Friday, September 29, 2017

NEW BISHOP AND NEW CHURCH, BUT WILL IT BE CATHOLIC?

I am somewhat left with writer's cramp but Praytell has this translation of the Austrian media report story on the new bishop of Innsbruck, Austria, appointed by Pope Francis:

Is this a fake translation?

Newly Named Bishop of Innsbruck Advocates for Women Deacons

Hermann Glettler, recently appointed bishop in Innsbruck, said that he is “definitely for” the admission of women to the diaconate. Now that the pope has appointed a commission on women deacons, Glettler would be very happy if it “came into the home stretch relatively soon and were decided positively.”

Asked about ordination of females priests, Glettler said this is “not so (optimistic).” But first steps are needed such as female deacons.

Asked if he is open to giving Communion to the divorced and remarried, the bishop-to-be responded, “Very.” To give Communion to those whose marriage failed and live in a new relationship has “very, very much sense based on the Gospel.” But it is also sensible to accompany those who come to the conclusion that they will not receive Communion. It is a matter of “accompanying, distinguishing, and then leaving open whether someone says, I will deliberately go to Communion or I will deliberation forego this, based on specific inner motives.”

32 comments:

John Nolan said...

Doesn't this sort of report disturb the Mark Thomases of this world? Doesn't it make the 'correctio filialis', which is gathering signatures as we speak, make even more sense? Not to mention a more important 'correctio' from the cardinals which is in the pipeline.

As Cardinal Burke points out, it is a case of apostasy rather than schism. If Francis allows women deacons (and there is no indication that he will) then a formal schism cannot be avoided.

Quod Deus avertat. Yet Mark Thomas will interpret it as a bunch of 'right-wingers' assaulting Jesus Christ himself. I have read a lot of nonsense in my lifetime, but his animadversions truly take the biscuit.

TJM said...

John Nolan,

I doubt this will bother Mark Thomas who engages in idol worship. I suspect Mark gets up every morning and sings "Long Live the Pope."

Tom Makin said...

Behold the Holy Father's hand. There is no shock in this...if accurate. In American terms, the Holy Father is doing exactly what any temporal leader in this country would do; appoint like minded persons to positions of authority such that his legacy is assured for generations. The downstream effect of all of this...ALL OF THIS, is a re-pointing of Holy Mother Church in the fashion intended by many of the church fathers who came out of Vatican II and all the seminaries of that day. The saving grace is that the newly ordained today are not wholly in accord with this and the pendulum will swing as the last vestiges of the old guard die off. All of this is a last gasp of an old pontiff.

Anonymous said...

Should I become Orthodox?

Henry said...

TMJ,

Do you recall the days just a few years ago when we could sing

"Full in the panting heart of Rome . . . God bless our Pope, the great, the good."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftkljReYeaA

on Petrine feast--without irony at those last four words, indeed, with hearts swollen with pride in our Holy Father then so gloriously reigning in full Faith and Truth? Spend a few minutes listening and watching, and rekindle your memories of a time so sadly gone.

rcg said...

Sorry to repeat an old story but I guess that is proof that I, myself, am getting old. The night before I enlisted my father, a Navy man, told me the captain was a son of a gun, but that he was MY son of a gun. This is MY pope and it is up to me to loyally help him when he needs it even if it pisses him off. FWIW, if we do this right and a correction is needed and made it is not a cause for shame but an example for the many people in irregular marriages and homosexuals who want to be near the Lord in His Church. Holding a man down to give him medicine is an act of mercy.

TJM said...

Henry,

Yes, I recall those days. Sadly, the current pontiff is not gloriously reigning. He's a Marxist, first and foremost.

Anonymous said...

'Should I become Orthodox?'

There are those in the Orthodox churches who advocate for the ordination of women as well. The grass is not greener.

Joe Potillor said...

Anonoymus at 1045, at this point, itd be hard to say advise no.

Mark Thomas said...

John Nolan said..."Doesn't this sort of report disturb the Mark Thomases of this world? I have read a lot of nonsense in my lifetime, but his animadversions truly take the biscuit."

TJM said..."I doubt this will bother Mark Thomas who engages in idol worship. I suspect Mark gets up every morning and sings "Long Live the Pope."

Anonymous said..."Should I become Orthodox?"

To each of you: Does it shake your faith to contemplate that...

-- Jesus Christ anointed as bishops men who betrayed and abandoned him? Judas sold out Jesus Christ. Our first Pope three times denied Jesus Christ.

-- From the beginning of the Church, She has been rocked time and again by chaos, schism, and heresy within Her ranks?

-- That Pope Venerable Pius XII authorized Monsignor Bugnini and additional "Freemasons" and "modernists" to concoct radical liturgical that he, Pope Venerable Pius XII, then impressed by fiat upon the Church?

-- That Pope Venerable Pius XII elevated to the ranks of Cardinal and bishop one "modernist" after another who, in turn, gave us Vatican II?

-- That Pope Blessed Paul VI followed Pope Venerable Pius XII's lead in having empowered Monsignor Bugnini to continue the "radical" liturgical reform that was launched in 1947 A.D. by Pope Venerable Pius XII?

-- That many bishops failed in 1968 A.D. to support Pope Blessed Paul VI when said Pontiff blessed us with Humanae Vitae?

-- That throughout the reign of Pope Saint John Paul II, various bishops and priests had spoken well of female ordination to the priesthood...contraception...

-- That Pope Benedict XVI worshiped at Rome's Lutheran Church, prayed in a synagogue and mosque...shared the stage at Assisi III which, in turn, featured a voodoo witch doctor who invoked a strange god?

Assisi III: Pagan Gods Invoked in Catholic Basilica at Benedict XVI's Event

http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/125f8caf21956ffad9087b7e1e2b44a7-520.html

Does all of the above shake your faith? None of the above shakes my faith.

There isn't anything that His Holiness Pope Francis has said and/or done that has shaken my faith.

Flee to Eastern Orthodoxy...I will remain within the True Church, united unshakably, as God has commanded me, to the Roman Pontiff.

All that I need to know is no matter how things in the Church may...may...seem, "in the Apostolic See the Catholic Religion has always been preserved immaculate.

I have childlike faith.

Pax.

Mark Thomas




Mark Thomas said...

John Nolan said..."Doesn't this sort of report disturb the Mark Thomases of this world? Doesn't it make the 'correctio filialis', which is gathering signatures as we speak, make even more sense?"

No. The "correction" is a piece of trash that doesn't make more sense as we speak.

As to the report in question...that doesn't disturb me...my faith...as God is with me, a lowly nobody who, nevertheless, has the faith of a child in regard to God and His Holy Catholic Church.

What am I supposed to do about the report, if correct, in question? Breakdown? Collapse? Throw in with the rage and insanity that abound within the right-wing world of the Filial Correction Club"

What should I do? Shout..."Pope Francis is the Evil Clown, heretic, St. Gallen Mafia, Pope Benedict XVI is the real Pope, Amoris Laetitia is heretical, homosexuals control everything, George Soros and the Jews control everything..."

Sorry, but I don't want any part of the Filial Correction Club's fantasy world.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

mark thomas, it's not a childlike faith, it's an uninformed faith. Immerse yourself in the Summa Theologica and then come back

Henry said...

TMJ,

I'm not reading junk posts these days, but is the difference between childlike faith and childish (i.e, infantile) faith pertinent here?

Mark Thomas said...

TJM:

"...whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."

— Pope Saint Pius X, 1912 A.D.

=====================================================

Pope Leo XIII:

-- Pope Leo XIII: “To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment, and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.

"Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.”

(Epistola Tua)

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

Henry,

Agreed. I suspect MT is lonely and gets his jollies posting this utter garbage.

Anonymous said...

It is unlikely the Eastern Orthodox ever would ordain women priests, given how traditional their sanctuaries are. I believe some Orthodox bishop ordained a deaconess recently---but----the deaconess has not been seen as the equivalent of the male deacon---they had different roles (for a deaconess, basically helping women prepare for baptism). As an Orthodox deacon told me last weekend, deaconesses did not have the same role as deacons. But hey, Atlanta this weekend has its annual Greek Orthodox festival near Decatur and that will give me a chance to ask their clergy about the issue. Their Atlanta cathedral has beautiful icons, on their dome (who knows how many---millions"). I've never quite understood though the iconnoclasis (the separation from the rest of the sanctuary).

DJR said...

Henry said... TMJ, I'm not reading junk posts these days, but is the difference between childlike faith and childish (i.e, infantile) faith pertinent here?

Mark's confusion and errors (God love him) stem from the fact that he believes, based on a Good Friday prayer that he takes literally, that the Holy Spirit directly chooses popes.

Therefore, in Mark's mind, to go against the pope is to directly oppose the Holy Spirit.

How that would work out with Pope Formosus and Pope Stephen VI (who declared Formosus' papacy invalid) and Pope Sergius III (who did the same thing) is anyone's guess.

1. He believes that the Holy Spirit directly chooses popes.

DJR, in discussing whether popes are directly chosen by God: "In 1997 A.D., then Cardinal Ratzinger offered his opinion upon the issue in question. Is his opinion correct?"

Mark Thomas: "I don't accept his opinion. No."

2. Mark believes that a person can publicly deny papal infallibility and the Virgin birth and still be an orthodox Catholic, e.g., Hans Kung.

Mark Thomas: "The True Church has determined that Father Hans Küng has not separated himself from the Faith. The Catholic Church has determined that Father Hans Küng has not fallen into schism/heresy. Pax. Mark Thomas."


3. Mark also believes that a person can be pro-abortion and an orthodox Catholic at the same time.

Mark Thomas: "Father Drinan's proabortion voting record was known to Church authorities. Nevertheless, Church authorities recognized Father Drinan as a priest in good standing with the Church. That means that Father Drinan was recognized as an orthodox priest. Correct. Pax. Mark Thomas."


Utter confusion.

TJM said...

I am starting to think that the left-wing, National Catholic Reporter, pays Mark Thomas, to post here.

As Father Z would say, "don't feed the trolls."

Mark Thomas said...

DJR, I recall our exchanges in regard to the priests in question.

Please cite when the Church excommunicated or suspended Fathers Drinan, Curran, and Küng. (Father Drinan died prior to Pope Francis' Pontificate.)

Thank you.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

DJR said..."Therefore, in Mark's mind, to go against the pope is to directly oppose the Holy Spirit."

Does the Church teach that we may oppose the Pope?

==========================================================

"...whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."

— Pope Saint Pius X, 1912 A.D.

=====================================================

Pope Leo XIII:

-- Pope Leo XIII: “To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment, and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.

"Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.”

(Epistola Tua)

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

DJR said..."Mark also believes that a person can be pro-abortion and an orthodox Catholic at the same time."

As you know, I noted the following: "Father Drinan's proabortion voting record was known to Church authorities. Nevertheless, Church authorities recognized Father Drinan as a priest in good standing with the Church. That means that Father Drinan was recognized as an orthodox priest."

That is correct. He remained in good standing with the Church.

Sorry, but the Church never suspended Father Drinan. The Church never excommunicated Father Drinan.

Father Drinan was recognized by the Church as a priest in good standing with his bishop(s).

That is a fact.

Please document when, for example, the Church excommunicated Father Drinan.

Sorry, DJR, your beef is with the Church, not with me.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

John Nolan said...

Mark also thinks that Fr Zuhlsdorf, Fr Hunwicke, Fr Ray Blake, the contributors to Rorate, perhaps even Fr MacDonald are part of a vast 'right-wing' satanic conspiracy to discredit Pope Francis. It never seems to have occurred to him that Francis, by his actions and perhaps even more by his inaction, has drawn this criticism upon himself.

John Nolan said...

One of the points raised in the 1980 'Firing Line' broadcast by both Michael Davies and Malachi Martin was why Hans Küng, who had recently lost his 'missio canonica' (but not his professorial chair) for writings which were plainly heretical, remained a priest in good standing, whereas Marcel Lefebvre (who was undeniably orthodox) was suspended 'a divinis', a much greater sanction.

Mark Thomas is fond of quoting St Pius X - 'Whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope'. When he is teaching magisterially, or confirming the brethren in matters of faith and morals, then this is indeed so. It does not mean that everyone must agree with the pope. There are many who think that Pius X's reform of the Breviary was unfortunate and misguided. The 'Ostpolitik' pursued by Paul VI and Casaroli was not only misguided, but one of its fruits, the disgraceful treatment of Archbishop Mindszenty, was positively wicked. I dissented then, and still do.

Pope Francis's remarks on the heresiarch Martin Luther are possibly based on theological and historical ignorance, or were written for him by someone else, but there is no reason why any Catholic should assent to them, and every reason why they should not.

The only senior prelate who publicly rushed to condemn Benedict XVI for his 2006 Regensburg lecture, which was in retrospect one the most significant observations by a pope in half a century, was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, one Jorge Bergoglio.

No point in asking Mark's view on this, since he will no doubt reiterate, and at even greater length, the same old and tired arguments.

TJM said...

John Nolan,

All of your points are excellent. I for one was appalled that Paul VI caved into the communists during the Mindzenty affair. Cardinal Mindzenty was imprisoned, tortured and put through a show trial. President Eisenhower did more for Mindzenty than the Vatican, providing him with sanctuary in the American Embassy in Budapest. Then mama's boy, Paul VI, who was not fit to tie the Cardinal's shoelace, removed him as Primate of Hungary to appease the communists. Pope Francis is of the same ilk, and for that reason alone, I lost respect for him. As I stated earlier, Mark Thomas is likely part of the vast left-wing anti-Catholic media conspiracy, headed by the National Catholic Reporter. He's a troll and I shall no longer feed him.

Mark Thomas said...

John Nolan said..."Mark also thinks that Fr Zuhlsdorf, Fr Hunwicke, Fr Ray Blake, the contributors to Rorate, perhaps even Fr MacDonald are part of a vast 'right-wing' satanic conspiracy to discredit Pope Francis."

Mister Nolan, I request respectfully that you not spread a lie about me. Please provide the quote or quotes from my posts to Father's blog to support your above statement.

As to Father McDonald, I have stated several times on Father's blog that he is a holy priest. I have great respect for Father McDonald. He is a loyal son of Holy Mother Church.

In regard to His Holiness Pope Francis, Father McDonald has made it clear that he will never break communion with the Pope. Father McDonald has defended Pope Francis against the endless fake news reports, including those circulated by the right-wing, that have been concocted to attack Pope Francis.

Mister Nolan, here is what Father McDonald has said about the right-wing:

FAKE NEWS, SECULAR AND RELIGIOUS--IT'S GOT TO END, PRAY GOD!

http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2017/07/fake-news-secular-and-religious-its-got.html

"We all know that so much of the 24 hour a day news on the cable news shows and on network broadcast stations is fake news.

"But the same is true about some right wing Catholic blogs who report hearsay and malicious gossip about Pope Francis and others in the hierarchy, but particularly Pope Francis. I would say that in days gone by this could have led to excommunication of Catholics. Perhaps it should return and with a vengeance.

"1Peter5 has a remarkable story today that I would classify as fake news. It is scurrilous and not worthy of Catholics reporting such nonsense as news when it is simply fabrication."

My assessment of much of the right-wing blogosphere is in line with Father McDonald's above comments.

Mister Nolan, you denounce my negative assessments of vicious right-wing Catholics who traffic in fake news that is designed to discredit Pope Francis. Do you intend to denounce Father McDonald's comments in question?

Pax.

Mark Thomas

J.R.R. Tolkien said...

“I know quite well that, to you as to me, the Church which once felt like a refuge, now often feels like a trap. There is nowhere else to go! (I wonder if this desperate feeling, the last state of loyalty hanging on, was not, even more often than is actually recorded in the Gospels, felt by Our Lord's followers in His earthly life-time?) I think there is nothing to do but to pray, for the Church, the Vicar of Christ, and for ourselves; and meanwhile to exercise the virtue of loyalty, which indeed only becomes a virtue when one is under pressure to desert it.”
Letter 306, 1968

Mark Thomas said...

TJM said..."I stated earlier, Mark Thomas is likely part of the vast left-wing anti-Catholic media conspiracy, headed by the National Catholic Reporter. He's a troll and I shall no longer feed him."

TJM, you declared days, weeks, and months ago that you were finished with me. Please follow through on your..."I'm through with Mark Thomas"...declarations.

I am fine with that. Please ignore me. TJM, follow through this time...which is about the 10th time that you've declared that you will cease to converse with me.

As to the following about me: "Mark Thomas is likely part of the vast left-wing anti-Catholic media conspiracy, headed by the National Catholic Reporter. He's a troll..."

Preposterous. Lies.

Finally, you have denounced many times my submission, which God has commanded, to the Roman Pontiff. You have worked overtime to discredit Holy Mother Church's teachings related to the unwavering submission that Catholics must grant unto the Pope.

TJM, you oppose God's command that we submit with docility to the Roman Pontiff's awesome authority to teach, govern, and sanctify us.

TJM, I pray that you submit to His Holiness Pope Francis. Anyway, TJM, you do not have answers to the following:

"...whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope." (Pope Saint Pius X, 1912 A.D.)

Pope Leo XIII: “To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment, and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.

"Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.”

(Epistola Tua)

Pax.

Mark Thomas

John Nolan said...

Mark Thomas

TJM may have finished with you, but I have not.

1. You describe the 'correctio' as 'trash' and 'garbage'. Have you actually read it, including the references, in its entirety? And if so, have you properly understood it?

2. Do you question their right to issue such a correction?

3. Is there anything in the document that you can prove to be wrong on point of fact?

4. Is there nothing in the document which is not self-evident to an unbiased observer?

5. Have you met any of the signatories? On what grounds do you dismiss them out of hand?

That will do for now. If you can see your way to making a measured response to each of the above 'dubia' then we can perhaps make progress. Were you, or anyone else, to put similar questions to me, I would do my best to reply honestly.


DJR said...

Mark: "Sorry, but the Church never suspended Father Drinan. The Church never excommunicated Father Drinan. Father Drinan was recognized by the Church as a priest in good standing with his bishop(s). That is a fact. Please document when, for example, the Church excommunicated Father Drinan. Sorry, DJR, your beef is with the Church, not with me.

But, Mark, you don't seem to recognize that it was your underlying premise that was wrong, and that's what has led you to a wrong conclusion.

You, unbelievably, defend the position that a pro-abortion stance is consistent with Catholic orthodoxy (Father Drinan, priest in good standing until death) and that the denial of papal infallibility is also consistent with Catholic orthodoxy (Father Kung, priest in good standing).

And the reason you defend that position stems from the basic premise you posited way back when, i.e., the idea that a person who is in communion with the reigning Roman pontiff is, by that fact alone, orthodox.

But that's not true. It cannot be true.

Where did you get that idea? The Catholic Church does not teach such a thing.

Orthodoxy does not depend on being in apparent communion with the pope; orthodoxy depends on whether a person accepts everything that the Catholic Church teaches.

A person can be in putative communion with the pope and still deny an aspect of Catholic teaching. There are millions of Catholics who do so.

They are not orthodox.

Example: Belief in papal infallibility is orthodox. The denial of papal infallibility is not orthodox.

You believe in papal infallibility, and you are in communion with Pope Francis.

Hans Kung does not believe in papal infallibility, and he is in communion with Pope Francis.

But it is not possible for both of you to be orthodox.

Your position is that both of you are orthodox because you are both in communion with the pope, and neither one of you has been disciplined by Pope Francis.

However, that belief violates right reason and Catholic teaching.

Mark, you are the one who has the problem with the Church in that regard, not me.

Your position is that being proabortion can be consistent with Catholic orthodoxy. There are no words to describe how wrong your position is on this point.

DJR said...

Mark Thomas said... "Does the Church teach that we may oppose the Pope?"

When the pope is wrong, yes, the Church teaches Catholics may, and have a duty to, oppose the pope.

That's why Catholics opposed His Holiness Pope Stephen VI when he declared Pope Formosus' papacy to be invalid.

It's also why Catholics opposed His Holiness Pope Sergius III, who later did the same thing.

You yourself oppose both those popes. You do not accept their rulings in regard to the legitimacy of Pope Formosus.

We have discussed this prior.

It is an historical fact that those two popes declared Pope Formosus to be an antipope and annulled all his acts and his ordinations.

Yet several popes (Theodore II and John IX) contradicted those popes and declared Formosus to be a true pope.

It is impossible for a Catholic to agree with both positions; therefore, he/she must oppose at least two popes.

Catholics at the time did so. It's an undeniable historical fact.

So, the answer to your question, again, is unequivocally yes.

TJM said...

John Nolan,

You are a patient soul. I am fatigued from dealing with a person who appears to be non compos mentes.

Anonymous said...

Mentis