Lions, turtles and alligators, o my!
I read a few minutes ago the beautiful and uplifting sermon that His Holiness Pope Francis offered just a few hours ago in Rome.I hope to conform myself to the sentiments that our Holy Father's sermon contains.After having read Pope Francis' great and uplifting sermon, none of the "controversies" that are current within the Church can possibly mar the joy and peace that Our Lord Jesus Christ has for me...for us.Pax.Mark Thomas"In the Apostolic See the Catholic Religion has always been preserved immaculate."— The Formula of Pope Saint Hormisdas (529 A.D.).
Well at least Francis didn't call Cardinal Burke an SOB from the altar. Silver linings.
Yes, however he said Jesus was a "migrant" he just cannot stop himself and his love of the MUSLIM INVADERS, and for pete's sake those ghastly and boring vestments AGAIN, could he not even wear gold and silver vestments to please and give glory to Our Lord??
Anonymous,The Holy Family did migrate as refugees. As for Moslems, a pope certainly should not express fondness for any sort of invasion by them. And, since there are merits to both sides of the noble-versus-simple vestments debate, perhaps we can cut the Holy Father some slack for Christmas.
Gold and Silver vestments "give glory to Our Lord"?What a limited sense of God you must have, thinking that God can be impressed with some style of vestment...
Ummm-duh...gold and silver vestments, ornate and beautiful churches, all the regal trappings are for us, not God. God does not need our puny offerings, however, we are commanded to give Him our best and to worship Him in awe and wonder. The splendor and finery remind us that He is Sovereign Creator and Ruler of the universe and that we live by His great mercy and grace. We are saved by this knowledge and belief...by the humility and contrition born in us by His birth into humble conditions. The contrast between God's glory and majesty (represented by the vestments, etc.) and His humility in the Christ child is meant to create in us an awareness of our unworthiness and our need for salvation. It is not meant to engender whining and arguments regarding the vestments. Such an attitude, it seems to me, indicates a theology of Arianism and humanism.
BTW, the statement that Jesus was a "migrant," is about the dumbest statement I have ever heard and represents a ridiculous effort to cater to current political and social fads. The illegal aliens flooding into our country and the Muslim heretics and radicals flooding into Europe are NOT "migrants." They are law-breakers, undesirables, and terrorists. For the Church to support such an invasion and to support "sanctuary" cities is scandalous and an insult to believing Christians everywhere.
What sort of person can view photos like those here of midnight Mass at the London Oratory without seeing how beauty and splendor give glory and fitting worship to God (even in the ordinary form, as shown)? Perhaps the sort of person who (contrary to longtime Catholic thought) believes that truth and beauty lie in the eye of the beholder, rather than in the eye of God.
Henry,Totally agree with you regarding the praxis at the London Oratory.Gene, when the Pope uses analogies like this (which is no analogy since Christ was not a migrant) I realize that the Pope is either not very bright or because he is a leftist to the core who politicizes the sacred for political ends.
Pope Venerable Pius XII, 1952 A.D.EXSUL FAMILIA NAZARETHANA Apostolic Constitution "The émigré Holy Family of Nazareth, fleeing into Egypt, is the archetype of every refugee family. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, living in exile in Egypt to escape the fury of an evil king, are, for all times and all places, the models and protectors of every migrant, alien and refugee of whatever kind who, whether compelled by fear of persecution or by want, is forced to leave his native land, his beloved parents and relatives, his close friends, and to seek a foreign soil."Pax.Mark Thomas
Pope Benedict XVI, 2006 A.D."On the occasion of the coming World Day of Migrants and Refugees, and looking at the Holy Family of Nazareth, icon of all families, I would like to invite you to reflect on the condition of the migrant family."The evangelist Matthew narrates that shortly after the birth of Jesus, Joseph was forced to leave for Egypt by night, taking the child and his mother with him, in order to flee the persecution of king Herod. "Making a comment on this page of the Gospel, my venerable Predecessor, the Servant of God Pope Pius XII, wrote in 1952: “The family of Nazareth in exile, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, emigrants and taking refuge in Egypt to escape the fury of an evil king, are the model, the example and the support of all emigrants and pilgrims of every age and every country, of all refugees of any condition who, compelled by persecution and need, are forced to abandon their homeland, their beloved relatives, their neighbors, their dear friends, and move to a foreign land”.=====================================================================Pope Benedict XVI continued:"In this misfortune experienced by the Family of Nazareth, obliged to take refuge in Egypt, we can catch a glimpse of the painful condition in which all migrants live, especially, refugees, exiles, evacuees, internally displaced persons, those who are persecuted. "We can take a quick look at the difficulties that every migrant family lives through, the hardships and humiliations, the deprivation and fragility of millions and millions of migrants, refugees and internally displaced people. "The Family of Nazareth reflects the image of God safeguarded in the heart of every human family, even if disfigured and weakened by emigration."Pax.Mark Thomas
Pope Saint John Paul II, 1996 A.D.“I was a stranger and you welcomed me” (Mt 25:35). It is the Church’s task not only to present constantly the Lord’s teaching of faith but also to indicate its appropriate application to the various situations which the changing times continue to create. "Today the illegal migrant comes before us like that “stranger” in whom Jesus asks to be recognized. "To welcome him and to show him solidarity is a duty of hospitality and fidelity to Christian identity itself."Pax.Mark Thomas
Did Joseph terrorise the Egyptians while living abroad? This analogy to the plite of the Holy Family and modern Europe is manufactured in the most cynical, and diabolical, way.
The Holy Family was indeed a refugee family fleeing immediate danger to their Son as well as them. But when the danger was over, they went back, and this is the great difference for refugees today. Most refugees today do intend to go back once there is safety in their home country, but that safety rarely happens quickly anymore. The years pass by, the children grow up in the host country, and it becomes problematic to go back. Syria has been torn apart by barberous violence, and there are so many refugees fleeing it. My problem with this is that there is discrimination and opportunism taking place. Not all of Syria is at war, so there has been created an opportunity for ecomomic migrants seeking a better life in Europe and elsewhere. There is nothing wrong seeking a better life elsewhere, but their lives are not in immediate danger, whereas others' are. There are the Christians and many Shia Muslims who are basically outcasts in the emmigration from Syria and are targets for ISIS and the Sunni rebels. Sunnis comprise most of the migrants fleeing and coming to the USA which many wealthy Sunni countries do not seem to be willing to take in.
Which is better, gold or silver? Which is more beautiful, hand-picked or machine woven fabric? Do we reach a higher plane of worship as the thread count goes up?If a person needs gold or silver to worship God fittingly, then, again, that person has a pretty port appreciation of God.
Of course not. One does not give a nice gift to impose a greater obligation on the recipient or to improve one's position with the other person. Such an exchange is a bribe. To give a gift of great value as an inadequate expression of love with no expectation in return is a display for the benefit of others. Done with some degree of humility and discretion, even anonymity, can help validate the purity of the gift. Accompanied by a similar, or greater, gift of charity strengthens the act.
Vestments aren't "gifts."God does not benefit from what a priest wears at Mass.Are gold and silver more "pure" than other materials? Are they more "beautiful"? No.
Anon, you are correct but that is not the point anyone here has made.
Anonymous, you clearly don't get it and never will. Here is a hint: it ain't about us.
Mark Thomas, you and the Pope must have attended the same school of history: Marxist/Leninism, where facts do not matter. When Christ was born in Bethlemen, the City of David, he was certainly not an immigrant, but in the City of his Country of origin. The term emigre means that you are LEAVING your country of national origin.
Mr. Gene - Worries about whether the vesture is gold or silver, silk or cotton, embroidered or plain are ALL about us.None of this means anything to God.So when someone complains about "ghastly and boring vestments" and that gold and silver vestments give greater glory than simpler styles, that person is merely projecting his/her own preferences. These things are utterly meaningless to God. And to think God is concerned about such makes God a pretty petty sort of liturgical designer...
TJM, I quoted three Popes. I am just the messenger.Example: Pope Venerable Pius XII, 1952 A.D., EXSUL FAMILIA NAZARETHANA "The émigré Holy Family of Nazareth, fleeing into Egypt, is the archetype of every refugee family."Jesus, Mary and Joseph, living in exile in Egypt to escape the fury of an evil king, are, for all times and all places, the models and protectors of every migrant, alien and refugee of whatever kind who, whether compelled by fear of persecution or by want, is forced to leave his native land, his beloved parents and relatives, his close friends, and to seek a foreign soil."===============================================================I am just the messenger.Pax.Mark Thomas
Anonymous, I already told you above that God does not need anything from us. That is theology 101. WE are commanded to worship him in a way that acknowledges His majesty and sovereignty, not because he needs it (although the OT does speak of certain forms of worship as being pleasing to God), but because it creates in us a humility and wonder at the mystery of His Incarnation and Salvation. So, we build nice churches and Priests wear nice vestments because these are generally representative of what most people consider finery. Now, if you want to go the "Man of Sorrows" route, get you an old refrigerator crate and stand it up somewhere for your church, cut a door in it, then cut arm and leg holes in an old feed sack and wear it as a garment. I'll come strew some broken glass on the floor of the box for you to kneel on while you flog yourself with a wire coat hanger. This may or may not please God, but it would please the Hell out of me.
As mere human creatures, whatever we do or offer cannot in even the smallest way compare to what God can do. He does however appreciate it when we do or give him our best.When a small child gives something to a parent out of love and gratitude, no matter how insignificant a gift it may be, does not that parent appreciate it? So it is with God also.
Mark, the logical flaw in your position is called reducio ad absurdam. All refugees are not the same as the Holy Family as all prisoners are not St Paul. They all deserve humane treatment but not the same treatment.
What are "nice" vestments? What are "beautiful" vestments?These are qualities that cannot be quantified. What some consider "nice" and/or "beautiful" are matters of personal taste.Clean and in good repair we can measure."What most people consider finery" is another undefinable. "Most people" in what time or culture? "Most people" of what age? Teens? Young adults? Middle aged folks? Europeans? Africans? Micronesians?Even within a particular age group within a particular cultural group, there are variations.Do all Italian teens agree on what is "finery"? Hardly.Do all elderly Japanese agree on what is "beautiful"? Not by any stretch.What many here seem to be saying is "This is what I prefer and I want everyone to share my preferences." That is, of course, a pipe dream.And what pleases you is none of my concern...
Alright, Anonymous, back into your refrigerator box and get with the Hail Mary's and mea culpas...
Anonymous 4.44 pm - I suggest that you bone up on Exodus 28 as to the priestly garments. Also, I will repeat what a priest once said when told he should be using pottery vessels on the altar: "When a man and woman exchange pottery rings at their wedding then I might consider it. No, it must be diamonds and fine gold for my beloved and yet they begrudge it to God". Are you begrudging to God?
Mark Thomas, you cannot equate the refugees referred to by the three Popes you quote to the economic migrants - mainly young men - who are pouring into Europe. It is reported that two out of three are engaged in unlawful activities and of course we are well aware of the murderous and violent activities some of these migrants have engaged in. As they have passed through many countries to get to Germany and other European countries they cannot be considered as refugees. Francis would do better to look after the poor in Italy as should other countries before welcoming these economic migrants who have taken the homes of some of the elderly and war veterans, for example, in Britain. The whole thing is shameful and Francis should not be supporting what is the Islamisation of Europe at the expense of Christianity.
Miss Jan, are you saying that Catholic priests should be wearing, "...a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a woven tunic, a turban and a sash"? Because that's what Exodus 28 commands.Of course, you are not. But what you are doing is picking and choosing which parts of Exodus 28 to follow and which to reject.That's not exactly a kosher approach to understanding Scripture.
Mr Anonymous you stated at 6.34 pm: "What a limited sense of God you must have, thinking that God can be impressed with some style of vestment..." Then at 10:39 you go on to state " "...a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a woven tunic, a turban and a sash" commanded by God in Exodus. Your second statement proves that your first statement is utter nonsense and that it is you in fact that has the limited sense of God.Jan
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