, "It's deja vu all over again."
Father, if you would stop reading Praytell and the Fishwrap, you would not only live longer, but also cut their readership and advertising revenue by 25%.
I read again parts (those that had dealt with Vatican II) of then-Cardinal Ratzinger's 1985 A.D. The Ratzinger Report.
As he has done for decades, now-Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI heaped praise upon the authentic Vatican II.
Via the Ratzinger Report, then-Cardinal Ratzinger had made clear that the fake Vatican II had inflicted damage upon Holy Mother Church.
But via The Ratzinger Report, then-Cardinal Ratzinger (as he has noted throughout the decades) reiterated that it is through the orthodox authentic Vatican II that the Church will blossom.
That has been demonstrated, for example, via the successful implementation of Vatican II in Africa, as well Asia.
As now-Pope Emeritus has made clear throughout the decades, the renewal of the Church is tied to the promotion of the holy, authentic, wonderful Vatican II texts.
As then-Cardinal Ratzinger declared in The Ratzinger Report:
"The reading of the letter of the documents will enable us to discover their true spirit.
"If thus rediscovered in their truth, those great texts will make it possible for us to understand just what happened and to react with a new vigor.
"I repeat: the Catholic who clearly and consequently, painfully perceives the damage that has been wrought in his Church by the misinterpretations of Vatican II must find the possibility of revival in Vatican II itself. T
"The Council is his, it does not belong to those who want to continue along a road whose results have been catastrophic."
The Church's New Springtime, such as one encounters, for example, in the Church in Africa, is found in the documents, as well as implementation, of the holy, wonderful, Second Sacred Vatican Ecumenical Council.
As our holy and great Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has made clear from 1962 A.D. to date, Vatican II is the key to the Church's renewal.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark, your elephant in the room which you ignore is that all the praise is heaped IF/WHEN implemented IN CONTINUITY with all which came before, which has NOT happened, and it a bloody disaster for the Church by that not staying in continuity.
That springtime in Africa of which he spoke was precisely because the churches there DID implement the teachings in continuity with all which came before....
Meanwhile, Europe and the USA have NOT done so, and rather than a springtime, are entering into a nuclear winter.
Mark Thomas,
Vatican II has been a colossal flop. Mass attendance has plummeted if you either bother to consider the facts. Churches have emptied, parishes have closed, religious institutions and schools have closed, and religious orders have been decimated. Some New Springtime. Your intellectual dishonest is breathtaking if you think Vatican II has been a success.
Were you even alive before the Council? If you were, you would know how much has been lost. By the way, you STILL will not tell us what your Golden Calf, Pope Francis, has done to discipline the gay clerics in the Vatican who were caught in a cocaine fueled gay sex orgy. Is that what you consider part of the "fruits of Vatican II" so it doesn't bother you?
Benedict XVI was a peritus at the Council, JP II was one of the participating bishops. They were too intimately involved with it to come up with a disinterested evaluation. The 'two popes' theory has been (rightly) ridiculed, although Benedict XVI's styling himself 'pope emeritus' muddied the waters. The 'two councils' theory is even more absurd. If, after nearly 60 years, the 'true Council' has yet to emerge, let alone be implemented, then its meaning cannot have been clear in the first place; furthermore the magisterium of popes and bishops by whose authority its decrees were implemented must have been either mistaken or so weak as to be overidden by a handful of progressive theologians aided and abetted by 'the media'.
To divorce a spurious 'spirit of Vatican II' from the Council itself gives some comfort to conservatives but it doesn't hold water. The argument of the progressives is actually more convincing. In this hermeneutic the revolution begun by the Council was aborted; firstly by Montini who in his last decade became fearful of change, and then by Wojtyla and Ratzinger who were reactionaries. The windows were opened but then slammed shut again. Progressives look to Francis to restart the revolution and are frustrated with his seeming ambiguity and lack of clear direction.
John Paul II and Benedict XVI reigned for a total of thirty-five years and the latter was effectively in charge for some years prior to his election. There was ample time to implement the 'true' Council, if such a thing existed. Of course it did not, so damage-limitation was the order of the day. When Benedict abdicated he had a good idea that Bergoglio would succeed him (he had been runner-up in the previous conclave) and was well aware of the agenda of Bergoglio's supporters. He, above all, was aware of the situation in Germany. Perhaps he realized that he had lost control of things and the best option was to trust in the Holy Ghost and let events run their course. We don't know and perhaps never shall.
John, in my world of if only...if only B16 had codified in an encyclical his points made at the Christmas speech to the Curia about the proper interpretation of Vatican II highlighting erroneous interpretations in each article/constitution of Vatican II and issuing some anathemas we could well be on the road to recovery. And if only Ratzinger had been elected at a much younger age.....
Fr Allan
As peritus to Cardinal Frings, Ratzinger was behind the agenda to undermine the influence and authority of the Holy Office. It was a supreme irony that in 1981 he was appointed to head the same dicastery (now renamed the CDF) and repair some of the damage he had helped to cause nearly two decades earlier.
Older and wiser, he did indeed identify 'erroneous' interpretations of the Council, and in particular questioned Paul VI's competence to impose a new liturgy on the Western Church, even though Paul claimed to have had the backing of a general Council.
My counterfactual take on history would be as follows: Had not Pius XII refused Montini a red hat and shuttled him off to Milan, he would have been elected pope in 1958. He would almost certainly not have summoned a Council. There would have been reform, including liturgical reform and a greater emphasis on ecumenical relations. The Curia would have been internationalized and the archaic court ceremonial considerably pruned. He would have reigned twenty years and probably been regarded as a great pope.
The revolution ushered in by Vatican II and its catastrophic effects would not have happened. The Church would have had to deal with societal changes which were accelerating throughout the twentieth century and certainly did not start in the 1960s, but would have been in a much better state to survive them.
Issuing anathemas would not have been in Ratzinger's style, and if he had followed the logic of so doing (and he was probably the most intellectual of popes since Leo XIII) he would probably have ended up anathematizing Vatican II itself. Perhaps a future pope will do so. Pope Francis had no direct involvement in the Council but by canonizing (simultaneously) John XXIII and Paul VI he was effectively canonizing Vatican II.
The best antidote to the Council, Pope John Paul I, died suddenly. It is my understanding that his Diocese did not go through the craziness following the Council that most did and he probably could have righted the ship. If true, his sudden death was a disaster of first magnitude for the Church. Sometimes I wonder if the "theories" surrounding his sudden death are true since so many critters in the Vatican had so much to lose, if he was the strong leader many claimed he was.
Father McDonald said..."if only B16 had codified in an encyclical his points made at the Christmas speech to the Curia about the proper interpretation of Vatican II highlighting erroneous interpretations in each article/constitution of Vatican II and issuing some anathemas we could well be on the road to recovery."
Bishop Schneider had called upon Pope Benedict XVI to compile a Syllabus of the errors promoted by those who had misinterpreted Vatican II.
Bishop Schneider had recognized the holy, tremendous value of Vatican II.
But the promotion of the fake Vatican II had prevented the authentic Vatican II from having flourished.
Bishop Schneider insisted that the eradication of the fake Vatican II's errors would unleash in positive fashion the real Vatican II.
Bishop Schneider declared that the Syllabus in regard to Vatican II, alongside holy, courageous pastors who rejected the "mentality of rupture," "constitute the indispensable condition so that doctrinal, liturgical, and pastoral confusion may diminish significantly, and so that the pastoral work of Vatican Council II may bear much lasting fruit..."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
Instead of cutting and pasting non sequiturs when are you finally going to tell us Pope Francis did to discipline the gay clerics in the Vatican who engaged in a cocaine fueled gay sex orgy. If he has done nothing it makes him look really bad as someone who does not take his job as pope very seriously. It should cause all of us concern, including you. Dancing around this issue is not a good look
Not long ago Bp Schneider was on MT's list of imaginary evil 'right-wingers'. What has changed?
John Nolan,
Well, "cut and pasting" has a higher priority than intellectual consistency.
Mister Nolan said..."Not long ago Bp Schneider was on MT's list of imaginary evil 'right-wingers'. What has changed?"
Bishop Schneider, the "imaginary" right-winger, is, of course, a right-winger.
I noted simply, in response to Father McDonald, that years ago, Bishop Schneider was on track with Father's comment in question. That is, that Bishop Schneider called upon Pope Benedict XVI to issue a Syllabus to condemn the false interpretations of Vatican II.
Pope Benedict XVI failed to issue said document.
Mister Nolan, in regard to your comment that Pope Benedict XVI's "'two councils' theory is even more absurd."
Cardinals Sarah, Burke, Müller, Zen, Brandmüller, as well as one Cardinal, and bishop, after another, have insisted that Vatican II has been hijacked via misinterpretation.
It is a given throughout the Church that there is the fake "spirit" of Vatican II Council, as well as authentic Vatican II.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's declaration in regard to "two" Councils is valid beyond question.
Example:
Cardinal Zen: In Vatican II, Catholics hear ‘real voice of the Holy Spirit’
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal-zen-in-vatican-council-ii-catholics-hear-real-voice-of-the-holy-spirit-62749
The authentic Council will topple the fake Council. The Church will experience Her New Springtime.
Pope Benedict XVI's teachings in regard to Vatican II will have carried the day.
He, alongside our holy Vatican II Era Popes who have defended, as well promoted the authentic Council, are on the winning team in regard to battle to topple the fake Vatican II.
Cardinals Sarah, Burke, Müller, Zen, Brandmüller, as well as one pro-authentic Vatican II Cardinal, and bishop, after another, are also on the winning team in question.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
Until you answer what Pope Francis did to discipline the gay clergy at the Vatican for engaging in a cocaine fueled gay sex orgy, we will deem your cut and paste comments utterly worthless. Have a nice day!
Mark Thomas,
What “winning team?” The Church is in a state of virtual collapse. Do you live in reality even part of the time?
Mister Nolan,
If your claims in regard to Pope Emeritus are correct, then during the past 60 years, he has been...sorry to say...a monumental hack...incompetent beyond question.
From the early 1960sto date, Pope Emeritus has been wrong in regard to the Church's most pressing issues, according to Mister Nolan.
================================================================================
-- Vatican II documents are 100 percent in line with Holy Tradition.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI...Yes.
Mister Nolan...Utter garbage.
===================================================================================
-- The horrific, destructive "spirit of Vatican II" is found within the Council's documents.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI...No.
Mister Nolan...Yes.
==================================================================================
-- Vatican II has been hijacked by destructive forces. There is the dominate fake Council. There is the authentic Council.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI...Yes.
Mister Nolan...Utter garbage.
==============================================================================
-- Vatican II has ruptured the One Church.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI...No.
Mister Nolan...Yes.
================================================================================
-- There isn't any contradiction between the Novus Ordo and TLM.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI...Correct.
Mister Nolan...Utter garbage.
=================================================================================
-- The Novus Ordo and TLM are two forms of the one Roman Rite.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI...Correct.
Mister Nolan...Utter garbage.
===================================================================================
If we believe Mister Nolan...
-- Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, during the past 60 years, has espoused utter garbage time and again.
-- Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has defended, as well as promoted, one horrific, Church-destroying teaching after another.
I won't even delve into Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's "Pope Emeritus" creation...
...his insistence that the modern Papacy requires Papal resignations as the norm...
...his unrelenting defense and and promotion of the Ecumenical Movement...
...his unrelenting defense and and promotion of interfaith "dialogue."...
...his unrelenting support of the United Nations...
...his declarations that climate-change is real...
...his promotions of United Nations climate-change initiatives.
...all of which Mister Nolan has found preposterous.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
John Nolan uses his God given powers of reason and logic, two gifts you apparently lack. You sound like a cult member, someone to be ignored.
Anonymous Pierre said..."Mark Thomas, John Nolan uses his God given powers of reason and logic, two gifts you apparently lack. You sound like a cult member, someone to be ignored."
I understand. You, as well as Mister Nolan, are the experts.
You have employed your powers of reason and logic to have discerned that during the past 60 years, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has been wrong in regard to the Church's most pressing issues.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has helped to smash the Church to pieces.
He has lacked your monumental powers of reason and logic.
He has demonstrated that via the unrelenting support that he has granted to Vatican II, Novus Ordo...via his "destructive" claims that Vatican II is orthodox, has blessed the Church...that the Novus Ordo, as well as TLM, are two forms of the one Roman Rite.
Okay. I understand.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has long been a Church-destroying incompetent...an utter hack.
Pierre, as well as Mister Nolan, thanks for having exposed Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI as a ruinous, horrific, Church-destroyer.
Yeah. Right. Sure.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"Indeed, Benedict XVI is certainly the one who understood Vatican II most deeply."
— Cardinal Sarah, 2021 A.D.
Mister Nolan said..."Benedict XVI was a peritus at the Council, JP II was one of the participating bishops. They were too intimately involved with it to come up with a disinterested evaluation."
Cardinal Sarah, 2021 A.D. "Indeed, Benedict XVI is certainly the one who understood Vatican II most deeply."
We are to disregard the evaluations of Vatican II offered by Popes Saint John Paul II, as well as Benedict XVI — experts with profound, inside knowledge on Vatican II.
However, we are to take seriously John Nolan's evaluation of Vatican II.
Unbelievable.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
John Nolan said..."Benedict XVI was a peritus at the Council, JP II was one of the participating bishops. They were too intimately involved with it to come up with a disinterested evaluation."
The evaluations of Vatican II offered by Popes Saint John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, have served as vital contributions to the orthodox interpretation, as well as orthodox implementation, of Vatican II.
-- Popes Saint John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, were key participants at Vatican II.
-- Said Popes were holy men of tremendous integrity.
-- Empowered by God, Popes Saint John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, pronounced knowingly, as well as authoritatively, upon Vatican II.
I find it difficult to believe that anybody in his or her right mind would cast doubt upon the evaluations of Vatican II issued by Popes Saint John Paul II, and Benedict XVI.
If anything, as per his profound insider knowledge of the Council, as well as tremendous holiness and integrity, Pope Benedict XVI's evaluation of Vatican II tops the list in question.
As Cardinal Sarah declared recently: "Indeed, Benedict XVI is certainly the one who understood Vatican II most deeply."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
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